confessions of a pathetic shmupper

[Accutron]

they are there so people who aren't skilled can still have a good time with the game. They are in Ninja Gaiden for the same reason that they are Donpachi. They are not there for, as you claim, to "buy" high scores since scores reset when you continue.

Yes, continues are there so people who aren't skilled can enjoy the game. I'm glad we're in agreement.

Scores reset now. They didn't in the beginning. You can't define the nature of the continue without examining its origins and history. The 'score-resetting continue' didn't appear from a vacuum...it is an adaptation of the Tempest continue, adapted specifically because continues originally were for buying a high score. Now, continues still cater to the unskilled, but in a different fashion. In either form, continues are product promotion, and are independent of the intended gameplay.

The game mechanics of Ninja Gaiden, or whatever disparate non-shmup you want to toss out, are irrelevant to this discussion. A continue in one game may gut the gameplay, while in another game it merely sends you back to a checkpoint or save spot. I'm talking exclusively about continues in arcade shooters.

And I, as well as plenty of other players who have credit fed games before, can tell you that continuing DOES help your score

I never said playing with multiple/infinite continues would prevent you from improving. I said that playing on one continue will increase your skill more effectively.

[PFG 9000]

You can't define the nature of the continue without examining its origins and history.

You also can't base a discussion of the continue function in the entire genre upon one specific game. Nobody is talking about the continue feature of Tempest specifically, except you. If you want to discuss the purpose of continues in the genre, you need to look at the different ways it is implemented within that genre.

We don't judge all shmups in terms of Galaga and Space Invaders. We don't turn to those early titles to define exactly how bullet patterns or powerup methods should be designed. Games evolve, as do the different features across the genre like rank systems and multiplier methods. You are correct in that we must remember the roots of all these different functions, but you seem to overlook the fact that the purposes of each function differ from game to game.

If continues served a given purpose in Tempest, that has nothing whatsoever to do with the purpose they serve in subsequent games. The score reset is blatant evidence of this.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

I'd just like to say that my cock's bigger than all of yours.


How would you know? Have you somehow used "stealth" that you aquired from playing Splinter Cell and snuck into our bedrooms/showers while we were unaware!?

Seriously peeps...the whole Cock/Dick/Penis size/length= gaming skill is extremely dorky and geeky! I hope you guys know that, right?

Next thing we'll be reading is how you jackoff to anime stuff like Hello Kitty, and "Poke" mon!!

Shmups.com is becoming more like Gamefaqs every second post I swear.

!!!!!TOTAL GEEK ALERT IN THIS THREAD!!!!!













This IS just another dick-length comparison, right?

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

Puter fowl up ^! Somehow my response got all tangled up in BM's quote.

[black mariah]

Puter fowl up ^! Somehow my response got all tangled up in BM's quote.

I'll untangle.

How would you know? Have you somehow used "stealth" that you aquired from playing Splinter Cell and snuck into our bedrooms/showers while we were unaware!?

Well, everyone on this thread is acting like a fucking five year old and I can safely say that my wang is bigger than a five year old's. Before any of you smarmy bastards ask how I know how big a five year old's wang is, I was once five and I've kept a chart... want to see?

Seriously peeps...the whole Cock/Dick/Penis size/length= gaming skill is extremely dorky and geeky! I hope you guys know that, right?

I could have just as easily said "I can pee a 30 foot stream. This IS just a pissing contest, right?" The point is that this is all fucking stupid.

If *I* am calling it fucking stupid, you KNOW there's a problem.

[Nemo]

Wow, I'm simply amazed that there are people on this site that think shooters weren't designed to be played with a single credit. I don't know if I should laugh, cry, or just ignore the ignorance. We might as well just lock up and get rid of the high score forum, it's meaningless because that's not how the games were meant to be played. Yes, the truth all along has been that developers want players to credit-feed so that after they credit-feed through the game once, they have no reason to ever play it again. And here I thought the games made money because players would to come back time after time in hopes of clearing the game with a single credit and achieving a mad score.

This is going to sound harsh, but I feel there needs to be a clause in the TOS that says if you aren't capable of understanding these games were designed to be played with 1 credit, you can't sign up and anyone that is already signed up and doesn't realize this should be banned.

[black mariah]

developers want players to credit-feed so that after they credit-feed through the game once, they have no reason to ever play it again.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever fucking read. Okay, that's not true, it's not as bad as a Recap post, but it's up there.

I credit feed practically every shmup I play. If I actually have FUN playing through it, I'll play it some more. People don't stop playing games just because they 'beat' the game.

[Nemo]

developers want players to credit-feed so that after they credit-feed through the game once, they have no reason to ever play it again.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever fucking read. Okay, that's not true, it's not as bad as a Recap post, but it's up there.

I credit feed practically every shmup I play. If I actually have FUN playing through it, I'll play it some more. People don't stop playing games just because they 'beat' the game.

It's "fun" to render the level design, score system, and challenge all meaningless? No offense, but are you 5? OOH, I jus like blwoing tings up, dats why I play this games.

[it290]

I don't think continues will really help improve your skills much in instant-respawn shmups (because the part you need to improve on has already passed), and so I don't use them for those, but in a game like Pulstar or Truxton they can be helpful because you have to play the same part over and over until you get it right. There's still satisfaction in beating a game that way (especially the likes of Pulstar), because you know you didn't just bomb/invincible-respawn your way through.

[black mariah]

It's "fun" to render the level design, score system, and challenge all meaningless? No offense, but are you 5? OOH, I jus like blwoing tings up, dats why I play this games.

Ever notice how the more 'hardcore' a shmupper is, the more likely they are to be condescending asshats?

Yes, I play because I like blowing shit up. Tell me I'm wrong for saying that and I'll tell you in precisely which orifice and in what manner you can get fucked.

[Rob]

I like where this is going.

[Nemo]

It's "fun" to render the level design, score system, and challenge all meaningless? No offense, but are you 5? OOH, I jus like blwoing tings up, dats why I play this games.

Ever notice how the more 'hardcore' a shmupper is, the more likely they are to be condescending asshats?

Yes, I play because I like blowing shit up. Tell me I'm wrong for saying that and I'll tell you in precisely which orifice and in what manner you can get fucked.

I don't care if you use codes, turn on "easy mode", or credit-feed, how you ultimately play is up to you whether I think it's ridiculous or not. I'm sure there are people that think it's fun to play football by having no out-of-bounds, running after they are tackled, and throwing the ball to themselves, but the bottom line is that there is a right and wrong way to play shooting games like there is a right and wrong way to play football. And if you choose to not play by the rules, don't act like they don't exist, that's an insulting to the people who play games the way they are supposed to be played.

[Damocles]

I'm sure there are people that think it's fun to play football by having no out-of-bounds, running after they are tackled, and throwing the ball to themselves, but the bottom line is that there is a right and wrong way to play shooting games like there is a right and wrong way to play football. And if you choose to not play by the rules, don't act like they don't exist, that's an insulting to the people who play games the way they are supposed to be played.

Damn....and all along I thought the sole purpose of a game was to have fun.......my life has been a lie. I'd comment about how that verges on contradicting the previous statement, but won't.

Just a random thought, but has anyone ever noticed that credit-feeders, as a whole, are generally more laid back about this sort of thing? You don't really hear them creating threads about moral shmupping habits...unless they feel guilty. For that, I salute you all. Down with useless morality threads! Be a hedonist! Have fun!

[Nemo]

I'm sure there are people that think it's fun to play football by having no out-of-bounds, running after they are tackled, and throwing the ball to themselves, but the bottom line is that there is a right and wrong way to play shooting games like there is a right and wrong way to play football. And if you choose to not play by the rules, don't act like they don't exist, that's an insulting to the people who play games the way they are supposed to be played.

Damn....and all along I thought the sole purpose of a game was to have fun.......my life has been a lie. I'd comment about how that verges on contradicting the previous statement, but won't.

If you can't have fun playing games the right way, then maybe you picked a bad genre to get into, or maybe the lack of even wanting to play the games the right way has left you ignorant to how much fun they can actually be. Is it really fun to use a game genie and suck all the life out of a game, because that is the same thing as credit-feeding. But I digress, I'm not going to try and convert people, you can play games anyway you see fit, and what's fun for you is your own business, so have at it, no one is stopping you. Now if you play football the way I detailed in my last post and you step into a public setting to play a football game, don't be surprised if the other players find your style of playing quite ridiculous. But of course you could always call them "elititists" and reassure yourself that playing football the way it was meant to be played is no fun and a waste of time.

[black mariah]

Now if you play football the way I detailed in my last post and you step into a public setting to play football game, don't be surprised if the other players find your style of playing quite ridiculous. But of course you could always call them elititists and reassure yourself that playing football the way it was meant to be played is no fun and a waste of time.

Now you're just being a fucking dumbass (I hear the "BAN" button being clicked somewhere... fuck it).

Okay, which set of football rules ("the right way" "the way it's meant to be played") are we going by? NFL rules? College rules? NFL Europe rules? CFL? Australian rules? Or do we have an international barrier and you're talking about soccer? Indoor soccer or outdoor soccer? Friendly or match? Pro or amateur?

ALL RULES ARE ARBITRARY and to act like there is ONE CORRECT WAY to play a game is just fucking dumb.

And seriously, if you didn't care, you wouldn't have posted.

*BANNED ASS*NO CARRIER*

[Nemo]

Okay, which set of football rules ("the right way" "the way it's meant to be played") are we going by? NFL rules? College rules? NFL Europe rules? CFL? Australian rules? Or do we have an international barrier and you're talking about soccer? Indoor soccer or outdoor soccer? Friendly or match? Pro or amateur?

Take your pick, it doesn't matter as long as you're playing legitimately, and no matter which you choose, all the versions are governed by basic principles. Lucky for you though, shooters aren't as diversified as football, therefore there's only a few simple things that need to be followed to play them with legitimacy.

ALL RULES ARE ARBITRARY and to act like there is ONE CORRECT WAY to play a game is just fucking dumb.

And seriously, if you didn't care, you wouldn't have posted.

Rules give meaning and purpose to the things they govern. And who said there is one correct way to play a game, there are unlimited ways to play a game within its established parameters. I also didn't post because I cared how you play shooters, I posted because I care when someone says the legitimate way to play shooters is arbitrary. This is a forum dedicated to shooting games for loyal fans of the genre, there should be no need to have conversations about things like credit-feeding because everyone here who is serious about the genre (90% of posters) already understands the rules of playing these games. I mean what's next, are we going to have to discuss that you're supposed to dodge bullets and not run into them?

[Damocles]

[quote="Nemo]If you can't have fun playing games the right way, then maybe you picked a bad genre to get into, or maybe the lack of even wanting to play the games the right way has left you ignorant to how much fun they can actually be. Is it really fun to use a game genie and suck all the life out of a game, because that is the same thing as credit-feeding. But I digress, I'm not going to try and convert people, you can play games anyway you see fit, and what's fun for you is your own business, so have at it, no one is stopping you. Now if you play football the way I detailed in my last post and you step into a public setting to play a football game, don't be surprised if the other players find your style of playing quite ridiculous. But of course you could always call them "elititists" and reassure yourself that playing football the way it was meant to be played is no fun and a waste of time.[/quote]

I suppose I have completely lost where you are coming from, Nemo. You start off by basically saying that playing a game on only one credit offers the most amount of fun for everyone, which simply isn't the case. **Sidenote: The same would be said pertaining to the issue of playing for score** You mentioned football, so lets run with that topic. First, however, lets throw out the notion that someone who plays by their own rules would ever "step into a public setting". That topic takes care of itself, as far as I'm concerned. On to football. Football is slow. Some people thought it would be fun if the speed was increased. We now have Arena football. It's merely a variant. Now, I'm not going to get into what anyone would define as the "soul" of a sport, since we would be treading on purely subjective grounds. However, it's the same core game, just modified. Would you say that it is without merit? Granted, comparing Arena football to American football is less drastic than the aforementioned topic. I suppose my overall point is that there is no right or wrong way to play. You have the people who play for 1cc, the people who play for score (sub-category of the 1cc'ers more than likely), the credit-feeders, the people who play for the visuals, and those who just play for no good reason. I think I'll stop before I start sounding like a hippie.

By the way, I do think all forms of football are boring, and would much rather play catch with friends......and I even played the damn sport....

Damn....five minutes of my life defending why games are fun....that'll be the end of that....

[Marc]

I used a credit on Border Down last night... am I going to hell now ?

[Danny]

TBH how cares if somebody uses credits or not. Differnt strokes for differnt folks as they say. I wish people one these boards would stop trying to be ellitist because it's fairly off putting for new people on these fourms.

Yeah we get you're point about playing the game so that you skill is merited but you also have to look at the other side of the coin and that some poeple "shock horror" just play the game to blow stuff up and there is nothing wrong with that, they just like shmups a differnt reason to why you like them and that still makes them a of fan of shmups at least they are still supporting the geneder and not "blowing stuff up" on other more modern types of games like the hoardes of quite frankly crap first person shooters out there.

[Ord]

I used a credit on Border Down last night... am I going to hell now ?

Apparently so.

[Elixir]

Another 'I suck at shmups' thread...It's that time of the week already???

Well, I didn't say that I suck at shmups. I'm certainly a whole lot better than everyone I know. My point is more this: I'm finding that there are real advantages to playing games in ways that most people on this forum would consider lame ways of playing (e.g. playing on Easy and credit feeding).

Specifically you said you were pathetic, and I'd like to point this out because "pathetic" is on a level of depth and can be taken with more of an impact, from what "I suck" currently is.

And thus, I'll play along. Right now, I've found myself imitating videos that I've seen. Which doesn't really help, and causes me more trouble then it's worth. I don't think watching videos helps you gain anything aside from a couple of tactics and jealousy. For Ikaruga I've noticed this.

Oh well.

[Danny]

The only shmup video's I watch are review movies like the Neogeo one that kaiken made... that was a good video.

[sethsez]

Wow, I'm simply amazed that there are people on this site that think shooters weren't designed to be played with a single credit. I don't know if I should laugh, cry, or just ignore the ignorance. We might as well just lock up and get rid of the high score forum, it's meaningless because that's not how the games were meant to be played. Yes, the truth all along has been that developers want players to credit-feed so that after they credit-feed through the game once, they have no reason to ever play it again. And here I thought the games made money because players would to come back time after time in hopes of clearing the game with a single credit and achieving a mad score.

Arcade games exist to make money. Continues were implemented because they result in more money for the arcade owners. That's it. If they didn't make more money and they weren't intended to be played that way, then guess what? Continues wouldn't be included in the first place. Since they do make money, they're included even though they unbalance the game. This is simple.

Yes, from a pure design point, every game is designed so they could be played and beaten on a single credit. This is not some major revelation. And neither I, nor anybody else, said there was anything wrong with one-credit playing or going for a high score, so please stop being purposefully obtuse. What I'm saying is that using extra credits is not cheating. You might think it's cheap. You might think it's unfair. You might think it ruins the balance of the game. All these are perfectly valid points, which is why every single high score forum, contest, whatever allows only one credit, because it does unbalance the game. But it's not cheating, because it's actively put in the game and pushed with big flashing numbers and dramatic music by the developers. It's not a glitch, it's not a code, and the developers clearly intended it as an option. If you think utilizing it is cheating, then you obviously don't understand the definition of the word. It doesn't mean "a rule I don't like," nor does it mean "something that makes the game unfair." If the NFL had a rule that allowed a team to pay $10,000,000 to win a game instantly, it would be unfair, cheap, and stupid. It would completely unbalance the game. But if a team did it, they'd be operating within the rules, so they wouldn't be cheating.

I really don't know how much more obvious this can be.

[Acid King]

Yes, continues are there so people who aren't skilled can enjoy the game. I'm glad we're in agreement.

If we're in agreement on why they are there, why do you keep bringing up product promotion and "score buying", a problem that doesn't exist anymore?

Scores reset now. They didn't in the beginning. You can't define the nature of the continue without examining its origins and history. The 'score-resetting continue' didn't appear from a vacuum...it is an adaptation of the Tempest continue, adapted specifically because continues originally were for buying a high score. Now, continues still cater to the unskilled, but in a different fashion. In either form, continues are product promotion, and are independent of the intended gameplay.

The game mechanics of Ninja Gaiden, or whatever disparate non-shmup you want to toss out, are irrelevant to this discussion. A continue in one game may gut the gameplay, while in another game it merely sends you back to a checkpoint or save spot. I'm talking exclusively about continues in arcade shooters.

Actually, they aren't irrelevent because they serve the same purprose in Ninja Gaiden that they do in Ikaruga. Continues don't "gut" the gameplay. Continues don't change the way the game is played because as you said, continues are not a gameplay element and therefore cannot have a direct effect on any games actual gameplay or how they play. All they do is make the game easier to play through. Just because a game 20 years ago had a problem with the continue feature does not mean that said problem still exists, because it doesn't. That problem has been remedied and thus your point about Tempest is moot.

I never said playing with multiple/infinite continues would prevent you from improving. I said that playing on one continue will increase your skill more effectively.

Which is completely and totally debateable.

[Accutron]

Yes, continues are there so people who aren't skilled can enjoy the game. I'm glad we're in agreement.

If we're in agreement on why they are there, why do you keep bringing up product promotion and "score buying", a problem that doesn't exist anymore?

How is selling out to the unwashed masses not product promotion? The Tempest continue was product promotion, and the modern continue is product promotion. They work a bit differently, but the effect is similar...artificial inflation of accomplishment, which can be bought on demand. Whether you're buying a high score or buying the end credits, it's all the same thing.

The game mechanics of Ninja Gaiden, or whatever disparate non-shmup you want to toss out, are irrelevant to this discussion. A continue in one game may gut the gameplay, while in another game it merely sends you back to a checkpoint or save spot. I'm talking exclusively about continues in arcade shooters.

Actually, they aren't irrelevent because they serve the same purprose in Ninja Gaiden that they do in Ikaruga.

They serve the same purpose, but go about it in a different way. The differences makes all the difference. Continues, when applied intelligently with a checkpoint system, aren't a big deal.

Continues don't "gut" the gameplay.

Yes, they most certainly do (except in shooters with checkpoints).

Continues don't change the way the game is played because as you said, continues are not a gameplay element and therefore cannot have a direct effect on any games actual gameplay or how they play.

Thus my complaint. They are a gameplay-independent feature which affects the gameplay adversely, by attacking it from the outside. I would complain just as much if a game got easier when you turned the sound up, in which case I'd probably be arguing with a bunch of deaf people.

All they do is make the game easier to play through.

Oh, is that all they do? All a nuclear bomb does is vaporize a large city. You know what makes chess easier? Playing with 16 queens. People who use continues habitually in shooters need to find a different (easier) hobby.

I never said playing with multiple/infinite continues would prevent you from improving. I said that playing on one continue will increase your skill more effectively.

Which is completely and totally debateable.

We could take a survey, but I don't think you would be pleased with the results.

[TVG]

lol

[sethsez]

selling out to the unwashed masses

hahahahaha

The differences makes all the difference.

You don't say?

[Rob]

How did this thread get derailed from putting down replay watchers? No continues ever? Are you recap? What's wrong with you?

[Accutron]

How did this thread get derailed from putting down replay watchers? No continues ever? Are you recap? What's wrong with you?

Who said no continues ever? I sure didn't. I've been exclusively talking about habitually abusing continues...mashing the start button to get all the way through a game as a matter of course.

[Rob]

Wow, I'm simply amazed that there are people on this site that think shooters weren't designed to be played with a single credit. I don't know if I should laugh, cry, or just ignore the ignorance. ... .... ....

No, whether or not you believe it's true, 1-crediting a shooter is a sub-challenge in itself. If it wasn't, the option to continue wouldn't be there in the first place. The only reason you believe it's standard issue is because it's frowned upon by people.

So.