Jeneki wrote:Related to this, why are joysticks and thumbpads designed to use your left hand?
It's something I never really thought about, until recently I went back to play a 2600 and noticed the stick is a right-hander. Also a lot of PC shmups default controls are the arrow keys, which on most keyboards would be the right hand.
I seem to do just as good with either hand, so it probably doesn't matter. But I'm just curious.
Hmm, not sure how that got started. If I remember correctly goldeneye's default config had you move with the C-buttons using your right hand and look around with the analog stick with the left hand. It was pretty weird looking back since it's pretty much opposite of most games. Then again the N64 had a weird ass controller.
Apparently it's all Nintendo's fault. Before the famicom, it was standard to have the stick on the right, but then Nintendo put their d-pad on the right, and everyone else followed suite. If PCEFX shows up, I'm sure he can give a much more detailed historical account. Anyway, I'm left handed, so I'm cool with it.
There is of course differences between pad and pad, and stick and stick.
Myself I have a decent pad (PS2/DC), a good thumb, and a great stick.
I spend about 8h a day playing videogames. They have been my main interest the last 10 years, and I play mostly retro/2D games, and mostly compedetively. Bought my first stick 2-3 years ago, and my results using it with fighters/shmups have by far surpassed what the ability 8 years of pad-gaming have given me.
Generally, you feel the directions and your own movement more precisely with a stick. You feel the engage and the release, the spring in the switches, the clicking, the gate, THE spring. There's nothing like those tells on a pad.
Where you move a stick, you place it perfectly because the gate restricts it. With a pad there's nothing making sure exactly where you place your thumb. A little sweat and the fatigue of relying on one single joint for all manouvering, and you have a real risk of misplacing, and that split second diagonal you need will turn into death.
While if you use a square gate stick, there's no chance in hell you'll get anything else than a diagonal when you need it.
When manipulating the stick, you use more than one joint for any direction, and not all joints work all the time. The coordination is down right beautiful, allowing to connect small finger movements with wristmovements. Heck, when I need a clutch evade, I yank my whole arm.
Moving back and forth between opposite directions becomes very precise and speedy, thanks to the center being a safe zone so to speak, where the dead center of a pad is more of a danger zone, where you're really close to getting any possible direction. Moving your big sweaty thumb over that area is just plain dangerous.
There you have it. I'd rather pick a lousy stick over a good pad.
Voxbox wrote:Generally, you feel the directions and your own movement more precisely with a stick. You feel the engage and the release, the spring in the switches, the clicking, the gate, THE spring. There's nothing like those tells on a pad.
Where you move a stick, you place it perfectly because the gate restricts it. With a pad there's nothing making sure exactly where you place your thumb. A little sweat and the fatigue of relying on one single joint for all manouvering, and you have a real risk of misplacing, and that split second diagonal you need will turn into death.
While if you use a square gate stick, there's no chance in hell you'll get anything else than a diagonal when you need it.
When manipulating the stick, you use more than one joint for any direction, and not all joints work all the time. The coordination is down right beautiful, allowing to connect small finger movements with wristmovements. Heck, when I need a clutch evade, I yank my whole arm.
Moving back and forth between opposite directions becomes very precise and speedy, thanks to the center being a safe zone so to speak, where the dead center of a pad is more of a danger zone, where you're really close to getting any possible direction. Moving your big sweaty thumb over that area is just plain dangerous.
QFT.
I find when using a pad that I can't stop moving (I guess lifting my thumb off the surface works, but I'm too attached to controls after all of my years using sticks).
I don't doubt that a stick is precise and quick, provided you are good at using one. You listed a lot of great reasons why it is. I'm just not sure I see why any of those reasons makes it any better than a pad. A pad has four buttons making eight directions. If you're used to a (good) pad - or keyboard for that matter - you'll get the diagonals any time you want. You either hit two buttons or you don't, it's digital. In terms of physical feedback, I'll grant a stick has more, but that doesn't mean a pad has none. I'd argue the amount of feedback on a pad is perfectly adequate, although that of course depends on the model. As for the possibility of screwing up because of a sweaty thumb, that just sounds like a problem that is unrelated to the input device itself.
The other argument of interest is the control via the hand versus control via the thumb. Seems to me that a thumb could be just as - if not potentially more precise and quick than a full hand for quick changes of directions or even circular movements such as in fighters. Does anyone know if there's any biomechanical reason using the muscles of the arm/hand would be more precise/quick than using the muscles of the thumb? I don't know much about that stuff admittedly, but it just intuitively seems to me that the smaller muscles of the thumb would be better for fine control. I'd love to see some data on that one way or the other.
"I think Ikaruga is pretty tough. It is like a modern version of Galaga that some Japanese company made."
What kind of stick did the OP have? Playing on a cheap stick is going to be similar to comparing the 360 dpad to a Saturn dpad.
A good stick (Seimitsu LS-32/40) will help you achieve smaller pixel movements than a Saturn pad. This is coming from someone with much love for Saturn pads. Hell, I have a drawer with at least half a dozen of them.
If you don't want to use a stick then don't. I don't think anyone is going to be able to convince you if your mind is already made up.
Kyle wrote:If you don't want to use a stick then don't. I don't think anyone is going to be able to convince you if your mind is already made up.
I already said this isn't a thread for people to convince me to use a stick. As you say, my mind is made up. I want to know why people think sticks are objectively better.
A good stick (Seimitsu LS-32/40) will help you achieve smaller pixel movements than a Saturn pad. This is coming from someone with much love for Saturn pads. Hell, I have a drawer with at least half a dozen of them.
Why will it achieve smaller pixel movement? How is that measured exactly when comparing to a pad?
"I think Ikaruga is pretty tough. It is like a modern version of Galaga that some Japanese company made."
kengou wrote:Why will it achieve smaller pixel movement? How is that measured exactly when comparing to a pad?
Let's say I put a stick as player one and a Saturn pad as player two. I then try to move the character the least amount possible. The stick will win. It may only make a few pixels difference but it's enough that I blame myself and not the pad when I die dodging bullets.
kengou wrote:Why will it achieve smaller pixel movement? How is that measured exactly when comparing to a pad?
Let's say I put a stick as player one and a Saturn pad as player two. I then try to move the character the least amount possible. The stick will win. It may only make a few pixels difference but it's enough that I blame myself and not the pad when I die dodging bullets.
How do you know the stick is the reason for this difference? How do you know this difference will happen for every player, and not just for you? There's lots of potential reasons for this difference.
"I think Ikaruga is pretty tough. It is like a modern version of Galaga that some Japanese company made."
im finding the xbox 360s controller STICK to be my pref way of playing
once worked in [100 hours of geowars2] its pretty quick
needs that worked in period, though
kengou wrote:How do you know the stick is the reason for this difference? How do you know this difference will happen for every player, and not just for you? There's lots of potential reasons for this difference.
Let's make this more scientific then. Find an app that can measure in Windows how long a gamepad button is pressed. I'll connect both to my PC and give you hard numbers with a variety of different sticks and pads (I have many).
I've not read any reply but for arcade shmups and their ports at least, probably because sticks are what they were made to be played with.
Now does this apply to shmups created specifically for console/pc, with no arcade heritage? I think you have to go on a case by case basis. Hell, some pc shmups are optimized to be played with a mouse.
Of course, ultimately it's up to you what you prefer blah blah blah.
kid aphex wrote:im finding the xbox 360s controller STICK to be my pref way of playing
once worked in [100 hours of geowars2] its pretty quick
needs that worked in period, though
Geometry Wars 2 is an analog game, so yea, that's definitely the way to play it.
Anyone ever wire a full-sized arcade analog joystick into a 360 controller? That's something I'd like to see. Arcade analog joysticks are spendy, so I've never messed with them myself.
kengou wrote:How do you know the stick is the reason for this difference? How do you know this difference will happen for every player, and not just for you? There's lots of potential reasons for this difference.
Let's make this more scientific then. Find an app that can measure in Windows how long a gamepad button is pressed. I'll connect both to my PC and give you hard numbers with a variety of different sticks and pads (I have many).
I'd be game for that if I could find an app like that. I'll look into it. Could be possible to program something up real quick that would accomplish that easily.
Of course in such an experiment I'd expect the quick button presses to be done by a number of people to discount the possibility that you personally are faster with a stick than a pad, or that I personally am faster with a pad. I just want to rule out any personal preferences or what-have-you, on both ends. I doubt I'm personally very fast at all with a pad, considering I'm just not that good at shmups compared to many on here. If we could get some of the high-scorers like Plasmo in on this I'd be interested in the results all the more!
If there is actually some measurable difference of a couple pixels in how far one moves with different control methods, I also wonder if it would really be that significant to be able to claim that sticks are so much better. Some data might certainly help with that question.
"I think Ikaruga is pretty tough. It is like a modern version of Galaga that some Japanese company made."
kengou wrote:Does anyone know if there's any biomechanical reason using the muscles of the arm/hand would be more precise/quick than using the muscles of the thumb? I don't know much about that stuff admittedly, but it just intuitively seems to me that the smaller muscles of the thumb would be better for fine control. I'd love to see some data on that one way or the other.
A lot of professional FPS players (for PC's, not lol console FPS) play with really low mouse sensitivity, often paired with a bigger mousepad, sometimes so low that swinging the mouse from the left side to the right will be just 180 degrees, enough to turn you around. The reasoning behind this is what you're thinking, that moving the mouse with your arm, rather than the wrist, has a slightly lower reaction time. IIRC its pretty minuscule, something on the level of a few milli or micro seconds, I forget which, but it is there and for these guys they'll take every last drop of an edge over their opponents when it can mean the difference between winning and losing.
This may or may not translate very well in the whole sticks vs. pad debate, as shmups aren't as reaction time dependent as FPS is. But if that tiny fraction of a second you gain from your nervous system is the difference between dodging in time or dieing, is enough evidence for anyone who cares about shmups to play on a stick only imo.
EPS21 wrote:A lot of professional FPS players (for PC's, not lol console FPS) play with really low mouse sensitivity, often paired with a bigger mousepad, sometimes so low that swinging the mouse from the left side to the right will be just 180 degrees, enough to turn you around. The reasoning behind this is what you're thinking, that moving the mouse with your arm, rather than the wrist, has a slightly lower reaction time.
This reasoning doesn't make any sense to me. Even if it's true that moving with the arm is faster than moving with the wrist, they're also increasing the distance that must be moved in order to get a given effect. I think it's much more likely that they're actually sacrificing a little bit of raw speed in order to get higher precision, resulting in a lower total time to kill a target (fewer misses + more headshots/whatever).
Old style sticks--the design being a short metal stick with a round knob on the top--were always quite accurate when the stick was properly maintained because it wasn't even necessary to move the stick all the way into a gate. It was even possible just to move the stick with the palm of the hand or just the fingertips.
New style sticks--the taller stick that rounds at the top but doesn't have a full knob--feel a bit less accurate (to me) because the extra stick height feels like a bigger motion than the knob style sticks. Futhermore, those new sticks don't really work well with just the palm of the hand of the fingertips, it seems like some sort of actual grip is needed to move those sticks.
Pad is very accurate for small tap motions--just a quick/press release of the button--but depending on the quality of the pad the diagonal directions may not always be accurate on demand.
kengou wrote:Why will it achieve smaller pixel movement? How is that measured exactly when comparing to a pad?
Let's say I put a stick as player one and a Saturn pad as player two. I then try to move the character the least amount possible. The stick will win. It may only make a few pixels difference but it's enough that I blame myself and not the pad when I die dodging bullets.
That's a ridiculously bad way to compare them. You don't hold sticks or pads with your right hand, so your dexterity is always going to be off. Whatever the first device is will win.
Give me any game, ANY difficulty, ANY pattern, and I will dodge that thing with a Saturn pad. I can prove that absolutely any device can become somebody's best friend if they've invested enough time with it. I will record it and upload it, then I'll record trying to get through that pattern with my Seimitsu HRAP. Look at Prometheus, look at MrMonkeyMan.
Needless to say, I have better dexterity with Saturn pads. I don't mind using sticks, in fact I'd like to convert to them completely, but the "do or die" moments either have people sitting there, trying to figure out what to do (and they'll be too insecure to move to where they really want to go, dying in the process), or they'll natively try to dodge through things because their device is no longer an issue.
People place way too much emphasis on the best type of input. Switching to a stick may help you. Then again, the time spent becoming natural with a stick might also be helping you learn the damn game. No one type of input is *objectively* better than another. If it was we would all be using it and not having this discussion ten fucking times a year.
You know what? No. I say we all take off the joystick shaft and instead diddle the damn switches with our finger. You can't get much more direct than that, and you get to violate the game no matter how badly you do.
EPS21 wrote:A lot of professional FPS players (for PC's, not lol console FPS) play with really low mouse sensitivity, often paired with a bigger mousepad
Either or for me. Doesn't really matter as long as they both have Rapid Fire, just depends on which one I feel like using. Nam 1975 is pretty much the only game I must use a stick to play.
EPS21 wrote:A lot of professional FPS players (for PC's, not lol console FPS) play with really low mouse sensitivity, often paired with a bigger mousepad, sometimes so low that swinging the mouse from the left side to the right will be just 180 degrees, enough to turn you around. The reasoning behind this is what you're thinking, that moving the mouse with your arm, rather than the wrist, has a slightly lower reaction time.
This reasoning doesn't make any sense to me. Even if it's true that moving with the arm is faster than moving with the wrist, they're also increasing the distance that must be moved in order to get a given effect. I think it's much more likely that they're actually sacrificing a little bit of raw speed in order to get higher precision, resulting in a lower total time to kill a target (fewer misses + more headshots/whatever).
If you're moving your arm fast enough, its the same as just flicking your wrist to the same effect, so I don't think you get the loss of speed. HamidoOs posted a pretty good example of that, as goofy as it may look swinging your arm around like that for a mouse, but hey people do the same with sticks anyways.
Jeneki wrote:Related to this, why are joysticks and thumbpads designed to use your left hand?
It's something I never really thought about, until recently I went back to play a 2600 and noticed the stick is a right-hander. Also a lot of PC shmups default controls are the arrow keys, which on most keyboards would be the right hand.
I seem to do just as good with either hand, so it probably doesn't matter. But I'm just curious.
Hmm, not sure how that got started. If I remember correctly goldeneye's default config had you move with the C-buttons using your right hand and look around with the analog stick with the left hand. It was pretty weird looking back since it's pretty much opposite of most games. Then again the N64 had a weird ass controller.
The MSX joysticks were also built to be used with the right hand... and as Amiga used the 2600 model, I had lots of joysticks for it that were also built to be used with the right hand
I grew up playing on those, my friends who were used to play on consoles always had trouble playing on them.
And about the thread... sticks are not objectively better than pads... neither pads are objectively better than sticks.
I play shmups better with a pad and fighters better with a stick. This is a silly question, I think most people will agree it depends more on personal taste than anything.
I've always used my saturn pad for everything (when possible), and became quite accustomed to it for shmups. I wouldn't go back to a pad for fighters, though...
Reading all these comments about how sticks are very precise to go around bullets and all... I know it's a matter of preference, but do most people use square gates? When doing circular motions, it does get quite clunky for me anyways. Question of habit, perhaps? Also... Is a stock HRAP (w/JLF) considered to have a long throw? Are there people who use them competently to play shmups without modding them?
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