I'm still pretty new to the genre, but..

[Dragoforce]

97% of the genre is scoring???

How dare you question my scientific calculation!

Play the games the way you want to. Who gives a shit what some geek on some forum on the net says or thinks. Who cares how the game developers "wanted" people to play (as though people know what their original intent was). If your only playing for score, you might as well just get a calculator and start multiplying and adding numbers randomly, because that is all your doing basically. Instead of mashing buttons on a keypad its enemy spaceships on a game screen. But if big numbers is your thing then do it, go buck-wild on that shit, and have fun. You are playing a video game for fun, no one can tell you how do have fun but you.

So just enjoy the games you have in the any way you want. There is no wrong or right way.

comments like this do nothing but illustrate how uninformed you are....learn a bit about the games you are playing and then come back and talk

I tried to be civil about this, but I agree with Jonny on this one. Wtf dude

[BrightSuzaku]

I primarily play for survival. Sure, I enjoy scoring a lot, but dodging bullets and surviving is what I enjoy doing most. Once I get (pretty) good, I start shooting for score (which is what I've been trying to do in Mushifutari).

However, what I find fun in shmups is the challenge, and using what I've learned form past mistakes to achieve greater goals. I almost never continue or credit feed, and when I have it was simply because I wanted to just relax and blow crud up one day (guilty of this in Raiden IV).

Because I don't continue, I tend learn from my mistakes: "This is why you died, hopefully you'll remember this next time you go through this stage." This is primarily because I enjoy the feeling of going through a stage and beating the boss (at watching the big explosions!) without resorting to continues. It makes me feel like I actually achieved something, like I'm getting better.

And I like the feeling. But, it's whatever floats your boat in games.
I don't play for score often, but I love unique scoring systems. For now, I've gotten used to scoring in Mushifutari on Normal play, since I'm too confused by Manic. The thing is, if you enjoy survival play, try Warning Forever (PC). That game is made up of a single boss that changes based on your strategy, forcing you to literally play for survival.

I love Ikaruga, but I dislike chaining in Ikaruga. It's really hard! But I really should get back to practicing that game, since I haven't actually destroyed the second boss yet. Aharharhar... *sigh*

Scoring is fun, but since I'm often on the low-end of the scoreboards, it isn't my highest priority. I just like to have fun, and improve, and maybe do better than my current high score. In fact, I'm more obsessed with my personal high score than anyone else's for that matter, which is what I try to beat WHEN I play for score.

...I kind of waver between playing for score, survival, dodging bullets, and blowing off steam. Because dodging bullets properly makes me feel awesome.

[NR777]

Bottom line: have fun. Granted, you are missing out on most of what gives these games their depth and longevity ( and, in a way, cheating yourself ), but if simply popping in a few credits and fucking around is your thing...

[t0yrobo]

If your only playing for score, you might as well just get a calculator and start multiplying and adding numbers randomly, because that is all your doing basically. Instead of mashing buttons on a keypad its enemy spaceships on a game screen. But if big numbers is your thing then do it, go buck-wild on that shit, and have fun.

Unless you're playing a crap game the scoring will be well integrated, and is a big part of how levels are laid out. And it's not like you're forced to put a large amount of effort into it even.
Personally I found that at least paying attention to scoring was a very natural progression in playing. Sure you can credit feed and enjoy yourself, I've done it plenty of times. But it gets boring fast, and there's console ports that don't have infinite continues, or they make you play longer to earn them. So to see more of the game you have to get better and at least survive. Then at some point it dawns on you that if you score decently then you can get more lives, which makes it easier to survive. Before you know it you're surviving longer into the game, scoring better, and getting much more gratification out of it.
It's not meant to be an elitist attitude, it really is the nature of the games. You'd look damn silly if you went to the arcade with $30 worth of quarters just to play through a game because that's simply not how it's supposed to work. You play more, persevere, and eventually you kill the bitch at end of the last level and feel like a fucking badass.

[Udderdude]

If your only playing for score, you might as well just get a calculator and start multiplying and adding numbers randomly, because that is all your doing basically. Instead of mashing buttons on a keypad its enemy spaceships on a game screen. But if big numbers is your thing then do it, go buck-wild on that shit, and have fun.

Ok, let's see you "mash some buttons" and get a WR score in DOJ. Oops, you can't because you're talking bullshit out of your ass.

[Crass]

Hey I didn't say I did not like scoring myself. I do. I was merely trying to play the devil's advocate on behalf of the people who can enjoy a game for the other aspects. I totally understand the urge and the feeling of achieving high scores, improving your strategy, etc. etc. But at the end of the day its all just a video game, and its just a number on a screen that has no tangible effect on the world other than the feeling it gives you. As I said in my previous post, enjoy the games the way you want. I'm not trying to start an argument, because this is such a stupid thing to bitch and moan about. Just enjoy your damn games, and don't fret over what others think. I think that is a positive way to live you life in most scenarios, not just video games.

[Udderdude]

Hey I didn't say I did not like scoring myself. I do. I was merely trying to play the devil's advocate on behalf of the people who can enjoy a game for the other aspects.

GO GO GO

[ZOM]

Not this shit again

[BrightSuzaku]

Ok, I'll speak up here again: I used to creditfeed R-Type Final like there was no tomorrow, back when I was very new to shmups. That didn't help me much at all, although the desire to creditfeed is stronger in that game than any of my other shmups.

I think the desire to creditfeed naturally comes from a desire to see more of the game, even if you aren't actually skilled enough to fully appreciate and clear said level. And sometimes, the desire is strong, and I totally understand. I'm still a victim of this every now and then! Guys, the need to start weaning off creditfeeding is the first step to understanding the intricacies of the genre- that's what's going on, I think. It's less "score this and that" at the original poster's level, and I get it, because I've been there, too.

Resisting the urge to creditfeed (or simply creditfeeding less frequently) is what "opened up" shmups for me, and snowballed into a full-on shmup obsession. As soon as I stopped credit feeding, and learned what I needed to do to clear a level, eventually I didn't need to say I wanted to continue if I wanted more explosions. I didn't need to continue if I wanted to beat that boss.

There's some greater satisfaction to be gained in clearing a level without creditfeeding or continuing, and a sense of "flow" felt as you play through the game. It feels good. At this point, you're not quite there yet, and that's ok.

[shadowbringer]

I think I'm already hopelessly addicted. I love Blazing Lasers, Gate of Thunder, M.U.S.H.A., Ikaruga, Space Megaforce...
The funny thing is while I suck at these games and don't see myself finishing them soon, I still love just persevering through them. I'm not even one of those "hardcore" gamers who thinks the more difficult a game is, the better, I just like watching stuff blow up in the most ridiculously exaggerated ways possible. I've seen some people on other forums say if you don't 1cc everything then you're not doing it right, but I think that's kind of an elitist way of thinking. It's like if you're enjoying yourself, then who cares, honestly? This is Whit gaming is all about, high scores be damned.

some people find fun in exploring the game, in what they like to call in a "tourist" manner, without expectations or focus in finishing the game or reaching good scores. Others find out that the skill exercise involved in finishing the game and/or reaching good scores is more rewarding, more fun. Both player types will eventually grow bored of the game's facade, and that's why competitive games maintain their playerbase for long times. In short, in a similar manner to what Dragoforce mentioned, the first type will be missing most of the fun potential that the genre has to offer.

Also,

high scores be damned

please refrain from offending the people who like to play for score. It's no surprise that a lot of the people here are reacting in the same manner.

A better comparison would be to look at RPGs. You don't have to level up all the way, but it's there. You don't ever to do every side quest and play 500 hours when you can get through in 10. These are options, choices you make based on how you want to play the game. Playing a shmup for survival is as much fun when you're not an expert bullet-dodger. Just because it's how you enjoy playing the game, doesn't mean everyone else has to play that way. The mindset is just arrogant and as the poster commented, quite elitist.

RPGs in general are meant to allow the player to see the ending(s) without much effort or skill (outside of time spent). Shmups are more focused in player performance. RPGs are normally are more focused in storytelling, so there's not much room for trying to perform better on them. In RPGs, the player will eventually see the ending that he/she'd like to see the most at the time. In shmups, the player may credit-feed his/her way, without realizing that the game allows the player to finish it without continuing. (and therefore may not experience a sense of challenge, accomplishment, and self-improvement. Those who score well and/or 1cc in these games, provided that their scoring system are well-made enough, are also able to play the games "just for fun", but they prefer the former way, because they know, from experience, that doing so is even more fun.)

[chempop]

Why play a shmup? It depends on the game just as much as it depends on the player. People who are new to the genre are naturally going to focus on survival before their skills develop enough to worry much about score mechanics. This doesn't mean that you can't track your progress by limiting credits and saving your high-scores though, in fact I encourage it. When I play games that don't really have much of a scoring mechanic beyond destruction bonus I can just ease back and play for survival without caring too much about score. These are the kinds of shmups you will likely get more fun out of. However, it is true that certain games are indeed all about scoring and without playing them properly you are really missing the point.

A friend of mine who dabbles with the genre was trying Mushihimesama Futari and I was trying to tell him about score mechanics but he wasn't really listening and told me he just wanted to play for survival. I let him know that he was doing a good job of dodging the purple, but he wasn't collecting any of the gold. He thought about it and started asking me what he could do to improve and I gave him advice. Next thing I knew he was sucking in gold after every kill, and switching his shots regularly for maximum bonuses.

It's true, in _some games_ score makes a huge difference in how you play and can greatly enhance the experience. Remember though, playing these games by credit feeding to "just blow shit up" will get stale fast, especially compared to the dedicated people who play for score and 1CC.

And for the record, there is nothing wrong with throwing golf balls at chess pieces

[third_strike]

Happiness for ones sadness for others: http://shmups.system11.org/viewforum.php?f=2
Cool!

[BrightSuzaku]

I introduced a friend to Mushihimesama. While I didn't go into detail about the scoring system, they immediately collected gold, and did pretty darn well! I try not to explain the scoring system too much, as I'm fully aware that many people, especially those new to a specific game, may not do as well when trying to jump in and play solely for score.

Heck, I didn't even do well my first time! Survival is always the first way people tend to play, and it's what I still primarily focus on. But, like I said earlier, weaning off continues is key to making your survival much better. Then, you're not creditfeeding like crazy, you're actually... *gasp!* surviving!

Yes! I said it! Three posts in, and I finally said it! That's the nature of true survival! Once you get the bravery to start continuing less, the real feelings of accomplishment set in: "Oh my god! YES! I've beaten boss three without continuing! Wahahahaha! Now, what's stage 4 going to be like?"

[sjewkestheloon]

My initial dalliances with shmups were on a more casual basis. A few credits here and there just for the pyrotechnics.

After spending a while with a game I immediately started to get further in and hit a wall. Then I started working on making the first few stages a bit more interesting to see what I could do, ie I started scoring.

To me, a good scoring system makes a game last a hell of a lot longer than a 1cc, and a 1cc makes the game last a hell of a lot longer than casually messing about. I'm not offering judgements on you with this. You were the one to offer judgements on people with your opening thread.

Maybe consider again before opening topic on a specialist forum about a niche topic accusing the people there of being 'geeks' etc.

[RHE]

I don' get how some poeple here belive playing a shmup not an score means to credit feed. Both a completly different things, because they're are survival adventure shmups like R-Type, the goal is to beat the game, which is a strong challenge for itself. You can't beat the game by pushing buttons randomly, just as you can't get the highst score with DDP by pushing buttons randomly. And btw credit feeding on R-Type doesn't lower the fun, because it's part of the game design.

However, I can see how credit feeding ruins a pure scoring shmup expierence, and I also see how scoring can expand a shmup expierence but the solid mass still remains on the survival part. Other then that pure scoring shmups should get rid off the whole survining thing by making the player's ship inivsible for bullets. Then people can concentrate to 100% on scoring.

Shmups ar mainly (or even manly) about CHALLENGE and you can challenge a shmup im multiply ways. Some need the scoring hook, some need the 1CC hook, some need the strategical hook, some need the adventure hook and some even the 1Life hook. There are many ways to play a shmup, but for me personally It always has to be a challenge.

[BrightSuzaku]

I've always wondered how far someone could possibly get in Gradius with a "naked" unpowered-up ship? Wait, not far at all, you'll still need those speedups. Damn!

The best way to wean off of creditfeeding is to play Gradius, and revel in the futility of it all. Believe me, that made me stop. Fast. Faster than R-Type Final ever could.

And if you're NOT creditfeeding, well, good for you! That's how I play! Survival without the creditfeeding means you're decent enough (Or maybe I'm just bad!). Ahhh, I give up. This thread is a mess.

[t0yrobo]

Hey I didn't say I did not like scoring myself. I do. I was merely trying to play the devil's advocate on behalf of the people who can enjoy a game for the other aspects.

Good work sir, your post count caused me to make assumptions . I can see how people might not have much interest in 1cc's or score or any of that, it all can be rather intimidating and when it's so easy to press the continue button it can be hard not to. For the op, keep with it and don't feel like you're not welcome to play this type of game or something. Just keep playing something you like and I bet after awhile you'll feel silly for making this post.

[captpain]

However, I can see how credit feeding ruins a pure scoring shmup expierence, and I also see how scoring can expand a shmup expierence but the solid mass still remains on the survival part. Other then that pure scoring shmups should get rid off the whole survining thing by making the player's ship inivsible for bullets. Then people can concentrate to 100% on scoring..

...really? One of the biggest factors in scoring is risk versus reward.

[njiska]

RPGs in general are meant to allow the player to see the ending(s) without much effort or skill (outside of time spent). Shmups are more focused in player performance. RPGs are normally are more focused in storytelling, so there's not much room for trying to perform better on them. In RPGs, the player will eventually see the ending that he/she'd like to see the most at the time. In shmups, the player may credit-feed his/her way, without realizing that the game allows the player to finish it without continuing. (and therefore may not experience a sense of challenge, accomplishment, and self-improvement. Those who score well and/or 1cc in these games, provided that their scoring system are well-made enough, are also able to play the games "just for fun", but they prefer the former way, because they know, from experience, that doing so is even more fun.)

That was very well said, but I think everyone here is still missing the big picture. Fun is a very subjective concept and just because you find it fun to play for score, does not mean that every player will feel the same way.

Does a good scoring system add more depth to gameplay? Does playing for score extend the time you can spend with a game? Absolutely, will you enjoy the extra time? Maybe.

I'll go back to Ikaruga as an example. I love the game. I love the mechanics. I absolutely will not play it for score. Why? because it has a chaining system that forces me to play the game exactly as Treasure preordained and I just don't find that fun. If I played the game for score I would actually be having less fun than if I just playing for survival. Does this make me wrong? Am I broken? Am I not really a shmups fan? No, it just means I have different tastes.

This is the point I've been trying to make. Everyone finds fun in different ways. Making claims that not playing for score is cheating you out of fun or "they prefer the former way, because they know, from experience, that doing so is even more fun", ignores this fundamental fact. That's why a lot of posters in this thread, who I whole-heartedly believe are not trying to be jack asses, are coming off as being arrogant and closed minded. I can see your side of the arguement. I get that most of the forum's population find playing for score to be fun. And that's awesome, but why can't they see the people on the other side of the debate just don't? We all derive pleasure from different things.

[RHE]

However, I can see how credit feeding ruins a pure scoring shmup expierence, and I also see how scoring can expand a shmup expierence but the solid mass still remains on the survival part. Other then that pure scoring shmups should get rid off the whole survining thing by making the player's ship inivsible for bullets. Then people can concentrate to 100% on scoring.

...really? One of the biggest factors in scoring is risk versus reward.

This is exactly what I'm trying to say. It's almost impossible to seperate scoring from survival entirly, because scoring involves factors like risk/reward which are part of the survival system as well. It's like no survival, no risk, no fun. I mean technically a scoring system can work perfectly w/o survival, but it's not as near to be fun.

Does a good scoring system add more depth to gameplay? Does playing for score extend the time you can spend with a game? Absolutely, will you enjoy the extra time? Maybe.

That's how I see it as well, I'm fine with scoring in general but with most shmups I simply don't enjoy the extra time. I don't need an additional layer of-depth that means more work but less fun (and our course this just about taste). Star Soldier R for me is the only shmup I mind playing on score, because it has most of the stuff I want from a scoring game: Short survival play time, instant re-start and no ability to credit feed, and of course a in-depth and FUN scoring system.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Last time i was in 1 of these types of threads advocating on the side of 1cc / scoring it was the HCG101 thread and i came across as elitist which wasnt my intention, so applogies in advance if i seem so in this tread.

While a person can play a shmup anyway they like, not playing for 1cc / scoring is missing out a large part of what makes shmups so fun. You see there are 2 types of video games, the type that everybody and his dog plays nowadays, the interative movie like story tellers that most ppl can play half assed like and still have no trouble beating for example many FPS, RPG games fit in this catergory. Then theres the arcade type games which can be hard to play and will need the gamer to work hard if he wants to beat it, Shmups are very much the latter type of game.

Sure you can play a shmup casually same as you can play a FPS or RPG in a hardcore way. But the challenge of having to work hard at a game that most ppl cant suvive longer then a minute and getting good enough that you beat it is very satisfying. Every gamer knows what sense of acumplishment felt from beating a game. Shmups been very hard to beat takes it to a whole new level. To beat a shmup you will have to 1cc it, and in many great shooters scoring goes hand in hand with 1cc due to extra lives gained by passing a certain score. But if you dont wanna 1cc you could just play for score and try to beat other ppl in the leader boards. The main thing is to try your hardest when playing a shmup, percivier and stick with it eventually eather beating the game by 1cc or beating other ppl in the leaderboards.

Folk in this forum arnt been elitist we just want other ppl to understand and play shmups how they are ment to be played and have as much fun as we do.

[Klatrymadon]

I can see your side of the arguement. I get that most of the forum's population find playing for score to be fun. And that's awesome, but why can't they see the people on the other side of the debate just don't?

Don't worry, chap; personally, I can see that quite plainly, but I got the feeling that Rocky hadn't given playing shooters this way a go yet, which was the only reason I chipped in. I share your feelings on the negative attitudes of large sections of the shmup community in a general sense, and have no intention of perpetuating their insularity, their smugitude or their petty, adolescent willy-waving. I only want people to better understand shooters so that they'll keep playing them.

[rockyraccoon5]

I actually don't credit feed, for what it's worth. Most of the times, when I die in these games, I decide to restart right from the beginning, because I've come to find if you restart without your power-ups in even like level 2 or 3, you're kind of fucked, unless you're pretty good with the level... which I'm not. Who is to say I won't be eventually? I don't know yet, but I'm certainly not going to memorize the entire route from point-start to point-win from the very first time I play the game. I guess that you could say yes, I do play for score in one sense, in that I like to not lose my power-ups so I don't get fucked, so I could shoot down more of the ships, so I don't die.

I think in my first few posts I should've made this more clear (though no doubt some of you will still find fault with this method of play), that it should be survival first, score second. What I mean by this is you should play only to win on your first run-through, up until seeing the final boss. Then when you've beaten the game once, this is when you start trying to improve your game. See? Two "entirely" different methods of play going hand in hand. Magical. I think it's unreasonable for anyone to suggest playing the score-way first and foremost. When you are finished with the game and familiar with it, sure? But if you do it from the onset, it's nothing but a fucking chore.

[Lynx Winters]

Play how you want. Shmups aren't generally a multiplayer thing so if you creditfeed you're not ruining anyone else's fun. That said, this forum is generally dedicated to scoring well and 1ccing games so sayingyou "play" a shooter doesn't mean you turn on the game and press buttons. If that's what you want to do, that's cool but I wouldn't say anything lest you incur the spite of many nerds who think you're having fun the wrong way.

[njiska]

I only want people to better understand shooters so that they'll keep playing them.

Now there's an area where we can all agree.

[Dragoforce]

First of all, I'm not a hardcore elitist. Just making a discussion.

I find this:

don't even pay attention to scores when I play these games

Hard to compute with this:

I think in my first few posts I should've made this more clear (though no doubt some of you will still find fault with this method of play), that it should be survival first, score second. What I mean by this is you should play only to win on your first run-through, up until seeing the final boss. Then when you've beaten the game once, this is when you start trying to improve your game. See? Two "entirely" different methods of play going hand in hand. Magical. I think it's unreasonable for anyone to suggest playing the score-way first and foremost. When you are finished with the game and familiar with it, sure? But if you do it from the onset, it's nothing but a fucking chore.

What you fail to see is that it is you who started lecturing people on how to play shmups. With your first post. I hate to say this, but since you obviously have no experience with shmups I don't think you are in your right position to argue in this matter. I mean:

I think it's unreasonable for anyone to suggest playing the score-way first and foremost When you are finished with the game and familiar with it, sure? But if you do it from the onset, it's nothing but a fucking chore.

You said before that you don't even look at the score, yet now you argue against score-playing as if you any experience? You are of course allowed to play shmups any way you want, but your arguments are silly. You

[Klatrymadon]

I decide to restart right from the beginning, because I've come to find if you restart without your power-ups in even like level 2 or 3, you're kind of fucked, unless you're pretty good with the level... which I'm not. Who is to say I won't be eventually?

That's the thing - you almost certainly will be, even on your very next attempt. You'll also get much better at recovering from having all of your power-ups taken away from you after a death, too. I take your point that restarting over and over in one particular game can feel like a chore, but this stuff helps you to develop general skills that will save you a lot of time in every game. It's rewarding; you'll soon find yourself getting much further in your games without having to continue or restart.

By the way, most of us here frequently do suggest playing for survival rather than score at first...

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Play how you want. Shmups aren't generally a multiplayer thing so if you creditfeed you're not ruining anyone else's fun. That said, this forum is generally dedicated to scoring well and 1ccing games so sayingyou "play" a shooter doesn't mean you turn on the game and press buttons. If that's what you want to do, that's cool but I wouldn't say anything lest you incur the spite of many nerds who think you're having fun the wrong way.

Me and probably some of the others have nothing against having fun playing a video game, its just that we think youll have more fun playing it how we do.

Ive a feeling that what Klatrymadon said is true that most of the ppl here who only play shmups by credit feeding havn't even tried to play for 1cc or score. I bet if most credit feeders actually did so and didnt give up halfway and actually completed the goals they set out to do would have a big change in their attitude towards 1cc / score. ( it doesnt need to be a hard shmup any shooter that a gamer will need to work hard for a week or 2 to beat it will suffice)

[rockyraccoon5]

It's not hard to see why this genre is so niche, come to think of it. If I were anymore casual than I already am, I would be scared away merely by the genre's fanbase. Some of you are humble and kind, but some of you, Drago in particular, baffle me. Oh and,

That's the thing - you almost certainly will be, even on your very next attempt. You'll also get much better at recovering from having all of your power-ups taken away from you after a death, too. I take your point that restarting over and over in one particular game can feel like a chore, but this stuff helps you to develop general skills that will save you a lot of time in every game. It's rewarding; you'll soon find yourself getting much further in your games without having to continue or restart.

I definitely don't think of restarting in itself a chore, at all. I think the restarting feeds into my personality. I can be kind of perfectionist, so I like to get things just right. It's fun for me to just keep getting better at it and finding the weapon combos that will cause the most harm*, so I think yeah I do play in a somewhat perfectionist manner and when I do get good enough at the genre I'll go for score, but I'm making it a point to never look down upon newbies such as myself like Drago has.

* When it does come to scores, this actually interests me. In games do certain more powerful weapon combos give you lesser scores, like a penalty for doing more damage or something? Not sure if that makes much sense. Basically does weapon type ever factor into score?

[Jockel]

It's not hard to see why this genre is so niche, come to think of it. If I were anymore casual than I already am, I would be scared away merely by the genre's fanbase. Some of you are humble and kind, but some of you, Drago in particular, baffle me.

lolwhat? Dragoforce is such a nice and calm guy.
Plus he is from Sweden, which makes him awesome by law.