Why shmups are such a niche genre

[EPS21]

Games don't casual people
People casual people.

[kid aphex]

nothing about a game makes it inherently hardcore or casual.
any game can be approached from any mindset regardless of its gameplay.
peggle can be played to death and mastered. so can wii sports.
likewise, i can credit feed Batrider or Ikaruga just to hear the music.

All games are made with a target demographic.

the movement of the industry is to develop games that appeal to both casual and hardcore players---thats why there are mind-bogglingly difficult achievements in peggle. smart game developers are incorporating incentives for both types of players. stupid ones aren't. a companies target demographic is everyone --- there's nothing cool, interesting, or unique about a developer catering to anything less than that. its just stifling.

skill based demographic targeting is pretty fucking stupid, from a business standpoint. its why the genre is on the fringe of the medium.

[Udderdude]

casual don't casual casual
casual casual casual.

[kid aphex]

casual don't casual casual
casual casual casual.

are all 1800 of your posts are insightful?

[captpain]

a companies target demographic is everyone --- there's nothing cool, interesting, or unique about a developer catering to anything less than that. its just stifling.

Yeah, it's really not cool that highly specialized gameplay is being produced for fans of that type of gameplay. That just sounds... awful... something being made for the fans.

[Taylor]

the movement of the industry is to develop games that appeal to both casual and hardcore players---thats why there are mind-bogglingly difficult achievements in peggle. smart game developers are incorporating incentives for both types of players. stupid ones aren't. a companies target demographic is everyone --- there's nothing cool, interesting, or unique about a developer catering to anything less than that. its just stifling.

skill based demographic targeting is pretty fucking stupid, from a business standpoint. its why the genre is on the fringe of the medium.

I did not say that all games are made with a target demographic and unquestionably abhor all other possible demographics. Popcap might include some odd hardcore incentives, but their games are still aimed predominately at the casual market – therefore they are casual games. People have been using for shorthand for a while.

Hitting as many customers as possible is not smart; it is common sense. But there are other factors here, like time and money (if you’re making a shmup you are unlikely to have either), and some games simply wouldn’t sell more if they were made more accessible. For example Etrian Odyssey and Demon’s Souls are made on shoestring budgets and their entire attraction is being hardcore, dungeon crawlers.

I would say shmups are, for the most part, in that camp. But realistically a lot of modern shmups are opening themselves up. Most Jeff Minter inspired dual stick shooters are made with easy difficulty curves or so comically hard you expect to die in two seconds anyway. Cave has to abide by coin-op, but all their recent releases have lowered the entry level required, be it with selectable difficulty, stage orders, optional routes, cutesy art-styles, or score detrimental super-weapons. This is even truer in the home releases, with the abolishment of difficulty select caps or adding entire novice modes.

[AraraSPAMWitch]

thanks to digital distribution and the availability of games on any/every medium, all sorts of games/mechanics are being introduced to all sorts of audiences, and people are playing games for all different reasons.

i've been on these forums since way before 2005...this genre makes itself niche. discussion of shmups takes place in far off corners of the internet, or in largely ignored threads on popular boards. the games are overpriced. they're quickly out of print. supporters of the genre are the most stubborn of any genre in the entire medium. it feels as if the large majority of them dislike digital distribution when its the one thing that'd open up the genre, creatively.

Actually, this is a really good point. Games like Aegis Wing and 1942: Joint Strike really prove that the digital distribution model really allows developers to get creative and entertaining games out to the masses, games that can be enjoyed by casual and hardcore audiences alike. It's just a shame that some fans are too pig-headed to realize that you can have just as much fun playing Aegis Wing as the latest cookie-cutter japanese arcade game.

[Udderdude]

IHBT.

[orange]

yeah is that guy fakepostin or what in the fuck

[AraraSPAMWitch]

You are clueless. There's a reason Japanese arcade shmups continue to be played years after they've been out, and it isn't because they're "cookie cutter". That description actually fits generic crap like Aegis Wing much better.

You have a brain made of 89 cent burritos if you think that kusoge like Mankohime-sama are better than Aegis Wing.

[SFKhoa]

lol now u just trollin'

[orange]

yo how did i not notice that sarcasm face @ the end man the internet is a rough place i'll tell ya

[SFKhoa]

lmfao

[Otai]

I'm new here and I hope that this post isn't spam or trolling.

Shmups, to me (at least for the freeware indie and doujin ones, which I play the most compared to the commercial ones), has basically same formula that any variants looked not too much different (I view Senko no Ronde as Bullet Hell fighting game rather than VS shmups). If looked this way, it seemed to be not evolving in terms of gameplay, despite there are attempts to merge it with other genres like Sigma Star Saga, Knights in the Nightmare and Valkyrie Sky which are just a few percent of the shmup genre.

Plus, my friends called those games "kiddish", even when they are freakin' hard bullet hell (I usually won't get through the long train section of Raiden Fighters II in one credit, but oddly I can 1cc easy mode of Eden's Aegis.) Perhaps the character shmups make such a thing happen even more, despite never judge a "game" from its cover. Some of my friends say that they repetitive, which cannot stay away from shooting enemies while dodging bullets. With my own experience, they actually vary from feeling peaceful by shooting cute enemies which might not do little of reflexive work, to blasting through humongous aircrafts that will make ruin my arrow keys, yet they view both extremes as the same thing.

I don't want shmups gone mainstream because that will bring shmups to the same problem that is now in popular genres like RPGs, FPSes and so on. But at least for the console market shmups started to grow a little bit and indie/doujin shmups (including flash ones) are growing like crazy.

Speaking of casual/hardcore, the games are indeed targeted with certain demographics, but this never mean that people outside of the intended demographic can't enjoy the games. I can play GTA to enjoy the story rather than go beat people up.

Maybe a better version of Sigma Star Saga will bring impact like Ikaruga, but that might a far fetched as most shmups are now still stuck with the traditional formula. What I'm positive with this shmup genre, though is indie/doujin games will have a significant percentage of shmups.

[replayme]

i've been on these forums since way before 2005...this genre makes itself niche. discussion of shmups takes place in far off corners of the internet, or in largely ignored threads on popular boards. the games are overpriced. they're quickly out of print. supporters of the genre are the most stubborn of any genre in the entire medium. it feels as if the large majority of them dislike digital distribution when its the one thing that'd open up the genre, creatively.

long story short: why would anyone actively seek out the genre? its difficult, expensive, and the community is assholic.

i like this guy.

the movement of the industry is to develop games that appeal to both casual and hardcore players---thats why there are mind-bogglingly difficult achievements in peggle. smart game developers are incorporating incentives for both types of players. stupid ones aren't. a companies target demographic is everyone --- there's nothing cool, interesting, or unique about a developer catering to anything less than that. its just stifling.

skill based demographic targeting is pretty fucking stupid, from a business standpoint. its why the genre is on the fringe of the medium.

i like this guy even more.




bring on xenon 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rob]

You like shitshmups.

[EinhanderZwei]

I remember a trilogy of games on the NES... not shmups, but hardcore platformers... They had awesome story that didn't really interrupt the experience - in fact, the cutscenes seemed like the rewards for fucking with the actual levels. I don't really remember the name of the series, but it certainly had sometthing to do with ninjas... and the word 'gaiden'... Ninja... Gaiden... I think it was Kirby's Adventure

[BIL]

About as relevant as MGS.

[EinhanderZwei]

About as relevant as MGS.

Yeah, but platformers are closer to shmups in terms of pace, difficulty and niche-ness than interactive movies

[Dragoforce]

I have a cat.

[BIL]

Yeah, but platformers are closer to shmups in terms of pace, difficulty and niche-ness than interactive movies

Not these days. There are shooters from the 8/16-bit eras with Ninja Gaiden-esque cinematics, but they were also about as deep as those games (get to end of level without getting killed, indiscriminately wiping out any opposition). Shooters have moved on, despite what replayme's shitposting would suggest.

I doubt anyone who plays the more competitive shooters that've essentially taken over since the mid-90s is seriously pining for cutscenes... and anyone put off by these games probably won't be swayed by their inclusion either. Even if they were, they'd just be attracted to a gimmick rather than the game itself.

[EinhanderZwei]

And that's indeed what sums up the whole topic:

Not these days

[xris]

I dont want cutscenes, but can we have an ending thats more than a pic and text? 25 years later, and it's still dissapointing. Flying away during credits is overdone, you should crash for low score.

[BIL]

And that's indeed what sums up the whole topic:

Not these days

Well, yeah. That's how the cookie has crumbled... I doubt shooters would've had even the niche foothold they do today, if their response to the mid-90s 3D shift was longer cutscenes instead of more developed gameplay.

[NR777]

And that's indeed what sums up the whole topic:

Not these days

Well, yeah. That's how the cookie has crumbled... I doubt shooters would've had even the niche foothold they do today, if their response to the mid-90s 3D shift was longer cutscenes instead of more developed gameplay.

I also think a lot of the "blame" can be placed on some of the conventions of modern game design, such as spoonfeeding "depth" (via tutorials and other hand-holding techniques) to players rather than letting them discover it themselves. In fact, the lack of a sense of discovery is something I really hate about most "mainstream" games these days.

[Exarion]

Maybe we should market shmups to the challenge gamers? The most prominent shmup example would be a touhou player named GIL. There are people like him in other games, and they would most likely respond well to shmups, especially playing for score.

[EPS21]

Maybe we should market shmups to the challenge gamers? The most prominent shmup example would be a touhou player named GIL. There are people like him in other games, and they would most likely respond well to shmups, especially playing for score.

If those few exceptional players are willing to pay $10000+ for a copy of the game, sure. They might just break even then.

[lgb]

a companies target demographic is everyone --- there's nothing cool, interesting, or unique about a developer catering to anything less than that. its just stifling.

This contradicts itself.

[Danbo]

the movement of the industry is to develop games that appeal to both casual and hardcore players---thats why there are mind-bogglingly difficult achievements in peggle. smart game developers are incorporating incentives for both types of players. stupid ones aren't. a companies target demographic is everyone --- there's nothing cool, interesting, or unique about a developer catering to anything less than that. its just stifling.

name every game you enjoy and i could specify a group of people the game is not intended for. it's difficult to believe that a single game can cater to the needs/wants of everyone who plays videogames and retain any degree of focus at all.

[NR777]

Show me a game that attempts to be all things to all people and I will show you a game that sucks at everything it does.