360- best shmup system since???
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professor ganson
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Re: 360- best shmup system since???
Too much Saturn love here. Does the Saturn have ANY good true-exclusives? Blast Wind is a true-exclusive, but doesn't begin to compare with PS1's Harmful Park, Einhaender, Gradius Gaiden, and R-Type Delta-- none of which were in the arcade, iirc.
Like the Saturn, the PS2 and 360 are mainly about arcade ports. At least PS2 has Gradius V as a true exclusive (and maybe a few others I'm not remembering atm). Is Parodius just on the 360 or is it also an arcade title? You have to go back to the PS1 for a console that consistently delivered novel shmup content.
HOWEVER: new content has been present on the 360 and PS2 in the way of additional modes. That has made these recent Cave ports especially nice, and I hope that is a trend that will continue.
Like the Saturn, the PS2 and 360 are mainly about arcade ports. At least PS2 has Gradius V as a true exclusive (and maybe a few others I'm not remembering atm). Is Parodius just on the 360 or is it also an arcade title? You have to go back to the PS1 for a console that consistently delivered novel shmup content.
HOWEVER: new content has been present on the 360 and PS2 in the way of additional modes. That has made these recent Cave ports especially nice, and I hope that is a trend that will continue.
Re: 360- best shmup system since???
Arguments about "true" exclusives only hold water if the individual collects expensive arcade PCBs. Arguments about per-console exclusives only hold water if the individual doesn't have a large console collection.
That said.. I gotta go for "since DC" for the kinds of shooters I like! Not to say Saturn and PS2 didn't have a fair chunk of good shmups too. And Turbografx..
(just wanted to add that one on there).
And, to throw another argument out there: I think the later you go in console generations since the mid 90s, the less variety in shmup styles a system has. These days you mostly just see Cave and Milestone. That's too bad.
That said.. I gotta go for "since DC" for the kinds of shooters I like! Not to say Saturn and PS2 didn't have a fair chunk of good shmups too. And Turbografx..

And, to throw another argument out there: I think the later you go in console generations since the mid 90s, the less variety in shmup styles a system has. These days you mostly just see Cave and Milestone. That's too bad.
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professor ganson
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Re: 360- best shmup system since???
Arguments about true-exclusives ARE relevant when you are thinking about a console's contribution to the history of shmups, about what makes a console distinctive or important relative to other systems.louisg wrote:Arguments about "true" exclusives only hold water if the individual collects expensive arcade PCBs. Arguments about per-console exclusives only hold water if the individual doesn't have a large console collection.
Part of what makes these questions about significance so murky is not just all the differences in taste, but also all the differences in temporal perspective. Right now the Japanese Saturn is largely irrelevant thanks to MAME and so true-exclusives do matter if you are thinking about the relevance of the system now. That is changing, though, as console emulators get better.
Things look different 10+ years ago when importing a Saturn or PS1 was the only affordable way to play the games in question, and from that perspective true-exclusives matter little.
Yet another perspective is from some distant future where we imagine all shmups to be available in some future super emulator, and you just think about what each console contributed to that list of shmups. True-exclusives again become relevant from this admittedly odd perspective.
Re: 360- best shmup system since???
I wouldn't say so. I think emulation is a pretty poor alternative in most cases to playing the native hardware, unless you have some kind of crazily accurate rig (but that's another discussion). And, if emulation does count, then there is no reason to make the argument that true exclusives are what makes a console worthwhile since every console will be playable on your PC or Mac eventually anyway.professor ganson wrote: Part of what makes these questions about significance so murky is not just all the differences in taste, but also all the differences in temporal perspective. Right now the Japanese Saturn is largely irrelevant thanks to MAME and so true-exclusives do matter if you are thinking about the relevance of the system now. That is changing, though, as console emulators get better.
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Mortificator
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Re: 360- best shmup system since???
Saturn ports aren't running on the native hardware either, not even with ST-V games.
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Re: 360- best shmup system since???
Sure, but Saturn is still likely to be a good deal closer to ST-V than any current ST-V emulator is to ST-V. Architecturally, the two are virtually identical (except that I think ST-V doesn't have the CD block; Saturn OTOH does have the cart slot, though it's obviously a different connector), and it's not the kind of architecture that readily lends itself to emulation. It's not the hardest system to emulate (Jaguar is definitely harder, and PS2 is probably harder), but it's up there.Mortificator wrote:Saturn ports aren't running on the native hardware either, not even with ST-V games.
Re: 360- best shmup system since???
I'd make the case that sometimes ports can hold their own against an arcade original, even if the hardware is very different or the port isn't entirely accurate. I think the extra modes in Cave ports were already mentioned, sometimes you get an extra level. Or, sometimes the game simply has a different pace, which often benefits players who aren't aces. Maybe the game system that's being ported to has its own idiosyncratic qualities which are enjoyable.Ex-Cyber wrote:Sure, but Saturn is still likely to be a good deal closer to ST-V than any current ST-V emulator is to ST-V. Architecturally, the two are virtually identical (except that I think ST-V doesn't have the CD block; Saturn OTOH does have the cart slot, though it's obviously a different connector), and it's not the kind of architecture that readily lends itself to emulation. It's not the hardest system to emulate (Jaguar is definitely harder, and PS2 is probably harder), but it's up there.
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Pirate1019
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Re: 360- best shmup system since???
Have fun playing your Cave ports.
It's really too bad more companies don't have the wherewithal to publish (quality) shooting games. If the selection diversifies then I might buy a 360 before it's dirt cheap because new hardware is going on sale.
It's really too bad more companies don't have the wherewithal to publish (quality) shooting games. If the selection diversifies then I might buy a 360 before it's dirt cheap because new hardware is going on sale.
"You are the Hero of Tomorrow!"
Re: 360- best shmup system since???
I wish like hell that Nintendo could or would figure out how to successfully emulate the Saturn on the Wii's Virtual Console. My interest in playing old-school shmups I've never tried far exceeds any passing cares I've had about Cave's output. For that reason, I'm only really interested in whichever console steps up their online arcade the hardest. For all of the 360's potential, their online library is a tired heap of stock retro crap with good ol' over-rated Ikaruga being the exceptional stand-out
. Meanwhile, my latter-day acquisition of the Wii (last month) gave me access to some great PC-Engine games and a brand-new Gradius title (with hopes of a new Salamander still floating along as well), so that puts it in a better place for me. I also didn't have to buy an import console to play Castle of Shikigami III, which was another nice perk.
Save for Cave games that I have little interest in playing, the 360's library just isn't enticing enough to make me want to buy a system that has become known for presenting hardware failures in its own display case. As of now, Raiden IV can be a small price to pay to avoid that BS.

Save for Cave games that I have little interest in playing, the 360's library just isn't enticing enough to make me want to buy a system that has become known for presenting hardware failures in its own display case. As of now, Raiden IV can be a small price to pay to avoid that BS.
Re: 360- best shmup system since???
Bah. PS2 has a ton of good stuff, including a lot of first rate compilations containing quality shooters. Don't sleep on the 4 Taito Memories comps, the Psikyo collections (plus the console exclusive Dragon Blaze), Capcom collections, Sega Ages Fantasy Zone collection. Then you have four good Cave games, Gradius V, the Psyvariar games, Homura, Shikigami no Shiro 1-2, Raiden III, Twinkle Star Sprites, Thunder Force VI (hey I like it)... And of course, you can play the entire PS1 library on it too.Kron wrote:The PS2 is VERY overrated on this forum.
If anything, DREAMCAST is overrated for shooters. Don't get me wrong, it's got some good stuff - but not nearly the massive quantity some people seem to hint at. Plus, accounting for the presence of many DC games on other systems (Shikigami 2, Psyvariar 2, Gunbird 2, Trizeal, Ikaruga, the Milestone games, etc), the console exclusives are even fewer. Yes, Under Defeat and Border Down are good, as are the Takumi games... but it's got NOTHING on Saturn/PS1/PCE, and I think PS2 beats it too.
I do think the Saturn/PS1/PCE trio are the elite, but 360 is now comfortably in the second tier alongside PS2 and DC (and maybe Genesis, depending on your tastes). I do like Cave games, so that sure helps the 360 in my mind. But even without Cave there's some solid stuff with the Raiden games, Senko no Ronde (whether you think it's a "true" shooter or not) and the upcoming port of the sequel, Shikigami 3, XBLA games, and the more minor releases to fill things out (e.g. Shooting Love 20XX, Mamoro-Kun, Otomedius).
Re: 360- best shmup system since???
Almost - you need a PS1 for Toaplan Shooting Battle, Gradius Deluxe Pack and (if only for stage 7) Gradius Gaiden's slowdown issues. Fairly small niggle (would be a nonexistent niggle if the affected games weren't so good).neojma wrote:And of course, you can play the entire PS1 library on it too.

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Re: 360- best shmup system since???
To this day I still am using Sega Saturn, Battle Garegga, DodonPachi, strikers 2 are great titles. the 360 on the other hand has taken the crown today when it comes to shmups, hd graphics, xbox live, and leadership boards coupled to a HORI orignal arcade stick and you got urself something better than any arcade cabinet right in your bedroom.
I got most (actually make that all) shmups for PS2 whereas I have to admit it but the system is terrible. I just can get that adrelanie gameplay like I do with the Saturn.
I got most (actually make that all) shmups for PS2 whereas I have to admit it but the system is terrible. I just can get that adrelanie gameplay like I do with the Saturn.
Re: 360- best shmup system since???
PS2's all about Sega Ages for me.. that Galaxy Force 2 rerelease was AWESOME
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Re: 360- best shmup system since???
I tend to prefer QUALITY over quantity, Something the DC does with aplomb.neojma wrote:but not nearly the massive quantity some people seem to hint at.
If you wanted to play a poor mans port you could play Shikigami 2, Psyvariar 2, Gunbird 2, Trizeal and the Milestone games on the PS2 but seriously unless you like games processed through a permanent brown filter and crap video output with added framerate issues why would you?
Re: 360- best shmup system since???
I'm not saying that this is true, but every time I look at this thread title I think "sliced bread." I'm pretty sure it's word association...
http://www.yyrgames.com
I exclusively make arcade-style games. Now available for Steam and Xbox =)
I exclusively make arcade-style games. Now available for Steam and Xbox =)
Sliced bread and new games
I'm really happy with how the 360 is turning out. I have 3 major releases coming my way this year, with a chance at more. Compared to 1 game once in awhile, the 360 is the new king!

Re: 360- best shmup system since???
Shikigami 2 is just fine on PS2. 360 Shooting Love 20xx essentially makes DC Trizeal obsolete to me. And the Milestone games... well, they're by Milestone so I don't think you should really be including them in any discussion of "QUALITY". I'll give you Psyvariar 2 though, I do play that one on DC... but even so, if you really like it you'll probably also like Skonec's PS2 releases that you can't get on DC - Psyvariar Revision/Medium Unit (I actually prefer the original to the sequel), and maybe Homura too.Kron wrote:I tend to prefer QUALITY over quantity, Something the DC does with aplomb.neojma wrote:but not nearly the massive quantity some people seem to hint at.
If you wanted to play a poor mans port you could play Shikigami 2, Psyvariar 2, Gunbird 2, Trizeal and the Milestone games on the PS2 but seriously unless you like games processed through a permanent brown filter and crap video output with added framerate issues why would you?
I like the DC, but being honest with myself it comes down to looking at comparing its handful of best games to other systems' handfuls of bests. Under Defeat and Mars Matrix (and to a lesser extent to me, Border Down and Giga Wing) are great and I'd never want to give them up, but PS2 is no slouch with the four Cave ports and a ton of great compilations. To each his own I guess, but if I had to choose just one between PS2/DC I'd go for PS2.
Re: 360- best shmup system since???
I think DC vs. PS2 comes down to how much you like Cave vs. reflect shield shmups... =) Aside from that, both have pretty good non-manics of various styles to choose from. The DC having better video output *is* a nice thing to have though. I vote DC, but man, I want to try Homura.. never had a chance to.
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Fuzzypants
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Re: 360- best shmup system since???
I love the saturn but dc and ps2 have their plus sides
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Obiwanshinobi
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Re: 360- best shmup system since???
What do you mean by "better video output"? The video signal quality? I'm not a fan of Sony hardware and I'm aware of the PS2 shortcomings, but my only grip with its RGB signal as such is that it doesn't do PAL colour in 60 Hz (which would be the ultimate way of enjoying the games on a CRT SDTV). Admittedly, PS2 ports of lo-res games tend to suck because for some insane reason developers force interlacing and filtering into them (which makes PS2 "the worst of the best shmup systems"), but nothing seems to be wrong with the signal itself (if you're using a decent cable, that is). Heck, on the interlaced telly I've yet to see a game that would graphically top Odin Sphere in terms of clarity and sharpness.louisg wrote:The DC having better video output *is* a nice thing to have though.
Are you referring to the 480p support? Nice to have indeed, but not essential for CRT SDTV users.
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Re: 360- best shmup system since???
I can't decide which system is best. I all just comes down to games in the end. I kinda liked what louisg pointed about Cave (PS2) Vs. Reflect shooters (DC) though.

oh, I beg to disagree.neojma wrote:And the Milestone games... well, they're by Milestone so I don't think you should really be including them in any discussion of "QUALITY".

Re: 360- best shmup system since???
And the Milestone games... well, they're by Milestone so I don't think you should really be including them in any discussion of "QUALITY".
o rly? milestone soundtracks anyone? there is NO other shmups with soundtracks up to the quality of milestones releases , granted the games arnt for everyone but they went with there own art style and the games are good if you want something that plays a little different .
Re: 360- best shmup system since???
Same here. Between my "big four" (PS1/SAT/PS2/DC) I could never choose, there's at least three favourite exclusives on each. I just consider them a collective means of conveniently snaring good stuff from the arcade.Kollision wrote:I can't decide which system is best. I all just comes down to games in the end.

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Herr Schatten
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Re: 360- best shmup system since???
I think that's why they tend to be so underappreciated. People don't want something that plays a little different. In fact, these days, you get the impression that all they want is something that plays exactly like Cave.clp wrote:the games are good if you want something that plays a little different .
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Pirate1019
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Re: 360- best shmup system since???
lol bulletcanceling. Milestone is obviously not hardcore enough.Herr Schatten wrote:I think that's why they tend to be so underappreciated. People don't want something that plays a little different. In fact, these days, you get the impression that all they want is something that plays exactly like Cave.clp wrote:the games are good if you want something that plays a little different .
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Re: 360- best shmup system since???
I vote for "best shmup system since the Kaypro II".. who's with me?
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professor ganson
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Re: 360- best shmup system since???
Nice post, neojma. Dragon Blaze, Fantasy Zone Collection, Sengoku Ace/Blade, Strikers 1 & 2, Gunbird 1 & 2, Homura, Raiden III... the list goes on and on, even without mentioning the Cave ports. And the thing that gives the PS2 the decisive edge over the DC for me is the Saturn PS2 pad, which is quite a bit more comfortable than the ascii pad for DC.neojma wrote:Bah. PS2 has a ton of good stuff, including a lot of first rate compilations containing quality shooters. Don't sleep on the 4 Taito Memories comps, the Psikyo collections (plus the console exclusive Dragon Blaze), Capcom collections, Sega Ages Fantasy Zone collection. Then you have four good Cave games, Gradius V, the Psyvariar games, Homura, Shikigami no Shiro 1-2, Raiden III, Twinkle Star Sprites, Thunder Force VI (hey I like it)... And of course, you can play the entire PS1 library on it too.Kron wrote:The PS2 is VERY overrated on this forum.
If anything, DREAMCAST is overrated for shooters. Don't get me wrong, it's got some good stuff - but not nearly the massive quantity some people seem to hint at. Plus, accounting for the presence of many DC games on other systems (Shikigami 2, Psyvariar 2, Gunbird 2, Trizeal, Ikaruga, the Milestone games, etc), the console exclusives are even fewer. Yes, Under Defeat and Border Down are good, as are the Takumi games... but it's got NOTHING on Saturn/PS1/PCE, and I think PS2 beats it too.
I do think the Saturn/PS1/PCE trio are the elite, but 360 is now comfortably in the second tier alongside PS2 and DC (and maybe Genesis, depending on your tastes). I do like Cave games, so that sure helps the 360 in my mind. But even without Cave there's some solid stuff with the Raiden games, Senko no Ronde (whether you think it's a "true" shooter or not) and the upcoming port of the sequel, Shikigami 3, XBLA games, and the more minor releases to fill things out (e.g. Shooting Love 20XX, Mamoro-Kun, Otomedius).
Re: 360- best shmup system since???
The Gunbird ports on PS2 are crappy and should be ignored. The Strikers collection is pointless with the PS1 versions and no 1999 is lame. As much as I like Psikyo, the whole shooting collection series is a letdown. There is nothing these ports offer that MAME doesn't - the kind of thing that makes Mars Matrix, Raiden Fighters Aces or Arika's Cave ports special and worth holding on to.
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professor ganson
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Re: 360- best shmup system since???
I used to be really down on the PS2 Psikyo ports for all of the familiar reasons. Then I played the PCBs of most of the games in question, and decided that the ports were better for me for the simple reason that they offer an auto-fire option. With the exception of Gunbird 2, the ports actually look quite nice. While the lack of high-score saving on Strikers is unforgivable, I do love the graphics on that port. They got it just right with Dragon Blaze, which has really nice menus, options, and graphics; they just needed to extend that quality to the other ports. Yes, they are all rendered unnecessary by MAME, but I prefer the ports for the simple reason that consoles are so user-friendly.