Rambling shmups talk

[kid aphex]

lol, glad i mention how prickish this community is during the podcast

[Danbo]

I feel that you spoke about Ikaruga for 5+ minutes without saying anything at all. You failed to discuss the gameplay mechanics of it at all, and surely everything else in a shmup is immaterial. All you did was ramble about how beautiful it is, and nobody wants to hear people jerk off about what is after all (and this is only the generally held opinion here) a shitty memorizer game. Talking about metaphysics and comparing it to Picasso, etc. Please understand that everyone here is absolutely sick of Ikaruga being rated the top shmup of all time, the ultimate game, a life changing experience, when it is barely even a shmup in my eyes.

Also Dimahoo had a polarity gimmick before Ikaruga came out and the only reception it got on the podcast was a long and annoying sigh from one of you. Part 1 started out quite nice and scholarly, talking about how different trends and mechanics started to evolve, and Part 2 is too much like a long string of uninteresting namedrops with some neat music behind it.

[kid aphex]

lol, glad i mention how prickish this community is during the podcast

lol, glad i mention how prickish this community is during the podcast

I feel that you spoke about Ikaruga for 5+ minutes without saying anything at all. You failed to discuss the gameplay mechanics of it at all, and surely everything else in a shmup is immaterial. All you did was ramble about how beautiful it is, and nobody wants to hear people jerk off about what is after all (and this is only the generally held opinion here) a shitty memorizer game. Talking about metaphysics and comparing it to Picasso, etc. Please understand that everyone here is absolutely sick of Ikaruga being rated the top shmup of all time, the ultimate game, a life changing experience, when it is barely even a shmup in my eyes.

the divide, apparently, is whether or not you feel 'gameplay' is all there is to talk about in a shmup.
is it really necessary to review the gameplay mechanics of what is (as you yourself acknowledge) perhaps the most talked about shmup in the past ten years?
id rather express my opinion than regurgitate a popular one---or read aloud a faq.
thems some interestin discussin

Also Dimahoo had a polarity gimmick before Ikaruga came out and the only reception it got on the podcast was a long and annoying sigh from one of you. Part 1 started out quite nice and scholarly, talking about how different trends and mechanics started to evolve, and Part 2 is too much like a long string of uninteresting namedrops with some neat music behind it.

dimahoo was relegated to a brief mention because i think its a terrible fucking game.
our discussion of the genre isnt objective --- something we state in the podcast several times.
to even refer to the first episode as scholarly....weird
as with every episode of the cast, its a slow dive into our minds and thats it
regardless, even i notice the degradation of discussion...its a result of restlessness and the fact was i playing spaced invaders extreme during the discussion

[captpain]

1. the divide, apparently, is whether or not you feel 'gameplay' is all there is to talk about in a shmup

2. is it really necessary to review the gameplay mechanics of what is (as you yourself acknowledge) perhaps the most talked about shmup in the past ten years?

3. id rather express my opinion than regurgitate a popular one---or read aloud a faq.

1. Gameplay is the most important thing in any shmup. The game is 95% about its mechanics, and 5% about its aesthetics.

2. Yes.

3. All you did was regurgitate a popular opinion, in especially ridiculous exaggeration.

I really hope this second podcast was just a troll.

[Udderdude]

is it really necessary to review the gameplay mechanics of what is (as you yourself acknowledge) perhaps the most talked about shmup in the past ten years?

Maybe you should ask yourself if it's necessary to talk about it at all? Especially if all you're going to do is waft about how it's a "transcendental work of art"? (hint: no)

[kid aphex]

Maybe you should ask yourself if it's necessary to talk about it at all? Especially if all you're going to do is waft about how it's a "transcendental work of art"? (hint: no)

hint: its not NECESSARY to mention anything in a totally extraneous podcast that is offered to the public free of charge and done for the entertainment of the two people producing it.

[kid aphex]

1. the divide, apparently, is whether or not you feel 'gameplay' is all there is to talk about in a shmup

2. is it really necessary to review the gameplay mechanics of what is (as you yourself acknowledge) perhaps the most talked about shmup in the past ten years?

3. id rather express my opinion than regurgitate a popular one---or read aloud a faq.

1. Gameplay is the most important thing in any shmup. The game is 95% about its mechanics, and 5% about its aesthetics.

2. Yes.

3. All you did was regurgitate a popular opinion, in especially ridiculous exaggeration.

I really hope this second podcast was just a troll.

i really hope you are a troll.

[lgb]

gameplay is the most important aspect of a game, this is the entire point of a game.

not a "video game", a "game".

[Square King]

You don't get to spout a ridiculous string of pseudo-philosophical gibberish about the hilariously pretentious, juvenile, and cliched aesthetics of A GAME and then say "Opinions, relax!"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion

I feel that you spoke about Ikaruga for 5+ minutes without saying anything at all.

It is your podcast, aphex, but this happens a lot.

[man9child]

For what it's worth, I really enjoyed the podcast. Thanks for posting a link here.

So the hosts like Ikaruga. And what of it? A lot of people do.

I understand if you're sick of hearing people praise the game, but bashing the game for being a "shitty memorizer" isn't fair. Sure, to score well you have to memorize the thing, but how is something like Dodonpachi any different? And it's even more demanding in Pachi, because not only do you have to know where to shoot, but when to shoot as there is a time based element as well. Unless of course you meant that, "for a memorizer, Ikaruga is shitty." I don't agree, but fine.

Regardless, I don't see anyone else providing comparable content. Maybe because unless you subscribe to the majority opinion here you're called out as a moron?

[Danbo]

memorization is necessary in ikaruga for survival - without knowing what's coming up next, it can be suprisingly easy to shoot the wrong stuff and end up with a big old cloud of white+black undodgeable shit coming at you, which is something that really distinguishes it from a shmup in my opinion (how easy it is to get into completely unwinnable situations). dodonpachi scoring is shit, everyone knows this.

"comparable content" my arse. "let's see you do better" is not a response to any sort of criticism...

[man9child]

I just meant that this board is very quick to tear people down. I wonder if that makes people apprehenisve about putting together a project like this to risk sticking their neck out. Personally I feel like my Radiant Silvergun avatar might as well be a "kick me" sign on my back around here.

I like the chaining in Dai-Ou-Jou. The Hyper adds a nice dynamic.

Isn't it necessary to memorize most shooters to survive anyway? I'm not even talking about the super obvious horizontal stuff like R-Type here. I can't imagine anyone ever getting very far on a Psikyo shooter on their first go simply because the bullets move so fast you sort of have to know what's coming with the later boss patterns. I'll agree that the memorization feels more upfront in Ikaruga. I've really got to be in the mood to play it because it takes a commitment to relearning the levels every time I come back to it.

[Rob]

I thought a lot of Ray's (?) comments on different eras and games were good ones. RSG and Ikaruga fandom is only annoying to me if they're just the default greatest shooters ever from people who haven't played anything and don't even chain in those two.

[undamned]

I thought a lot of Ray's (?) comments on different eras and games were good ones. RSG and Ikaruga fandom is only annoying to me if they're just the default greatest shooters ever from people who haven't played anything and don't even chain in those two.

Indeed.

To all you haters, just pretend you are eavesdropping on someone else's conversation. It doesn't have to be to your liking. I was beside myself that they didn't mention Defender when they were talking about early hori's, but they aren't me and their personal history w/ games is different than mine.

Ray and Sean certainly have an artistic outlook on stuff (check out their other podcasts for reference, heh) and that's just how they enjoy things. No harm there. In fact the shame is on those who don't/can't appreciate the artistic aspect of games that the creators poured a lot of themselves into.
-ud

[kid aphex]

the third part is up---if you hated the first two, this discussion may kill you
note: the remarks about the forum being hate-filled were recorded long before this thread existed
to those who enjoyed it, awesome
to those who didnt, awesome
thanks for listening

[captpain]

Ray and Sean certainly have an artistic outlook on stuff (check out their other podcasts for reference, heh) and that's just how they enjoy things. No harm there. In fact the shame is on those who don't/can't appreciate the artistic aspect of games that the creators poured a lot of themselves into.
-ud

There's an implication here that people who don't enjoy the "meaningful" aspects of Ikaruga and Company are somehow not capable of recognizing or understanding the artistic intent of the developers. This is not the case. It's fully possible to be sensitive to subtlety and nuance and still dislike almost everything about the game.

[Rob]

About games that have the same qualities as arcade shooters: Left 4 Dead. You guys were tearing into L4D2 in an earlier show, but I think it has most of the common traits found in arcade shooters and does something novel with them. I was surprised it wasn't picked up on or appreciated.

[kid aphex]

About games that have the same qualities as arcade shooters: Left 4 Dead. You guys were tearing into L4D2 in an earlier show, but I think it has most of the common traits found in arcade shooters and does something novel with them. I was surprised it wasn't picked up on or appreciated.

you're right---we both actually really like the original l4d.
we didnt mention edf2017 either, which is somewhat similar, and a game we mention on pretty much every podcast.
i dont know why though

[captpain]

Listening to the third podcast...

People don't consider Metal Slug a "true" shmup because (probably among other things) of the player-controlled scrolling and movement physics. It's really not just a horizontal Guwange, when it comes right down to it. It does own, though.

[captpain]

Ahh! Shmups are not primitive, graphically. Look at DFK, for crying out loud. 2D != Primitive. You were right, you guys are driving me crazy.

[DJ Incompetent]

Shmups are not primitive, graphically.

Most are. We know of exceptions. They are good.
haha, play more Milestone. Or Raiden 3/4. Or Shikigamis. I imagine many need the visual step-down to maintain framerate, but whatever. Most STGs still don't look pretty.
----

You party people lay out a pretty good podcast. I enjoy the new viewpoints on the scene. Actually I like listening to you guys talk in general. My new Mushi scores seem to agree with this. I think I'll latch onto your show when I get me podcast collector software back up 'n runnin'. Your banner on your website is awesome classy.


Thanks for the shouts ^_^ Ya motivated me to get back to work on the new mix. I think I'll go do that.

[captpain]

Shmups are not primitive, graphically.

Most are. We know of exceptions. They are good.
haha, play more Milestone. Or Raiden 3/4. Or Shikigamis. I imagine many need the visual step-down to maintain framerate, but whatever. Most STGs still don't look pretty.

Alright... maybe so, but then do what games do we mostly talk about here? Cave games, Raizing games, and so on. These 'exceptions' are usually what shmup fans play, and they really aren't primitive.

[kid aphex]

compared to what's currently possible in the videogame industry, shmups are graphically primitive. the end

[devilmanozzy]

compared to what's currently possible in the videogame industry, shmups are graphically primitive. the end

Yeah thats true, but is the easy graphically advanced game you beat in 6 hours and could care less to play again cause its gameplay is plain "boring"........really with comparing. Buy the new Gradius/Darius games and sit back. Also keep the faith! lol

I'm a bit disappointed in the lack of detailing the 2600-snes/gensis history in the first podcast. I perfer time given to both spacewar and asteroids which were true popular games during the late 70's. Sorry I think oldschool is after 1990, not 2000. Then again, maybe I'm just old.....I'm only 29 !

Space invaders is a Fixed shooter btw. Classic game tho. Thanks for spending time on it.

Your coverage of the horizontal shooters has been pretty good. Love Darius, R-Type, and Gradius. Like said Defender needs more time. Did you guys cover Thunderforce?.....I still want more as it is a interest weapon system.....

I'm a bit disappointed in the comments on the Raiden series. It's a completing/point based game. It's not about graphics.

Sometimes it's hard to know what games you guys talk about as you either pronounce the names oddly off or you keep calling the name of the game by is sequel.....Gaiden....Gaiden....Gaiden.....Why not say Darius Gaiden and Gradius Gaiden? Its less confusing.

[Taylor]

They are graphically primitive because they are made for primitive hardware and/or on shoestring budgets. Complaining about it is very unappreciative, especially given how nice some come out even with these constraints.

[kid aphex]

They are graphically primitive because they are made for primitive hardware and/or on shoestring budgets. Complaining about it is very unappreciative, especially given how nice some come out even with these constraints.

no one's complaining.

[captpain]

Stylized, well-drawn, and well-animated 2D graphics aren't primitive just because they're 2D.

[kid aphex]

Stylized, well-drawn, and well-animated 2D graphics aren't primitive just because they're 2D.

compared to graphical peaks of the industry? you're arguing from some place far away from common sense.

[Battletoad]

I´d also say "primitive" is the wrong word. I´d rather say a lot of modern 3D games which just try to be realistic have detailed, but primitive graphics while a lot of 2D games still have an artistic value. I´m not complaining, just mean it´s probably the wrong phrasing.

By the way, I haven´t listened to your podcast yet, but will do it soon.

[kid aphex]

just because the graphics are technologically primitive, doesn't mean they're void of artistic merit or technical genius