Why are sticks *objectively* better for shmups?

[kengou]

Many times here and elsewhere, I see the assertion that arcade sticks are better input devices than d-pads for shmups (and fighters). This is NOT a thread about which one to use; I know very well that I prefer pads and that's not what I want to talk about - it's been done to death here anyway. What I want to talk about is why some of you believe that sticks are objectively better. I have no problem with anyone who prefers to use sticks of course - if that's what you're used to, good for you. But some people claim that you will be a better player when you get good using a stick, compared to a d-pad. They claim a stick is *objectively* a more precise input device for shmups (and fighters) compared to a d-pad. I don't understand this claim. I don't see any of the evidence for it. Both a pad and a stick are digital inputs with the same number of directions. What's the difference?

Please explain to me why you think sticks are OBJECTIVELY a better input device for shmups than pads.

[Acid King]

I think the way your hands work with them is just more precise like the difference between painting with a brush and finger painting.

[gundamalpha]

I found tapping on a stick is much easier than on a pad, especially when I play Pulstar.

[Ed Oscuro]

This is NOT a thread about which one to use; I know very well that I prefer pads and that's not what I want to talk about - it's been done to death here anyway.

Did you have to poison the topic before it even started? Dead horse topic, and the topic title strikes me as an attempt to lure out stick extremists (lol) so you can have fun with them. Most people will agree that there are best options for various games, and many will agree that pads are good for certain types of games. Don't see why this needs to be surrounded with an air of controversy and defensive posturing.

Some folks like sticks, some like pads, and some are unfortunate (or dumb) and must play Pac-Man with an eight-way stick; not much more to tell really.

Ideally, I use whatever gives me a better sense of direction. Unfortunately, I rarely can put a stick on a solid surface in front of me and they don't do as well rocking on a leg.

Realistically, I use keyboards and pads mainly because they're cheap and available, and packing along a Saturn USB is a lot simpler than a full-size joystick, and more easily replaced if it goes bad.

[linko9]

For me it's much, much easier to make quicker, more precise movements with a stick. Using my EX-SE, the smallest movement I can make is 3 pixels in DDP with A-Type (not firing). With a pad (dualshock), that number jumps up to 5 pixels. Additionally, I can switch from moving left to moving right (or vice versa) much quicker with a stick than a d-pad. It's not just for shumps though. In Windjammers, I've got no chance of beating the game using a d-pad; my thumb just can't react fast enough to catch the disk on the later levels. With a stick, my success rate goes up astronomically. Of course a lot of this has to do with the fact that I use sticks much more often than pads for these types of games, but I've used a D-pad for many more hours of my gaming career than I have a stick, so I think it's fair to say that I'm intrinsically better using a stick. I'd assume the same would hold true for most people.

[Udderdude]

Saturn pad can hold it's own against a stick IMO. Just depends on how much time you put into using/practicing with it.

[MathU]

They're not.

Thread over.

[kccttzj]

I like the more precise/fluid movement from a stick. Fighters are the same. I have a hard time pulling off moves on a dpad most times.

I've also found them easier to use because I have small fingers. Seems like I have problems with the precise movements on a controller because of it? Maybe I'm crazy, but it seems that way sometimes lol.

[Mortificator]

Objectively, a mouse or stylus would be best.

[DEL]

Maybe they're not better , for instance PROMETHEUS gets great DDP scores using the keyboard.

My point would be that you're a bit stuffed if you are adept with a joypad and...SHOCK HORROR stumble across a real arcade with cabs and sticks.

Its an age thing too.

[Dandy J]

cant use pad in arcade

[Ex-Cyber]

With a pad (dualshock)

With a stick (Atari 2600) I get terrible control.

[Plasmo]

They're not.

Thread over.

This.

For anything on PC like MAME, I use the keyboard all the time. Got all my STGT '09 scores this way.
For Saturn games, like Garegga, I play with the original Saturn controller.
I use an arcade stick for my PCB's, Batrider, Ibara etc.
And I used to play Ikaruga with the Gamecube original controller's analog stick.

And I feel no difference between all of these. Once you get used to a certain controller, it's as good as any other one.

[Pulsewidth]

I recently switched from keyboard to stick. It's going to take me a long time to get used to it. The only advantage of stick I've noticed is that very short taps are easier and more consistent. If you hold the stick loosely you can flick/slap it and easily move a few pixels. With DDP C type ship I move 2 to 4 pixels with stick, but 2 to 8 pixels with keyboard.

I'd also like to play in an arcade sometime so I need a real stick anyway.

[neorichieb1971]

Do you prefer hand or thumb travel?

The reason I like sticks is because I know where the positions are on the stick. With a joypad I often can't get it just right because its too small. I prefer pads for fighters though, all those round house moves and such I find much harder on a stick.

[Neko]

I prefer sticks more since I'm more accustomed to arcade gaming. Doesn't matter if it's fighters or shmups, my hands are more used to them than d-pads. Plus, it's easier to access the buttons because their placement on an arcade stick; I sometimes have problems playing Raiden when I accidentally press the bomb button on occasions...

I think if you stick with a type of controller long enough, you'll just stick to it when you play other games from the same genre. Hey, I used to play Melty Blood with my keyboard for a period of time

[Drum]

Keyboard > Pad > Stick

Hopefully that clears things up.

Naturally this doesn't always hold true - I've been using my (OG) PSP to play Parodius Portable recently and the d-pad is laughably bad for it. How is it possible that the (also terrible) analog nub is more responsive than the d-pad?

[gamingjustin]

Objectively, an arcade stick wouldn't be of more use to a quadriplegic than a pad or a keyboard so-- yeah-- as others have said it's a moot point.

But standard arcade controls offer more viable ways of controlling a game. Some use the stick underhanded, like holding a wine glass-- different ways to tilt/control it. You can tap buttons fast by alternating index/middle/ring fingers, or do the same with thumb and middle finger to give your wrist a break. I can't think of other ways to use a pad without being silly like holding it upside down or pressing everything with fingers instead of thumbs. Of course, this bit is entirely off-topic but seeing how there are no objective reasons behind using a stick...

[EinhanderZwei]

PSP analog nub (or 'nipple' as my friends call it) is nice for shmups, as long as they have ship speed setting. But in contrast, for fighting games it's always perfect

[kengou]

Did you have to poison the topic before it even started? Dead horse topic, and the topic title strikes me as an attempt to lure out stick extremists (lol) so you can have fun with them. Most people will agree that there are best options for various games, and many will agree that pads are good for certain types of games. Don't see why this needs to be surrounded with an air of controversy and defensive posturing.

You're partially right: I am trying to "lure out stick extremists", sure. But not to "have fun with them", merely to understand their argument. To anyone on here, saying that sticks are not objectively better and that it's all personal preference, I AGREE. I want to hear from those of you who believe sticks ARE objectively better, and I want to understand why you believe this, purely for my own curiosity.

[lawnspic]

I think sticks provide superior control for games like SF, my game improved as soon as i started using it. As far as shmups are concerned i can play almost equally as well with both. On a side note, my Futari high score was done with a stick, well see. I know there is all this talk about the LS-32 being the prefered shmup stick, but i just switched over to a JLW-UM-8 and i love it. The throw range is shorter than a LS-32 IMO. It is overall smoother than the Seimitsu and the spring tension i would say is the same(i believe Salgcoin is incorrect about the sping being to heavy).

[MX7]

Sticks are more fun to use than pads.

[MrPopo]

I think that one thing sticks have going for them is they tend to all handle very similarly. Yes, you can tell a difference between a Neo Geo vs. a Seimetsu stick, but in general if you're good with one stick you'll be good with them all. With pads, however, there is a rediculous amount of variance in the feel. SNES vs. Saturn vs. 360 produce three very different play experiences, and getting good at one can still leave you bad at another.

[Darkseed]

IMO sticks are just more FUN. Thats about it.

[NR777]

Objectively? They're not. Do I prefer them? Yes.

[HamidoOs]

Once you get used to a certain controller, it's as good as any other one.

Sticks are more fun to use than pads.

Agreed.

[ave]

I'm with Plasmo, you can get used to any kind of controls. I swear on my Saturn pad, but I also love to play on a cab.

[kengou]

I recently switched from keyboard to stick. It's going to take me a long time to get used to it. The only advantage of stick I've noticed is that very short taps are easier and more consistent. If you hold the stick loosely you can flick/slap it and easily move a few pixels. With DDP C type ship I move 2 to 4 pixels with stick, but 2 to 8 pixels with keyboard.

This is interesting. For me it's the opposite, with a stick I have a lot of trouble making short tap movements compared to a pad. This doesn't convince me that this is an inherent advantage to sticks, since this could still be attributed to a preference or even a hand-size thing.

But standard arcade controls offer more viable ways of controlling a game. Some use the stick underhanded, like holding a wine glass-- different ways to tilt/control it. You can tap buttons fast by alternating index/middle/ring fingers, or do the same with thumb and middle finger to give your wrist a break. I can't think of other ways to use a pad without being silly like holding it upside down or pressing everything with fingers instead of thumbs. Of course, this bit is entirely off-topic but seeing how there are no objective reasons behind using a stick...

That's a great point, thanks for pointing that out. That's a definite advantage a stick has over a pad in terms of why people might enjoy a stick more than a pad, although I can't say it's major one in terms of why a stick might be better for control than a pad.

I think sticks provide superior control for games like SF, my game improved as soon as i started using it. As far as shmups are concerned i can play almost equally as well with both.

Why is it you think sticks provide superior control for fighters? Why do you believe your game improved when you started using a stick?

I think that one thing sticks have going for them is they tend to all handle very similarly. Yes, you can tell a difference between a Neo Geo vs. a Seimetsu stick, but in general if you're good with one stick you'll be good with them all. With pads, however, there is a rediculous amount of variance in the feel. SNES vs. Saturn vs. 360 produce three very different play experiences, and getting good at one can still leave you bad at another.

Thanks, this is a good point.

[skink]

I find very small movements easier with a stick. I also find circular motions, like moving up and around bullets to be more fluid with a stick. When I use a pad all my movements end up being very "blocky" and not quite as accurate I guess is the best way to describe it. Obviously these are my own shortcomings but it's why I prefer a stick to a pad or even worse a keyboard.

It's a shame half of the responses you got completely ignored what you were asking by not giving any reason at all, or accused you of poisoning the thread even though you were trying so hard to prevent posts exactly like his.

[Jeneki]

Related to this, why are joysticks and thumbpads designed to use your left hand?

It's something I never really thought about, until recently I went back to play a 2600 and noticed the stick is a right-hander. Also a lot of PC shmups default controls are the arrow keys, which on most keyboards would be the right hand.

I seem to do just as good with either hand, so it probably doesn't matter. But I'm just curious.