Why are sticks *objectively* better for shmups?

[Voxbox]

I used the Input Lag Testor to run some comparisons:

DC Stick w/ LS-32 (through Trio Linker Plus II converter) = 12-16 ms
PS2 Pad digital input (through the same Trio Linker Plus II converter) = 16 ms
USB Keyboards (one thick buttons, one flat ones) = 12-16 ms

Notes and conclusions:
16ms is by far the most common result with all devices. I just have alot harder to push myself beyond that with a pad.
The keyboards should have the least inherent input lag. Using pad/stick on an console/cab should get quicker results.
To get those top notch reactions with Stick, you really have to get physical.
One of the reasons Pad inputs vary little would be because you use the same thumb motion for every input. Definitly gives the most reliable results.

Basically, I'd say no control method seem to have any real advantage when it comes to plain reaction time.

[MrPopo]

Why will it achieve smaller pixel movement? How is that measured exactly when comparing to a pad?

Let's say I put a stick as player one and a Saturn pad as player two. I then try to move the character the least amount possible. The stick will win. It may only make a few pixels difference but it's enough that I blame myself and not the pad when I die dodging bullets.

This makes intuitive sense to me. From playing with sticks vs. d-pads I've found that it's much easier to determine exactly when you have gone from neutral to providing a direction input on a stick vs. on a pad. With the stick you can feel the mechanical click of the switch and the change in resistance that is provided, and from that you can then return to neutral. With the pad it feels more like guesswork if you're trying to be that precise. I remember when playing Mega Man 2 and trying to edge myself as far as possible without falling off a platform it was more about touching the pad for as short a time as possible, but you don't get the sense of what portion of the d-pad press actually causes a direction to transmit to the console until you see it on the screen.

[kengou]

And about the thread... sticks are not objectively better than pads... neither pads are objectively better than sticks.
I play shmups better with a pad and fighters better with a stick. This is a silly question, I think most people will agree it depends more on personal taste than anything.

I bet someone even preferes a DDR dancemat.

Some people disagree and I'm here to find out why that is.

If I were to ask this question on a fighter board I'd bet there would be FAR less consensus that it's all personal preference.

This makes intuitive sense to me. From playing with sticks vs. d-pads I've found that it's much easier to determine exactly when you have gone from neutral to providing a direction input on a stick vs. on a pad. With the stick you can feel the mechanical click of the switch and the change in resistance that is provided, and from that you can then return to neutral. With the pad it feels more like guesswork if you're trying to be that precise. I remember when playing Mega Man 2 and trying to edge myself as far as possible without falling off a platform it was more about touching the pad for as short a time as possible, but you don't get the sense of what portion of the d-pad press actually causes a direction to transmit to the console until you see it on the screen.

I don't know if I'd judge a personal "feeling" as an objective quality of sticks. I don't deny a stick has that physical feedback, but whether it helps you is up to the individual. I personally get plenty of feedback from the feeling of a button on a d-pad being pressed. It's not like a pad is a touchscreen d-pad, like in iphone games.

I used the Input Lag Testor to run some comparisons:

DC Stick w/ LS-32 (through Trio Linker Plus II converter) = 12-16 ms
PS2 Pad digital input (through the same Trio Linker Plus II converter) = 16 ms
USB Keyboards (one thick buttons, one flat ones) = 12-16 ms

Notes and conclusions:
16ms is by far the most common result with all devices. I just have alot harder to push myself beyond that with a pad.
The keyboards should have the least inherent input lag. Using pad/stick on an console/cab should get quicker results.
To get those top notch reactions with Stick, you really have to get physical.
One of the reasons Pad inputs vary little would be because you use the same thumb motion for every input. Definitly gives the most reliable results.

Basically, I'd say no control method seem to have any real advantage when it comes to plain reaction time.

Thanks! That's really interesting!

[AraraSPAMWitch]

Maybe they're not better , for instance PROMETHEUS gets great DDP scores using the keyboard.

Yeah, Hercules can lift a small truck with his pinky and I can barely lift my schoolbag with my right arm--pinkies have the maximum strength capacity of an arm.

My point would be that you're a bit stuffed if you are adept with a joypad and...SHOCK HORROR stumble across a real arcade with cabs and sticks.

This was the original reason I picked up stick. I played melty blood on pad and was like, "yeah, I can do combos," went to my local arcade, couldn't land half a bnb and got bodied by Marvel players who never touched the game before. Learned stick, can body Marvel players now, and can also play shooters if I'm lucky enough to find an arcade that has them, which has happened more than once.

Moral of the story: if you, like most game-playing superdork losers, plan on never leaving your house, by all means use pad or whatever, it's cheaper. If you, like me, enjoy scooping up fistfuls of pussy every weekend at da clubs, stick is where its at.

/thread

[MrPopo]

This makes intuitive sense to me. From playing with sticks vs. d-pads I've found that it's much easier to determine exactly when you have gone from neutral to providing a direction input on a stick vs. on a pad. With the stick you can feel the mechanical click of the switch and the change in resistance that is provided, and from that you can then return to neutral. With the pad it feels more like guesswork if you're trying to be that precise. I remember when playing Mega Man 2 and trying to edge myself as far as possible without falling off a platform it was more about touching the pad for as short a time as possible, but you don't get the sense of what portion of the d-pad press actually causes a direction to transmit to the console until you see it on the screen.

I don't know if I'd judge a personal "feeling" as an objective quality of sticks. I don't deny a stick has that physical feedback, but whether it helps you is up to the individual. I personally get plenty of feedback from the feeling of a button on a d-pad being pressed. It's not like a pad is a touchscreen d-pad, like in iphone games.

You do get feedback from the d-pad, but do you really have a good sense of when it actually registers the button press? I'm not saying it's not possible to develop this, but it is MUCH easier to do so on a stick that uses the standard microswitches. And I was speaking towards the point of being able to make the smallest movement possible. I'm ignoring the potential differences in the hardware timing between stick and pad and merely looking for how precisely a player might be able to control the amount of time they move.

[shadowbringer]

just my opinion:
- I'm fine with playing shmups on keyboard :p
- sometimes I have problems with the d-pad, not having played on them for a long time (RFJ on X360 seems less laggy, but I also felt my movement less precise, could be due to lack of practice, though)
- I didn't have any sort of troubles when using my old (and stolen since long) SNES pad, perhaps because I didn't have troubles with accidentally using diagonals on such pads (but still have some troubles when trying to use diagonals on a PS2 controller, or perform some motions in fighters, on them)
- as for fighters, a keyboard has a problem of sometimes not registering many buttons at once (fortunately, most of them can be solved with shortcuts; example: A+B+C in KoF 98), and it's harder to do 360s/720s on a keyboard consistently, than on a stick
- more on fighters.. these points below.
http://xenozipnotes.blogspot.com/2009/1 ... style.html
- I can't give an opinion on japanese sticks, I haven't played them. I don't have problems with diagonals on arcade sticks, but still felt that I had to be quicker when switching directions, since it's faster to do so on keyboards.

[Ed Oscuro]

Some people disagree and I'm here to find out why that is.

This is why I called you out earlier. Tone it down a bit, nobody has to explain themselves to you. Some folks have given pretty good explanations of their preferences - if you really are interested, as you say you are...

[Taylor]

I can understand sticks for fighters, but many have complicated motions and button presses. I'm sure most people could do just fine with any method except the 360 d-pad.

I prefer using a stick because that's what you see in the arcade, and I can put artwork of Reco's panties on it and rest my wrists on her cheeks.

[kengou]

Some people disagree and I'm here to find out why that is.

This is why I called you out earlier. Tone it down a bit, nobody has to explain themselves to you. Some folks have given pretty good explanations of their preferences - if you really are interested, as you say you are...

You tone it down. I'm asking for opinions/discussion on a discussion forum out of genuine curiosity. Obviously nobody *has* to explain anything to me, who the hell is forcing them?

[Dave_K.]

Please explain to me why you think sticks are OBJECTIVELY a better input device for shmups than pads.

You've already arrived at the best objective answer, but have conflated two different attributes - precise and quick.

Does anyone know if there's any biomechanical reason using the muscles of the arm/hand would be more precise/quick than using the muscles of the thumb?

And here is your misunderstanding.

I don't know much about that stuff admittedly, but it just intuitively seems to me that the smaller muscles of the thumb would be better for fine control. I'd love to see some data on that one way or the other.

There are 6 levels of independent joints from the shoulder to the tip of the finger which can all be involved in manipulating a joystick. There are only 3 independent joints which can be involved in moving a d-pad or thumb stick. Although the argument for less joints may mean faster response, it does not mean finer motor control. Further, and as previously stated in another post, certain joystick holding/positioning styles which restrict the number of joints can be used to increase response if needed. So in conclusion, sticks give you a wider degree of motor control and response than pads.

[MathU]

This whole "extra levers" argument is neat in theory, but you can really only apply it to analog control where extra precision actually matters.

[captpain]

This whole "extra levers" argument is neat in theory, but you can really only apply it to analog control where extra precision actually matters.

Why? Because you can apply it to both, I just want to know why you're wrong and think you're right.