The Effects of Localization

[TrevHead (TVR)]

...But lamely whining about the issue is easier, I guess.

Ive felt like moaning about no pal localations aswell, but im sure every1 across the pond is sick of it, still is a bitch though

[gray117]

For the masses seeing a box on the shelf is still a massive thing.

Can cave games (/shmups in genreal) be sold profitably for, say $30 [I'm not American so whatever a marked down price is]?

If the print run is so small that a higher price point is maintained, and most stores won't stock it (since it becomes unprofitable at lower prices/volumes), and the general market will not even notice it on shelves... and it will have very little.

But if these games are released with a large print run and can be sold for $30 - $40 (or less), before/after the predictable mark down, and still be profitable, then localisation could be great for shmups - pushing the product into an accessible niche consumer area where it can benefit from the exposure to a massive consumer base and generate a healthy reputation.

[Lets face it, shmups for 360/ps3 in Japan is simply a small (and shrinking?) market compared to America.]

A lack of localisation and/or a small print run, will simply mean shmups continue to be 'endangered' as far as home gaming is concerned.

[Zweihander]

You've got this backwards, so no you can't.

Sorry, but every weeaboo that I know touts the Touhou series more for its characters/ stories/ doujins/ music/ merchandise/ EVERYTHING BUT GAMEPLAY, than for its (rather weak) gameplay.

And why exactly would any Japanese company give a shit about what Americans think about the setting of a doujin game?

Touhou's always had a retardedly large fanbase in Japan. See Pixiv, which may as well be Touhouxiv. Whereas most of them love Touhou due to pedophilic undertones in the culture itself, weeaboos think the characters are KAWAII UGUU and could care less about the gameplay which makes Raiden 1 or DonPachi look "state of the art" by today's standards. Loli shmups becoming popular in America AS WELL (but for different reasons) is merely the spreading of the Cancer.

tl;dr: Japanese 30-year-olds and American 15-year-olds are attracted to Touhou for all the wrong reasons.

[BulletMagnet]

Also, Atlus had such a bad year, their stock just got put on hold.

You're thinking of NIS - I haven't glimpsed any news on Atlus' financial state of late (unless I've just missed it).

[Momijitsuki]

You've got this backwards, so no you can't.

Sorry, but every weeaboo that I know touts the Touhou series more for its characters/ stories/ doujins/ music/ merchandise/ EVERYTHING BUT GAMEPLAY, than for its (rather weak) gameplay.

That you know. Plenty of Touhou fans play the games for score, though they are in the minority. Furthermore, I don't know how you get off on calling the gameplay 'weak'. Apparently you've never played Perfect Cherry Blossom for score-- its scoring system is actually very nice.

Loli shmups becoming popular in America AS WELL (but for different reasons) is merely the spreading of the Cancer.

Hahaha, what?!

You're so full of shit. Name 5 loli shmups that are actually popular in America. Oh, wait. You can't.

[xris]

Crap, it was Nippon Ichi, my apologies.
Mobil Light Force is always going to stand as a worst case in localization.

[lgb]

tl;dr: Japanese 30-year-olds and American 15-year-olds are attracted to Touhou for all the wrong reasons.

by your standards, your attention span is really short, which explains a lot. also according to your standards, Touhou isn't even a shmup, so it shouldn't even be considered. thus, the Touhou series itself has nothing to do with this.

[Acid King]

For the masses seeing a box on the shelf is still a massive thing.

Can cave games (/shmups in genreal) be sold profitably for, say $30 [I'm not American so whatever a marked down price is]?

If the print run is so small that a higher price point is maintained, and most stores won't stock it (since it becomes unprofitable at lower prices/volumes), and the general market will not even notice it on shelves... and it will have very little.

But if these games are released with a large print run and can be sold for $30 - $40 (or less), before/after the predictable mark down, and still be profitable, then localisation could be great for shmups - pushing the product into an accessible niche consumer area where it can benefit from the exposure to a massive consumer base and generate a healthy reputation.

[Lets face it, shmups for 360/ps3 in Japan is simply a small (and shrinking?) market compared to America.]

A lack of localisation and/or a small print run, will simply mean shmups continue to be 'endangered' as far as home gaming is concerned.

One thing I think that contributes to a problem of localizers is the fairly large initial print they have to do in the States. In Japan the initial run has to be what, 5,000? I don't know how many genres are so small that they would be unable to manage to sell that. In the US it's 50,000 which is a much tougher number to reach. On one hand, it make sense since there are that many more potential consumers in the US, but I think setting the number that high discourages smaller publishers and smaller games . I think we would see a lot more loclalizations if the print requirement wasn't so high.

[Zweihander]

Hahaha, what?!

You're so full of shit. Name 5 loli shmups that are actually popular in America. Oh, wait. You can't.

Amongst WEEABOOS who go to WEEABOO ANIMU CONVENTIONS? Easy:

Embodiment of Scarlet Devil
Perfect Cherry Blossom
Imperishable Night
Mountain of Faith
Undefined Fantastic Object

the Touhou series itself has nothing to do with this.

Yeah. It does. It's shmups for casuals.

[Momijitsuki]

Hahaha, what?!

You're so full of shit. Name 5 loli shmups that are actually popular in America. Oh, wait. You can't.

Amongst WEEABOOS who go to WEEABOO ANIMU CONVENTIONS? Easy:

Embodiment of Scarlet Devil
Perfect Cherry Blossom
Imperishable Night
Mountain of Faith
Undefined Fantastic Object

Ohh, but the WEEABOOS don't even like to PLAY the games, like you said. Therefore, the games themselves are not popular. Your argument is flawed, you're being incredibly judgmental, and you're being pissy for really no reason whatsoever.

the Touhou series itself has nothing to do with this.

Yeah. It does. It's shmups for casuals.

Lunatic difficulty is hardly casual.

[EinhanderZwei]

OH NO... another topic ends up bashing Touhou... As if my day is not shitty enough

[honorless]

For the masses seeing a box on the shelf is still a massive thing.

I disagree. "The masses" aren't ever going to be interested, period. This is squarely aimed at the geeks, nerds and fanboys that make up 95% of Aksys's audience—and the geeks, nerds and fanboys who don't. Yet. A small initial print run isn't much of a problem so long as Amazon has copies. (...Is that 50,000 initial print run in the US claim even close to being substantiated, btw? I thought that was very much rumor/unconfirmed, and it sounds very unlikely.)
A token copy or two in a the larger game stores, with the cover clearly visible, is enough to pique their desired audience's interest and accomodate for the occasional impulse buy.

What will make or break this release is publicity, I think. And Aksys...is not too bad at that. Limited editions (especially if they are weird) and silly promotions/contests make headlines at nerdy news sites and blogs in addition to engaging their existing audience. They're also pretty good at keeping release dates, or announcing delays well ahead of time. (UFO are you listening what the hell)

Sure, price is a factor. But I'd say awareness is a bigger factor.

touhou touhou touhou lolis touhou

Just because Zweihander reads like a /b/ refugee doesn't mean he's wrong about Touhou as a franchise being more popular than Touhou as a series of games. Hop on DeviantArt and ask the legion of fans whether they've beaten Easy, or whether they've even tried anything harder.

Touhou is akin to Vocaloid; the number of fans who actually have the program(s) and use them to make music is a tiny fraction of the total base. Which doesn't help Aksys with much other than publicity...but maybe a small fraction of that fanbase, or those who've simply heard of the bullet-hell genre through that fanbase will be willing to pay for Deathsmiles. It's hard to know. The series' cult notoriety at least doesn't hurt them in any way.

[Herr Schatten]

i blame monster world 3's shooting stage

MW3 had a shooting stage?

I don't know if it's MW3 but one of the Monster World's second stage was a horizontal shooting stage where you flew on a dragon or something like that.

You're probably thinking of Monster Lair: Wonderboy III. It's not a Monster World game

[lgb]

Yeah. It does. It's shmups for casuals.

this is no more true than Deathsmiles, except that Deathsmiles is slightly harder to access. Milestone games are probably in the same category.

again, if no one plays the games, they can't really be blamed for anything.

Just because Zweihander reads like a /b/ refugee doesn't mean he's wrong about Touhou as a franchise being more popular than Touhou as a series of games. Hop on DeviantArt and ask the legion of fans whether they've beaten Easy, or whether they've even tried anything harder.

no one is arguing this except Zweihander, and this is exactly why his "argument" doesn't work so well.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

You're probably thinking of Monster Lair: Wonderboy III. It's not a Monster World game

yea its a bit confusing as they are 2 wonderboys, the semi shmup one and dragons curse

[Zweihander]

Ohh, but the WEEABOOS don't even like to PLAY the games, like you said. Therefore, the games themselves are not popular. Your argument is flawed, you're being incredibly judgmental, and you're being pissy for really no reason whatsoever.

Where did I say this? The weeaboos play the games AFTER seeing all the flash videos by Iosys and Silver Forest, all the stupid Touhou parodies on Youtube, watched the Touhou Anime Project episodes, and shopped online for PVC statues. THEN they want to play the game to "get in touch with the roots", and 9 times out of 10, they only play on Normal mode, which is the equivalent of "easy" mode in any Cave port.

Lunatic difficulty is hardly casual.

I don't know any weeaboos who play it on Lunatic mode. Nor do I know any who play on Extra mode, since they haven't unlocked any of them. (credit-feeding whores)

Just because Zweihander reads like a /b/ refugee doesn't mean he's wrong about Touhou as a franchise being more popular than Touhou as a series of games. Hop on DeviantArt and ask the legion of fans whether they've beaten Easy, or whether they've even tried anything harder.

Touhou is akin to Vocaloid; the number of fans who actually have the program(s) and use them to make music is a tiny fraction of the total base. Which doesn't help Aksys with much other than publicity

Seconding this.

Moral of the story: If the Touhou games didn't feature intricate storylines and character relations, and were instead represented by spaceships or helicopters instead of flying lolis, (or just flying lolis with little-to-no back story, or just barely enough back story to push the game along, i.e. the Cave or Alpha System shmups where you play as flying humans) nobody would give a shit. The hardcore wouldn't care since they'd have better shmups to play anyway, and the casuals/weeaboos wouldn't care because they're generally drawn to things for their characters, not for their gameplay. (see: Super Smash Bros' inflated popularity and how nobody would give a shit about the buttonmasher series if not for the Nintendo characters)

[Taylor]

Just because Zweihander reads like a /b/ refugee doesn't mean he's wrong about Touhou as a franchise being more popular than Touhou as a series of games. Hop on DeviantArt and ask the legion of fans whether they've beaten Easy, or whether they've even tried anything harder

Though I don't see anyone in this thread saying otherwise. The initial argument was that touhou's perceived popularity is irrelevant to Deathsmiles potential sales because the fans ("weeaboos" is apparently the collective term) have no interest in shmups. Zweihander seems to be repeatedly reiterating the composition of touhous fanbase, through increasing amounts of vitriol, despite that being an uncontested and moot point.

[Momijitsuki]

Where did I say this? The weeaboos play the games AFTER seeing all the flash videos by Iosys and Silver Forest, all the stupid Touhou parodies on Youtube, watched the Touhou Anime Project episodes, and shopped online for PVC statues. THEN they want to play the game to "get in touch with the roots", and 9 times out of 10, they only play on Normal mode, which is the equivalent of "easy" mode in any Cave port.

Right, so being a fan of Touhou music and buying PVC statues instantly makes them weeaboos. Great to know. What about the fans of other shmups who listen to shmup music and buy models of Vic Viper? Does that make them weeaboos too? No? Cool double standard.

I don't know any weeaboos who play it on Lunatic mode. Nor do I know any who play on Extra mode, since they haven't unlocked any of them. (credit-feeding whores)

Again, that you know of. Then again, how hard have you bothered looking? I know a forum full of people who can show you how stupid that statement really is.

Moral of the story: If the Touhou games didn't feature intricate storylines and character relations, and were instead represented by spaceships or helicopters instead of flying lolis, (or just flying lolis with little-to-no back story, or just barely enough back story to push the game along, i.e. the Cave or Alpha System shmups where you play as flying humans) nobody would give a shit. The hardcore wouldn't care since they'd have better shmups to play anyway, and the casuals/weeaboos wouldn't care because they're generally drawn to things for their characters, not for their gameplay. (see: Super Smash Bros' inflated popularity and how nobody would give a shit about the buttonmasher series if not for the Nintendo characters)

But see, the intricate storylines and character relations is what sets Touhou apart from other games in the genre. That's like saying 'aw take all the bullets out of CAVE shmups, no one will give a shit about them then'. Just because the series has a different way of attracting people doesn't make it any less legitimate.

I think you're just bitter because you personally don't like the series or the fans, and are just arguing for the sake of arguing... which is really, really pathetic.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore because I know this will go nowhere, so I'll just state my bottom line and leave. You're only ruining the shmup genre for yourself by bitching about it. So DeathSmiles is being localized. You know what? No one outside of the shmup fanbase is really going to give a shit. Get the fuck over it. You don't like it? Don't play it.

[Zweihander]

Right, so being a fan of Touhou music and buying PVC statues instantly makes them weeaboos. Great to know. What about the fans of other shmups who listen to shmup music and buy models of Vic Viper? Does that make them weeaboos too? No? Cool double standard.

Were people attracted to Gradius by an intricately-woven anime-style plot and characters? Did people buy Vic Viper models before they even knew it was from a video game? ...No?! Pshaw!

Again, that you know of. Then again, how hard have you bothered looking? I know [url=http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?board=6.0]a forum full of people who can show you how stupid that statement really is.

Oh. You didn't just like me to THAT weeb site... Why not just link me to Neogaf, and a few dozen anime convention forums, while you're at it...

But see, the intricate storylines and character relations is what sets Touhou apart from other games in the genre. That's like saying 'aw take all the bullets out of CAVE shmups, no one will give a shit about them then'. Just because the series has a different way of attracting people doesn't make it any less legitimate.

A bunch of generic anime-style stories and characters doesn't make up for piss-poor gameplay and bullet patterns that dodge themselves. You, yourself, being here, should know this.

I think you're just bitter because you personally don't like the series or the fans

Oh, I really don't like the fans. I've seen them go on and on about how they love their pretty rainbow patterns but dislike Cave or other companies' shmups because they're too hard or the patterns aren't pretty enough... and claim Touhou is better than the likes of Dodonpachi, etc... This isn't coming from people online, not weeaboo idiots IN REAL LIFE that I've dealt with.

So DeathSmiles is being localized. You know what? No one outside of the shmup fanbase is really going to give a shit. Get the fuck over it. You don't like it? Don't play it.[/i]

LOLWUT? When did I say I wasn't looking forward to DeathSmiles? That's a reserve and a day-one purchase for me. I'm just remarking upon the fact that the Touhou series' increasing popularity within the weeaboo subculture will probably add at least 1000 sales. While they'd be buying it for the wrong reason (KAWAII UGUU lolis) they'd at least be attributing to the sales of a great game.

[EPS21]

I'm sorry for the thread derailment of having brought up both weaboos and Touhou into the equation. Perhaps someone can make a thread in off topic (or shmups chat ) so we can all vent our touhou hate for having other people who enjoy the series infringe on our super secret shmups club.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I'm sorry for the thread derailment of having brought up both weaboos and Touhou into the equation. Perhaps someone can make a thread in off topic (or shmups chat ) so we can all vent our touhou hate for having other people who enjoy the series infringe on our super secret shmups club.

I cant really undestand why folk hate ppl who are fans of certain games for all the wrong reasons, Since the amount of folk (including sealed game collectors) who do this are in most cases the minority then its a good then since it equates to more copies been sold and more chance of shmups been released

However in the world of doujin and especially touhou where the sicko fans outnumber the hardcore gamers it probably will be detrimental, might explain why touhou is easier then it once was if zun is catering to the fans and not the shmuppers.

[Elixir]

I'm sorry for the thread derailment of having brought up both weaboos and Touhou into the equation. Perhaps someone can make a thread in off topic (or shmups chat ) so we can all vent our touhou hate for having other people who enjoy the series infringe on our super secret shmups club.

I cant really undestand why folk hate ppl who are fans of certain games for all the wrong reasons, Since the amount of folk (including sealed game collectors) who do this are in most cases the minority then its a good then since it equates to more copies been sold and more chance of shmups been released

However in the world of doujin and especially touhou where the sicko fans outnumber the hardcore gamers it probably will be detrimental, might explain why touhou is easier then it once was if zun is catering to the fans and not the shmuppers.

Except in this case, where people liking Touhou for everything but the games themselves is not a minority.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

True, im not really a touhou player myself but wasnt it after PCB where the games got less and less difficult as the series when on?

[Momijitsuki]

Ugh.

Were people attracted to Gradius by an intricately-woven anime-style plot and characters? Did people buy Vic Viper models before they even knew it was from a video game? ...No?! Pshaw!

Way to miss the point. What I was getting at is 'when did it become so wrong to buy merchandise of something you're a fan of?' and if so, why is it so bad when Touhou fans do it? Is it just because it's a fanbase you don't like? If so, then it's a double standard.

Oh. You didn't just like me to THAT weeb site... Why not just link me to Neogaf, and a few dozen anime convention forums, while you're at it...

Yes. I linked you to that 'weeb' site. You were bitching that none of them had even unlocked extra stage because they're credit-feeding whores, let alone beat the extra stages, or Lunatic for that matter. Well, there's a place where there are actually plenty of people who have beaten the games on all difficulties, captured all spell cards, played for score, as well as playing pacifist/no-vert challenges and so on, which just proves that you're being a judgmental jackass.

But see, the intricate storylines and character relations is what sets Touhou apart from other games in the genre. That's like saying 'aw take all the bullets out of CAVE shmups, no one will give a shit about them then'. Just because the series has a different way of attracting people doesn't make it any less legitimate.

A bunch of generic anime-style stories and characters doesn't make up for piss-poor gameplay and bullet patterns that dodge themselves. You, yourself, being here, should know this.

That's all very subjective. Playing the games on the proper difficulty removes the 'piss-poor gameplay' and 'bullet patterns that dodge themselves. You should know this if you've even bothered trying them.

I think you're just bitter because you personally don't like the series or the fans

Oh, I really don't like the fans. I've seen them go on and on about how they love their pretty rainbow patterns but dislike Cave or other companies' shmups because they're too hard or the patterns aren't pretty enough... and claim Touhou is better than the likes of Dodonpachi, etc... This isn't coming from people online, not weeaboo idiots IN REAL LIFE that I've dealt with.

And I've dealt with this as well, and told them off for it. As a matter of fact, I've convinced a large handful of people to actually give arcade shmups a chance at that 'weeb' forum, and guess what? They love CAVE shmups now, and a couple of them have even 1cc'd the first loop of DoDonPachi in a matter of a few days of trying to a few weeks. One even ordered a Japanese 360 for DOJBLEX, ESPGaluda II, Mushi Futari, DeathSmiles (he can't get the localized one since he lives in Europe) and Ketsui, whenever that comes out. So if anything, you should be thankful to some of these 'weebs' for supporting CAVE and their games.

So DeathSmiles is being localized. You know what? No one outside of the shmup fanbase is really going to give a shit. Get the fuck over it. You don't like it? Don't play it.[/i]

LOLWUT? When did I say I wasn't looking forward to DeathSmiles? That's a reserve and a day-one purchase for me. I'm just remarking upon the fact that the Touhou series' increasing popularity within the weeaboo subculture will probably add at least 1000 sales. While they'd be buying it for the wrong reason (KAWAII UGUU lolis) they'd at least be attributing to the sales of a great game.

I kind of figured you were against it when you were on your 'loli shmups are becoming popular in America and spreading the CANCER' rant. Can't have one without the other after all-- and even if the weeaboos are buying it for the wrong reason, why the hell should you care? It's more support for the companies who are actually throwing us a bone for once by localizing niche games for us-- so it's a good thing, especially since it has absolutely no effect on your enjoyment of the game at all.

True, im not really a touhou player myself but wasnt it after PCB where the games got less and less difficult as the series when on?

I don't know where all this 'new Touhou games are easier' stuff is coming from. Subterranean Animism and Undefined Fantastic Object on Lunatic are fucking brutal-- but EoSD and PCB Lunatic are much easier in comparison if you ask me. If anything, the new games' EASY modes are easier, but that's about it.

[gray117]

What will make or break this release is publicity, I think. And Aksys...is not too bad at that. Limited editions (especially if they are weird) and silly promotions/contests make headlines at nerdy news sites and blogs in addition to engaging their existing audience. They're also pretty good at keeping release dates, or announcing delays well ahead of time. (UFO are you listening what the hell)

Sure, price is a factor. But I'd say awareness is a bigger factor.

Don't think we're entirely disagreeing ... I'd love to see awareness rise; I just doubt that realistically anyone would put enough money behind any single shmup for this to happen. I mean decent exposure through splash marketing; $5-10 million? Nor do I think a single shmup will have a long of enough tail for more creative marketing to really take hold... But if there are a couple of these around, localised, at a good price, with a good reputation, some decent trailers and say a compilation video feature/trailer... It would be great for shmups to develop a 'status' in the general gamer audience; although you're not going to be necessarily getting lots of them as a direct audience even a small percentage would make shmups a far more viable prospect than they are now.

And perhaps make them a more viable downloadable prospect too ... [who knows what the real deal between the (lack of) cave ports so far on xbla/psn - personally I suspect probably in part due to cave's own inertia ...]

In this sense localisation is just simply breaking the inertia, and it will take many more releases for shmups to become exposed...

Maybe its all wishful thinking :roll

[Lynx Winters]

Embodiment of Scarlet Devil
Perfect Cherry Blossom
Imperishable Night
Mountain of Faith
Undefined Fantastic Object

If you actually think any of these are popular games you have lost all perspective.

[Zweihander]

Embodiment of Scarlet Devil
Perfect Cherry Blossom
Imperishable Night
Mountain of Faith
Undefined Fantastic Object

If you actually think any of these are popular games you have lost all perspective.

They're popular amongst weeaboos, a cancer spreading faster than one would think. I primarily attend anime cons for gaming tourneys and to chat with fellow gamers (actual gamers, i.e. people who play things other than Rock Band and Halo) and for every Touhou cosplayer I see there (dozens) you can bet your ass there's at least a hundred Touhou fans not in costume.

[Momijitsuki]

Must have been a fluke then. I have a friend that went to a con dressed as a Touhou character, and not only was she the only one, only 2 people recognized her.

And why the fuck does it matter if there were 'at least a hundred fans there not in costume for each one in costume'? Those must have been the ones who 'liked it for the right reason' then, huh? Cool assumption. It's your own damn fault for going to a weeaboo convention anyway. Kind of like going to a rock concert and then complaining that it's too loud!

[Depth Charge]

Jeez, are you a weeaboo or something?

[EinhanderZwei]

Kind of like going to a rock concert and then complaining that it's too loud!

In my city they literally do so!