What makes a shmup good?

[shadowbringer]

How would you feel about a combo system?

depending on how it's done, it may be more or less fun. For example, in Dodonpachi, how would its system be if the chain counter decreased over time when the chain meter was depleted, instead of instantly ending the chain? (that would be adding a margin for error. Just an example.)
It will also depend on what you're going to chain: medals (Garegga/Batrider)/messages (RFJ)/enemy formations (Varth/Phantasmagoria of Flower View), etc.

How would you feel about combo scoring?

you may want to add other forms of scoring, and have ships/characters that have more potential for certain forms, so that different players could choose them due to their own playstyles.

What about bullet accuracy scores?

I'm afraid that it would require memorization from the player, depending on how much this factor would affect scoring. Perhaps you can add enemies or stage/boss elements that encourage careful shooting (like enemies that spread bullets when destroyed, or bosses that use more difficult attacks depending on the damage on its accessories)

What about a mobile shield in all playable characters that deflects bullets while the player shoots as a temporary defense?

some games have this feature, it could add to the game's strategy, if they're well balanced and such weapon doesn't overshadow the others. (that shield could also be destructible, so that it's not abusable, or have certain projectiles that it can't block)

Would secret unlockables help keep the game fresh or would you rather not look for them?

when I read this, I remember about myself, trying to unlock Imperishable Night's Last Words (these are enemy attack patterns that aren't found during the main game, and to unlock them, you're required to play the main game more, and better. Though you may choose to use a time-based -- Panzer Dragoon Orta had 20 hours? -- or failure-based unlock -- thinking of KoF 2002 Unlimited Match's 300 *consecutive* failures on the Expert challenges -- , in case the player isn't good enough but seems to have tried).
However, in general, I'm not used to look for unlockables, outside of secret characters/attack formations. (in some people's words, sort of, the main attraction should be the main game, not the extras)

Level select... should it be progressively unlocked or locked until the end of the game?

progressively unlocked, for practice. (however, I think about Mushihimesama and ESP Galuda's PS2 versions, which allow you to practice stages without having reached them, ESP Galuda also allowed you to save replays and watch some pre-saved superplays. So, I'm not sure about it.)

Time bonus... getting a bonus added for how quickly you finish the stage... would that be innovative if not, interesting?

Thunder Dragon 2 rewarded you for killing formations quickly, by sending bonus formations and eventually a special fighter that was worth some decent points (more exactly, the item it dropped when defeated), Raiden games reward you for killing enemies quickly (dunno if always before they can shoot at you). Once again, not sure about the answer to your question, but perhaps it could serve as a consolation end-of-stage bonus (since I've heard complaints about some non-shmups having countdown timers, and these people felt pressured simply because of that).

Would maps, tiers or alternate paths help or hurt the game?

alternate paths, why not? (the first instance I've seen, was in R-Type's stage 4)
They can give some players (those who seek to 'explore' the game, instead of trying to play them for score) some options to choose from, depending on their mood or preference. Also, those who play for score will try to do requirements (for example, in Batrider) to get to some additional stages (or even bosses/midbosses), and/or more risky (and more rewarding) routes.

Would it help if a player had hitpoints or should the player have a 1-hit you're dead life bar?

(imho) hitpoints only if you're intending to do something like Dungeons & Dragons: Shadows over Mystara, where you only have 1 life, and being hit by a dragon's firebreath is an instant game-over. That way, attacks can have different damage numbers. Once again, I don't have an answer.

maybe you would want to include a novice-friendly mode, with auto-bomb, and less resilient enemies? (for those who don't care about getting better on the game)

[gs68]

also uh

make sure you incorporate some sort of online coop mode, and make it laggy as hell

that's liek, better than no m00ltiplayer

[ShmupSamurai]

Considering I'm in the midst of dveloping a shmup, this is a topic worth looking into.

What do you like best about shmups in general?

Hard, intense boss-fights(TFIV, DragonBreed, Raiden II), mixtures of popcorn, medium, and heavy enemies(TF series in general, Gate of Thunder, Gradius), decent weapons, a OST that's both melodious and kickin', good pace, and nice environments(Infact I'm a total sucker for the bio-organic theme.. if u were to fill an entire shmup with variations of that, I download it RIGHT THIS SECOND! )

[Jeneki]

Would secret unlockables help keep the game fresh or would you rather not look for them?

The best examples of unlocking that I have seen are in Dreamcast Mars Matrix or Marvel vs. Capcom 2. Each time you play you get some points used to unlock stuff in a shop menu. If you play well you get more points to spend. Thus, a good player will unlock everything quickly, however a bad player will still unlock everything given enough time.

Level select... should it be progressively unlocked or locked until the end of the game?

There's no point allowing players to practice hard parts if it's only available once a player no longer needs it.

Would it help if a player had hitpoints or should the player have a 1-hit you're dead life bar?

When I see a life bar, I think to myself the developer couldn't be bothered to properly design and test the game's difficulty. Instead of balancing the game, they took the easy way out and made unavoidable hits acceptable. Worse still are games with regenerating life bars, encouraging hit-and-run tactics instead of fighting it out.

[TMR]

Level select... should it be progressively unlocked or locked until the end of the game?

There's no point allowing players to practice hard parts if it's only available once a player no longer needs it.

i can think of a few reasons for it; either to learn the level to complete it better or improve scoring when next playing it in context for example.

[Burningvigor]

What are the best features you've seen on a shmup?

Multiple chars/ships that are different enough from each other. Must have a different score board for each char though.


What are the worst features?

When you die going back at check points or starting the level all over again. Also losing all your weapons when you die making it impossible in later levels.


What do you like best about shmups in general?

Good level design and bullet patterns that are intresting/possible to dodge without memorizing the correct path. Basically someone with skills can avoid it the first time he navigates through it.

Also a score system that isnt too complicated, but satisfying. It has to be more than, shoot and enemy and get points. Add multipliers etc.

Having a quirk that makes it stand out from the rest of the crowd is welcomed. Espgaluda has the whole slowdown bullets or speed them up for score. Ikaruga had the change shield color. Gradius has the unique options / upgrade system. Death smiles has the controllable Familiar. Even U.N. Squardron had the life bar that flashes red when you get hit which means you must avoid getting hit for a short time or you die in that mode.


Would elements such as cutscenes, shops, customizable ship appearance, and upgradeable stats improve a shmup or make it less appealing?

Cutscenes have to be skippable. Even short ones that arent can be annoying. Deathsmiles is a great example of this. Its best to have an option in the menu that disables cutscenes altogether.

In general I do not like shops to upgrade weapons and such. But if its shops to buy fun stuff that doesnt effect gameplay than thats fine. Stats are a big no no imo. If its going to be stuff like buying upgrades I rather have it like gradius style.


How long do you generally spend playing an average shmup?

Depends how good the shmup is. Having a intresting scoring system and a game thats not frustrating to try to score in will make it last long. Extra modes that add variety helps. Such as Cave games having Arcade/360 version 1.1 MBL. It offers playing the game with different rules and provides a lot more playing time.

Achievements help a ton also. Having a shop to customize how ships look or buying extra things adds to the replay value.

If anything shmups can last me from 10 to 100 hours. Cave shmups tend to last longer for me because they always have different game modes and a intresting score system.

[BIL]

Playing a bit of Under Defeat reminded me of something, regarding cutscenes... my favourite kind of shooter set-piece is the kind that runs concurrent to the action, like the third boss' introduction. See also Contrite levelling buildings in R-Type Delta's first stage.

Cinematic moments like that flesh out the game's environment (in this case, with stuff crashing into the frame rather than agreeably scrolling up), without removing the player from the picture.

[Battletoad]

What are the best features you've seen on a shmup?

Some features that made the shooter unique like:
Zero Gunner 2 - rotation
Giga Wing - reflect barrier (and Mosquito in Mars Matrix)

Others:
ridiculous humour (Parodius, Gunbird 2)

What are the worst features?
I also hated every checkpoint system that I´ve encountered so far. Just perfectly unbalanced :/
Addiotionally hate it in oldschool shooters, when there are few but extremely fast bullets. I rather have tight situations with slower bullets where you see what´s coming you´re way. Ok yet I love Psikyo, but that´s somehow different and much better than in Tatsujin or Hellfire for example.
I also can´t get used to huge hitboxes anymore, so I call them bad, too.

What do you like best about shmups in general?
- fast-paced, action-packed gameplay
- balance of shooting and dodging, both as a important parts (best seen in Psikyo games)
- small hitbox
- tight situations
- simple scoring system, risk and reward, no complete memorization of the stages needed (best example would be Giga Wing 1)
- powerful sound effects
- good soundtrack (rarely happens)
- selectable characters
- not necessary: storyline that completes the game, but doesn´t take too much room (I always liked how it was made in Giga Wing and Gunbird series)

How long do you generally spend playing an average shmup?
Good question that I don´t have the answer to. At least I can´t say at all, how many ours I spend. On my most played shooters I probably played something between 70 and 100 credits.

[PainAmplifier]

Overall I have to say that I play a Shmup to "Blow stuff up and avoid blowing up myself".

1) You need a balance of "blow up-ing-ness". It doesn't matter so much if it's bosses or popcorn enemies, it just needs a satisfying balance of quantity (popcorn enemies), quality (bosses) and visceral satisfaction in how they blow up/apart. (Animation wise or systematicly breaking them down.)

2)There also needs to be enough of a threat that one is forced to evade incoming fire, while at the same time you are positioning yourself to blow things up.

You want to keep the action fairly constant. But breaks are not bad! As an extreme example I know R-Type Final gets lots of flack for having too many 'dead zones', but many of those are almost necessary if you are flying a weaker ship and aren't able to wtfpwn every 'hard target' instantly with a uber ship and/or need time to charge up your wave cannon. (That said, now that I think about it, other than the ones that just plain 'set the mood', I have to wonder if some of those gaps don't hide some behind the scenes technical solutions to pre-loading or just rendering the game as well.) At the other end of the spectrum, games that have zero 'slack time' can be mentally and physically draining enough that you just don't want to play them. Just imagine if every level was like the TLB in the harder cave games.

In short, there should be an ebb and flow to each level. Not every second of each level needs to be an equally extreme moment of dodging, shooting and positioning.

I'm in a love/hate state of mind with many 'bullet hell' type games. Too often it seems to trade quantity for quality. By that I mean they tend to reduce your evasion to mere sub-pixel positioning once a pattern starts. I want to MOVE dammit. I like the ones that have 'more gaps' to fly through. That doesn't mean the gaps need to be huge. Just give me more chances to weave through a pattern and not just find the one safe spot or two step twitch pattern that is the only way to stay alive outside of bombing nonstop.

And let's not forget the eyecandy/eargasm stuff. Good sounding explosions and death/explosion animations really help create a positive feedback with all the flying and shooting you should be doing. Be careful of going overboard though! Your player still needs to be able to see through all this to avoid bullets and choose targets! There is nothing worse than explosions hiding bullets/enemies or worse *medaling* systems that do the same! I started to dread killing stuff in Shikigami (the first two) at times simply due to all the damn medals that made it hard to see what the hell was going on.


What I don't like are abitrary scoring systems, cheap deaths and required/excessive bombs or bombing.

Bombs can be good, but they should be more last ditch "save me from my mistake", "oh crap" or "First time seeing a pattern" moments. If you need to save all your bombs from early levels just to get through later levels, or are required to build up a huge stock of them via score whoring...somethings out of wack.

Cheap deaths, not just unexpected from behind stuff, but also recovering after death. As a 'bad' example, this is pretty much defined by the Gradius series. You may as well set lives and continues to 0 and restart anew after any and every death on those games. recovering after just about every death takes such a superhuman amount of effort that it feels like the game is actually punishing you for having more than one life. (Even Gradius V, still suffers from this to an extent.)

And scoring...I hate score for the point of score. I like it when score is an indication of how well I am improving, not on how well I am exploiting some silly score mechanic. Score made more sense in the really old games such a Galaga/Galaxian where there was no real 'end' to the levels. The absolutely ludicrous values for score these days where totals run into the billions are just plain silly I think.

With that said, a score system isn't all bad. It shouldn't be so crazy that one mistake ruins a run, but it should reward playing better versus playing 'safe'. At the extreme risk/reward side, I find bullet grazing mechanics (Shiki) to be distracting, as it focuses the game too heavily on the scoring mechanic and less on the actual flying&shooting gameplay. (Although quite honestly, this does seem to be the entire *point* of the Shikigami games...and changing/removing it would probably render the games redundant.)

Score also makes more sense in indicating how good you are at overcoming difficulty. For example, flying an uber ship should only net you base points but if you choose to fly a gimp ship you should get a point bonus/multiplyer for the added difficulty. Killing harder targets gives more than tons of easy ones. (In games where you just can't kill everything.) I also dislike any 'milking' of things for points. Milking just seems more like a cheap 'cheat' and less about good game playing.

Score and scoring sytems however, are a bit of a personal preference with one caveat. That is, a person can ignore a scoring sytem and still enjoy a (good) game, but for those who *do* play for score you want to avoid creating a game where there is only one setup/path or perfect pattern to fly to get a 'top score'. Some point randomness and alternate scoring methods (if possible) would go a long way to help in those situations.

Everything else, from flying spaceships to cute girls on broomsticks is pretty much just gravy/eye candy as far as I am concerened. I can pretty much play them all, and in fact I like the variety it adds. If every game used the same settings and mechanics the genre would get old, fast.

[toaplan_shmupfan]

Shop upgrades aren't a bad thing. Capcom made good with shops.

U.N. Squadron, Carrier Airwing, Forgotten Worlds immediately come to mind. Those shops also doubled as a short break in between stages, even if one bought nothing and just selected Exit.

[evil_ash_xero]

First of all, do not listen to this man^

He has a reference to Einhänder in his nick. No one with a sane taste and understanding in shmups would give a fuck what a person like this thinks about shmups.
Einhänder is a perfect example of how to not do a shmup. I fell a sleep while alone thinking of this game. Even Gradius V is more interesting...

Einhander is a pretty sweet game.


Anyway, it matters what kind of shmup it is. If it's Danmaku, the bullet patterns gotta be great. If it's a "normal" shmup, then the enemy placement, and the situations the game puts you in. In "normal" shmups, I think more stage interaction is very important(ikaruga).

After that basic foundation is laid out, you got to have presentation. Designs, music, and how the game builds are all essential to me for a shmup to be "great". I prefer games that make me feel like it's building to something. Either with little cutscenes and long last stages with epic bosses(such as Deathsmiles or Radiant Silvergun)...and well, it's hard to explain, but say a game like Garegga, it really feels like you're getting to the end, and you're taking on the big ship trying to escape(also Soukyugurentai), which makes you really get into it. I really dislike it when I can't tell that the last stage is the last stage, and it has some weak boss that just kind of makes it feel unsatisfying. I think the stage before the last stage should also begin this build. Mainly this would be done with graphic design.

I always appreciate a "twist" of some kind to the gameplay. Either with the power ups, or the way you attack. Or something different all together like Galuda or Ikaruga. We've seen so many shmups, it wouldn't be a bad idea to add a little something to make them stand out more from each other. Dragon Blaze is a good example of a small twist(using the dragon to ram, and being able to control their special attack while flying around on your own) that adds a lot to the usual Psikyo gameplay.

Also, Bosses are pretty important. They should not only be awesome looking, but should be really fun to fight(even if they're challenging). You should always wonder what the next boss is gonna look like, and then be like "cool!" when you see it. The way to do it: Radiant Silvergun, Guwange. Not so much the way to do it: DDP DOJ(they got the actual fighting part down, but the bosses are underwhelming to look at, barring the last one).

Stage diversity is good also. And not just in terms of one stage looking totally different from another(which is good), but actually having cool stuff to look at in the background. I hate it when you can actually take a snapshot of a stage, and not be able to tell if it's the beginning, middle, or end.

And don't forget the music!

AND NO MORE FREAKING LOLIS! I have enough problem with cute, but the lolis just add a seedy element to 'em, which I just don't care for. I'm sure some will disagree, but I don't care.

Hope that's helpful.

[Rob]

This thread was answered perfectly in a few lines on page 1, then appeared five thousand lines of crazy particulars. What does every good shooter have in common? Well, (ridiculously, unreadably long list of unnecessary things).

THE has poor taste and is confused.

[apple arcade]

Worst features?

when you die you lose all your power ups. What's worse is that your starting shot is so weak you can shoot an enemy from the time they appear on screen until the time they leave and they still don't die.

[toaplan_shmupfan]

I still like old school style shmups for the most part, so I'd prefer that any newer ones had similar features to the old school shmups, but with improvements made where flaws occurred with the older design.

* Checkpoint system is okay with me and even taking away firepower is acceptable. When speed powerups are lost, however, that makes the game extremely unbalanced--although getting past a point with no firepower and slowest speed is still technically doable. Instant respawn is nice, but tends to allow the eventual credit feeding all the way to the end whereas checkpoints force actually learning the game.

* Based on that previous point. Ship speed should either be fixed or adjustable. Fast moving ships are great fun, but whether using a checkpoint system or instant respawn don't use speed powerups, please, because often times collecting all the speed powerups also means the ship is too fast.

* Story line, put it in the game manual please for a console or PC game. Or save it for the intro and ending of a game only, thanks.

* Cutscenes, I have very low tolerance for them. If the story can't be put in the game manual, then put the story in the intro after the title screen (example Telenet's Gaiares) or at the very start of the game (example Technosoft's Elemental Master) and make absolutely sure they are skippable. Don't ever put storyline in the middle of the game--even Robo Aleste did that although that was skippable. G-Darius also had those pre-boss cutscenes, of course, but those were actually interesting enough to watch even though they were still skippable, and they were still very short. Any totally unskippable cutscene should be no longer than the in-between stage introductions seen in Wolfteam's Sol Deace.

* Pulsed rapid fire would also be nice for an arcade release. A good balance between having to rapidly hammer on the button vs. just holding down the button. (Games such as U.N. Squadron, Carrier Airwing, Aero Fighters, Strikers 1945, Varth had this type of firing feature. Console releases should have a continous autofire option.

* No death traps, please. Closing walls and moving terrain and such are quite acceptable but there always be should be a way to eventually shoot out of a trap if completely blocked by a wall or other terrain object, rather than it being a forced loss of ship because it is totally impassable when closed.

* No bullet hell. The concept is interesting, but I prefer dodging traditional shot patterns and larger hit boxes, rather than grazing bullets that actually overlap the ship graphic but not the smaller hitbox. Do any bullet hell the old way--lots of enemies each firing shots, rather than a single enemy firing a spray of seemingly undodgable shots. Also, Truxton's second boss is a good example of how bullet hell can be accomplished just using a fast spread fire pattern while individual pop-open guns are also firing.

* Quit it with the loli shmups. I simply will not play them, ever. Even if it's a present or future developer that also makes non-loli shumps, their loli-containing shmups will still be ignored and never will be played by me.

* I'm neutral with respect to the whole medal/medallion/gold bar collection aspect in games. They are there for score/perfection play purposes but neither add nor subtract from the rest of the gameplay.

* I'm also neutral with respect to extra bonus points or multipliers for enemy quick shots/quick kills. That's yet another score/perfection play concept but the enemy can still always be destroyed for no extra bonus points/1x enemy points.

[AraraSPAMWitch]

* Quit it with the loli shmups. I simply will not play them, ever. Even if it's a present or future developer that also makes non-loli shumps, their loli-containing shmups will still be ignored and never will be played by me.

Yeah, because a game ain't a success if toaplan shmupfan didn't play it. Really, the loli route for the time being is easily the safest way to get your game noticed--most shooter fans will be desperate enough to play it and most otaku will be desperate enough to buy the LE and fap all over the box. The loss of sales from the 2% of the game-buying population with a finely honed moral sense is nothing.

[evil_ash_xero]

I notice the only people that really seem to take up for lolis in games tend to have lolis for their avatars.

Just an observation.

[TMR]

The loss of sales from the 2% of the game-buying population with a finely honed moral sense is nothing.

The thing is... as far as the lolis go i still can't see what i'm missing that makes them so abhorrent - i'm assuming that not every loli-based game has back story details like the Gunbird series for example and my inability to read them (or indeed game instructions in general, i tend to just wade in and only read the manual if the controls aren't intuitive) means i don't see those details anyway

Are people just objecting to the presence in general of lolis or is there a metric f**kload of back story i've been ignoring?

[EinhanderZwei]

First of all, do not listen to this man^

Alright, will never ever do

[AraraSPAMWitch]

Are people just objecting to the presence in general of lolis or is there a metric f**kload of back story i've been ignoring?

It's pretty simple. People object to the loli thing for two reasons, one of them retarded, the other one not. The first is merely a matter of personal preference, the perception being that all the hype new games are too cutesy and the scifi and military themes of old have been largely ignored. The second is that some people are so perverted that they cannot help but have sexual thoughts every time they look at a little girl or a representation of one, yet they have been morally conditioned to abhor these thoughts. Thus, when they see little girls in games they immediately feel shame, and in order to mitigate these feelings of shame they loudly condemn the very thing that attracts them the most.

[TMR]

Are people just objecting to the presence in general of lolis or is there a metric f**kload of back story i've been ignoring?

It's pretty simple. People object to the loli thing for two reasons, one of them retarded, the other one not. The first is merely a matter of personal preference, the perception being that all the hype new games are too cutesy and the scifi and military themes of old have been largely ignored.

Well, that one i can understand although refusing to play an otherwise good game because it has a theme you don't personally like seems somewhat bizarre to me; with the market being as niche as it is right now, surely taking sales away from whatever is being produced just on those grounds is doing far more harm than good...?

The second is that some people are so perverted that they cannot help but have sexual thoughts every time they look at a little girl or a representation of one, yet they have been morally conditioned to abhor these thoughts. Thus, when they see little girls in games they immediately feel shame, and in order to mitigate these feelings of shame they loudly condemn the very thing that attracts them the most.

i look at them and think "little girl with weaponry - cool, i can shoot things!" and just get on with blowing stuff up; it's no different to watching kids television (what can i say, i got hooked on Power Rangers for a while and Billy and Mandy always gets a laugh) and it doesn't even register at a sexual level. Perhaps this warrants a dedicated thread because i'm intrigued now...

[Otai]

What are the best features you've seen on a shmup?

Various types of enemies showcased with multitude of attacking patterns, good art style, good character/ship designs and various difficulty choices.

What are the worst features?

Have to start again from checkpoints/beginning of stage with losing powerups when dying or continue.

What do you like best about shmups in general?

Just blast stuffs up and I can play as I wish.

Would elements such as cutscenes, shops, customizable ship appearance, and upgradeable stats improve a shmup or make it less appealing?

They are welcomed just as fine, in fact they add customization and storyline features to a shmup. But of course if the cutscences are unskipable I will be very annoyed. That just made me questioned why they ruin shmups.

How long do you generally spend playing an average shmup?

From 15 mins to 3 hours, depends on how free I am.

How would you feel about a combo system?

Either this exists or not is not my concern, but if they contribute to weapon system I like that.

How would you feel about combo scoring?

I don't care about this because I don't play for score.

What about bullet accuracy scores?

This is not a good feature (unless the game discourage bullet spamming) but I don't care anyway, yet kill percentage will be a good thing.

What about a mobile shield in all playable characters that deflects bullets while the player shoots as a temporary defense?

Deflect is okay, but absorb would be just as good.

Would secret unlockables help keep the game fresh or would you rather not look for them?

Definitely, but whether I will look for them for a long time is another matter, given that I'll try a new shmup once it's come out the unlockables are just simply left out.

Level select... should it be progressively unlocked or locked until the end of the game?

Progressively unlocked because I want to practice that stage in case I screwed up.

Time bonus... getting a bonus added for how quickly you finish the stage... would that be innovative if not, interesting?

It is interesting, but it should be tweaked so that no one abuse bombing. It also encourages players to attack rather than simply dodge.

Would maps, tiers or alternate paths help or hurt the game?

No, especially if it is Darius or some sort of RPG shmup. Too bad not much games do this.

Would it help if a player had hitpoints or should the player have a 1-hit you're dead life bar?

A hitpoint is a must, especially bullet hell, but usual ones should have none. A life bar is pointless if it is 1-hit you're dead. I'd rather have symbols of lives instead or a life bar that really act as one. I know a lot of people hate lifebars, but to me that makes things more manageable. At least I can go on playing by taking some damage and attempt for doing better while I'm continuing a stage.

Speaking of lolis, I don't care who the fighters are as long as I can blast stuffs up. I also don't care if it is normal/bullet hell, scrolling/arena, ships/characters and plotless/full of skipable cutscenes. Looking from this I'm quite liberal with shmup designs. I'm casual player who plays hardcore games, after all.

[spl]

I really don't get what people don't like about lolis... I only recently discovered they were supposed to be young girls, I just thought they were small asians??

I mean I grew up on old shmups on the Amiga like Gemini Wing and then played alot of the games like Raiden, Gradius, R-Type, etc and I really can't see the problem with lolis as they are distinctively the jap art style.

The whole idea of "I won't play a game because it has lolis" is ridiculous to me. The drastic changes in scenery and characters are what makes a new shmup exciting and appealing. This is why I like how Cave have got a different theme and art style in basically every game they make. I mean my favourite Cave game is Dodonpachi but how many chain combo robot army style games can you make before it gets old???

If you want to go back in time, look at Toaplan. They made army/heli themed games and then they made space themed ones like Tatsujin. It would get boring if every single game they make is the same style theme.

I mean why is space theme ok but gothic loli is not?? Ridiculous disco themes ?? I don't see anyone complaining about that? I guess if you actually see something sexual or wrong with the loli theme then the problem is in your own head. I'm sure most people who play them just see it as a cute art style and nothing more. I've certainly never thought of lolis as sexual.. I mean they are all flat chested ffs!

[Neko]

I find now that most shmups coming from Japan (especially doujins) tend to have guys or girls (girls especially) as playable characters. This compared to the helicopters, spaceships and jet fighters we usually see from shmups in the 90's.

I suppose the target demographic has changed a lot from one generation to the next, so companies make games that will pull them in. And bullet-hell is quite prevalent in doujin shmups too (not that I'm too fond of them, I'm still practicing).

One thing I feel that makes a good shmup is that the learning curve should be well-balanced as the level progresses. Make it easy for first-timers to get accustomed to the game in the first level.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Out of all the types of shield / hitpoint mechanics i prefer the auto bomb mechanic as it allows me to stay alive on a hard level im practicing for longer, then i should be able to turn it off and play normally when im competent with the game and want to concentrate on scoreing (ala BWR which gives extra score for not using auto bomb). Plus it also makes ppl hoarde their bombs and therefore not panic bombing as much which is always a good thing in my book.

I also like to see shmups which dont use std bomb mechanics. Genetos is a good game for this since it give u a extra bomb every minut, teamed with the comb system it ecourages bombing to be used agessively and not just defensivly like in std shooters. Crimson clover and Refrain are 2 shooters that i like that dont even use the bombs but use a substitute that isnt that much different from std bombs so it allows for similar gameplay but in a new and intresting way.

[Pulsewidth]

The biggest thing nobody's mentioned yet is control latency. Eg. Battle Garegga is almost unplayable on MAME because the controls are so laggy. I don't know about the PCB and I've heard the Saturn port is better, but on MAME there's a 3 frame delay before your ship responds. Variable frame rate is another big problem. The game should run at a fixed frame rate (I strongly recommend 120fps because it's an emerging standard, and it can run on common 60Hz displays by skipping every other frame), controls should respond immediately, and there should be no triple buffering.

Here's a good article about latency in games:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digit ... cle?page=2

Other than that, I think pacing is the most common problem. Touhou games really suffer from this - they have some difficult patterns but there's always a long break between them so you don't feel pressured. Cave games vary the intensity too (a good thing if done correctly), but never reduce it all the way to zero.

[EinhanderZwei]

Battle Garegga is almost unplayable on MAME because the controls are so laggy. I don't know about the PCB and I've heard the Saturn port is better, but on MAME there's a 3 frame delay before your ship responds.

Strange. The controls are okay in MAME on my beyond-outdated machine

[Pulsewidth]

Strange. The controls are okay in MAME on my beyond-outdated machine

It's nothing to do with the speed of your machine, it's poor programming either in MAME or the original PCB.

Here's a previous thread about latency:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 94&start=0

[captpain]

Eg. Battle Garegga is almost unplayable on MAME because the controls are so laggy.

And yet there are lots of letter scores on this board, hmm!

[nimitz]

Instead of making a huge post about my personal feelings, I will simply ask people to reread the first answer, by Bill, it sums it up very nicely.

If I had to describe what makes a good shmup in only one word : Pace

that's also the main difference between shmups and most other types of game, the Pace is completely dictated by the developer, in a shmup you are always either speedrunning (intense games) or trying to stay awake.

Also, this caught my eye:

"What do you like best about shmups in general?"
Good level design and bullet patterns that are intresting/possible to dodge without memorizing the correct path. Basically someone with skills can avoid it the first time he navigates through it.

This makes for very boring games for good players. Take DDP (or Cave) bosses for example, they require some skill to defeat without bombing and no one can do it without having played them quite a few times and knowing what kind of patterns will be thrown at them. That's what makes patterns good and interesting, you first need to "figure em out" then you try some strategies, then once you know how to do it, it still takes some skill to execute it.

[Udderdude]

Take DDP (or Cave) bosses for example, they require some skill to defeat without bombing and no one can do it without having played them quite a few times and knowing what kind of patterns will be thrown at them.

I've sight read more than a few Cave boss patterns. They're still tough every time you have to beat them, though.