Decimation X (from Xona Games)...

[Jeneki]

Out of curiosity, what's the difference between Auto Fire and Rapid Fire powerups?

Finally got past 2 million. Definitely got my dollars worth on this game.

[Xonatron]

Unreal! Decimation X is the highest rated Xbox LIVE Indie Game in Japan:
http://marketplace.xbox.com/ja-JP/games ... 3&rl=0&p=1

I am going to bring Jason in here to answer some of these questions. We have considered changing the names of the power ups to be more descriptive.

[Thunder Force]

Every second the game seems to drop a frame, or pause to be more precise. It's regular as clockwork, obvious even just moving the ship endlessly left to right, everything in the game is affected by it too. It's just this tiny pause, and it spoils the experience.

If it helps, this is a Euro 360 set to 720P at 60hz. When I set it to 50hz it looked fine, no more pausing, which seems .. wrong. No other XBLA Indie game I've tried (several) does this.

Your description sounds remarkably like that bizzare rendering bug that affects all PAL Xbox versions of Halo 1 when run in PAL60 mode...

[Jason]

Every second the game seems to drop a frame, or pause to be more precise. It's regular as clockwork, obvious even just moving the ship endlessly left to right, everything in the game is affected by it too. It's just this tiny pause, and it spoils the experience.

If it helps, this is a Euro 360 set to 720P at 60hz. When I set it to 50hz it looked fine, no more pausing, which seems .. wrong. No other XBLA Indie game I've tried (several) does this.

If it happens once a second, and not 10 times a second, then this is an XNA Framework issue over which I have no control. The same 1 frame skip every 1 second on the dot, like clockwork, has been seen in other XNA games (Indie Games) and even in Duality ZF which I enforced an absolutely no garbage (programming term) policy to make sure I have absolutely NO frame drops. Decimation X has very very little garbage, not enough to cause a frame drop, and certainly not in a clockwork fashion that would cause one every second.

There's nothing I can tell you except that if you play the game again, it likely won't happen again. If you play another XNA game, you may run into this problem again (although most XNA games don't require the smooth 60 fps as shmups do). It's possible that your own Xbox messing around in the background is screwing with the XNA trying to run at the same time, and these are glitches I can do nothing about. All of the several Xbox 360's I've tested the game on show no frame drops, and my development Xbox 360 has shown a frame drop on XNA games on occasion, but it 'goes away' for months on end.

Thanks for the bug report. If this continues, or goes away, please let me know.

[Jason]

Out of curiosity, what's the difference between Auto Fire and Rapid Fire powerups?

Finally got past 2 million. Definitely got my dollars worth on this game.

A = Auto Fire = more rapid firing, it shoots again more quickly.
R = Rapid Fire = faster moving bullets, so you can reuse them (like the R in Contra and Super-C).

EDIT: I was going to fix these names by renaming them, but I've decided NOT to, since people are already used to the way the game is now, and are writing up strategies about which icons are important, and I don't want to affect them. So they will stay as-is.

[Jason]

My thoughts...

"Intense Retro" is our tag line, and I believe it fits. While the world is sick of hearing "retro", it's because the games that claim to be retro really are not retro. We plan to release games that have the retro style gameplay with the intensity of today's standards. That makes "intense retro".

Decimation X is definitely retro in every sense of the word, except in its intensity.
Duality ZF is retro in its gameplay and design.

We are going to continue to make retro games, much like the original retros, such as old school shmups, 2.5D style racing/flying games as well as shmups in that style. Everything about us is going to be retro in gameplay, and we're going to add the intensity that the hardware of yesteryear couldn't do, to keep up with the increasing expectation of gamers. It's just sad that the word retro can be taken in a negative tone since the gamer has been disappointed by the false claims of "retro remake" companies. We are not going to follow in such shoes. We are claiming to be precisely what we are, and nothing more.

I really hope you guys give Decimation X a try. It's just a $1 game, quick play, low investment of time/money, a get-in-and-get-out fast type of game, that's meant to be a simple challenge. When the online scoreboards go up next week, I am sure we'll see some decent competition here.

Thanks for your time for your feedback, positive or not. We read it all, and all of it is valuable. It helps us correct mistakes and move forward in a better direction.

[Jason]

Also, is the goal of your game to reduce the alien armada to 1/10 of its size in order to win? Because you know, that's what the word "decimation" means... just wondering.

This is the meaning of decimation that Decimation X intends to reflect (it's a more modern meaning than the old meaning you've mentioned, although thanks for mentioning it):
http://www.google.com/dictionary?aq=f&l ... tion&hl=en
"To decimate something such as a group of people or animals means to destroy a very large number of them."

[Xonatron]

Little nit picks :
After a death, it takes too long for the new ship to be scrolled back onto the screen - it breaks the flow of the game somewhat as by the time you get up and through the levels things are moving at a very fast pace. Having to wait for the ship to trundle out breaks the speed a bit.

We have heard this one a bit. I even mentioned this myself in beta-testing. A quick revival, and no pause in action, is exactly what we do in Duality ZF, so why not in Decimation X? It emphasizes the death. Deaths are more important in this game, as there's no continues, and it's all about high scoring. As a solution, perhaps we could leave in the ship scroll-on revival (as opposed to reviving yourself immediately, on the spot, with invincibility), but just make it a bit faster.

[Malc74]

Bought. A fun little game, and for 80 points it's stupid value for money (hell, I probably got my dollar's worth just playing the demo).
Nice work guys! Looking forward to Duality (whenever it finally appears).

[system11]

Every second the game seems to drop a frame, or pause to be more precise. It's regular as clockwork, obvious even just moving the ship endlessly left to right, everything in the game is affected by it too. It's just this tiny pause, and it spoils the experience.

If it helps, this is a Euro 360 set to 720P at 60hz. When I set it to 50hz it looked fine, no more pausing, which seems .. wrong. No other XBLA Indie game I've tried (several) does this.

If it happens once a second, and not 10 times a second, then this is an XNA Framework issue over which I have no control. The same 1 frame skip every 1 second on the dot, like clockwork, has been seen in other XNA games (Indie Games) and even in Duality ZF which I enforced an absolutely no garbage (programming term) policy to make sure I have absolutely frame drops. Decimation X has very very little garbage, not enough to cause a frame drop, and certainly not in a clockwork fashion that would cause one every second.

Thanks for the bug report. If this continues, or goes away, please let me know.

It seems to come and go - it looks like if the problem is there you need to reboot the 360 to have a chance of removing it. You know, I actually think it might be related to when you get messages, the three times i tried tonight it was bad twice (I was getting messages before I started the game), third time it was ok (no messages).

[dcharlie]

but just make it a bit faster.

yup that would work

[Jason]

It seems to come and go - it looks like if the problem is there you need to reboot the 360 to have a chance of removing it. You know, I actually think it might be related to when you get messages, the three times i tried tonight it was bad twice (I was getting messages before I started the game), third time it was ok (no messages).

Yup it comes and goes, that's matches what I see. It's very likely to do with internal Xbox processes, so it's very possible getting messages could be causing this, among other things. Unforunately, there's nothing I can really do about it. I do have what I call the "slowdown syndrome enforcer" implemented, such that when a frame is skipped, the game doesn't continue to update until the gamer sees the skipped frame.

[system11]

It seems to come and go - it looks like if the problem is there you need to reboot the 360 to have a chance of removing it. You know, I actually think it might be related to when you get messages, the three times i tried tonight it was bad twice (I was getting messages before I started the game), third time it was ok (no messages).

Yup it comes and goes, that's matches what I see. It's very likely to do with internal Xbox processes, so it's very possible getting messages could be causing this, among other things. Unforunately, there's nothing I can really do about it. I do have what I call the "slowdown syndrome enforcer" implemented, such that when a frame is skipped, the game doesn't continue to update until the gamer sees the skipped frame.

Well I hope you raise a bug report to Microsoft about it

[brokenhalo]

cool concept. super simple, and seemingly too easy when you first start out, but gets intense pretty fast. as your shields wear out you find yourself having to wade through some crazy stuff to try and grab the shield power-ups.

you'll get my dollar as soon as i grab another point card

[rancid3000]

I really like this game. At first I thought it was ok but as I went on I really felt how it was supposed to be played. There's definitely strategy in terms of which powerups to get. Well done guys. I can't wait for Duality!!!

[Jason]

Thanks for the positive comments guys. It seems the worst thing about the game is that it doesn't jump into the "more fun" part sooner. I'll think about ways I can rectify this, but it's difficult to change a game after it's been released, since it messes with the high score boards, and it could possibly break an already winning formula. In any case, we're listening to all of your feedback!

P.S. I'm going to submit a bug report regarding the occasional frame skip every second (I'm sure I reported this a while ago, back when I first started coding Duality ZF...)

[emphatic]

The appearance of this game on the Japanese marketplace, does that mean that Duality will be there as well if/when it's released?

[Jason]

The appearance of this game on the Japanese marketplace, does that mean that Duality will be there as well if/when it's released?

Yes! And that's WHEN it's released, not IF. After this next update to Decimation X is done, I'll be heading back full time into Duality to fix up what remains. If XBLA doesn't pan out by the time it's done, it'll hit Indie Games in numerous countries.

[emphatic]

The appearance of this game on the Japanese marketplace, does that mean that Duality will be there as well if/when it's released?

Yes! And that's WHEN it's released, not IF. After this next update to Decimation X is done, I'll be heading back full time into Duality to fix up what remains. If XBLA doesn't pan out by the time it's done, it'll hit Indie Games in numerous countries.

Awesome, can't wait for it.

[TMR]

In any case, we're listening to all of your feedback!

In that case, if i whine a bit here about wanting a PC release 'cos i don't have a 360...? =-)

[Jason]

In that case, if i whine a bit here about wanting a PC release 'cos i don't have a 360...? =-)

After Duality ZF is released on the Xbox 360, the PC release via Steam is our next effort.

[Xonatron]

Drunken Gamer Radio review:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6KcT38n1as

[lgb]

Am I the only one who reacts negatively to the word "retro" used to describe shmups? It's like saying "please don't take the shmup genre seriously". I keep thinking of that aweful Illvelo cover.

this is the actual point

[Jason]

Well I hope you raise a bug report to Microsoft about it

I have!
I think we may be talking about 2 different bugs:

1. A frame skip every second, only once a second, like clockwork --- this occurs seemingly randomly on SDTV's that run at 60 Hz, I think due to an XNA timing issue that may be caused by background processes. Some TVs are claimed to report 59 Hz instead of 60 Hz, that lost Hz is the skip once per second.

2. 50 Hz TVs trying to display 60 Hz animation --- this means 10 frame skips per second. The game should just run at 50 Hz, which is damn near impossible for a pixel-game like Decimation X, but it can be done, kind of ugly, and the result would be FAR better than seeing 10 frame skips per second. This is unlikely to happen now, since the game engine is done. I'll record this for Decimation II, so I can hopefully fix this issue. I am not sure if this issue is actually bothering anyone though -- since most TVs do show 60 Hz fine.

[system11]

Well I hope you raise a bug report to Microsoft about it

I have!
I think we may be talking about 2 different bugs:

1. A frame skip every second, only once a second, like clockwork --- this occurs seemingly randomly on SDTV's that run at 60 Hz, I think due to an XNA timing issue that may be caused by background processes. Some TVs are claimed to report 59 Hz instead of 60 Hz, that lost Hz is the skip once per second.

2. 50 Hz TVs trying to display 60 Hz animation --- this means 10 frame skips per second. The game should just run at 50 Hz, which is damn near impossible for a pixel-game like Decimation X, but it can be done, kind of ugly, and the result would be FAR better than seeing 10 frame skips per second. This is unlikely to happen now, since the game engine is done. I'll record this for Decimation II, so I can hopefully fix this issue. I am not sure if this issue is actually bothering anyone though -- since most TVs do show 60 Hz fine.

Well a small update on this - still happening from time to time (the regular pause once a second thing), sometimes within the space of a single game - it'll come and go. I played a LOT of indie games over the weekend (there's some great stuff out there), mostly 60fps stuff and I didn't see a single one do the same thing even once, so it really does seem Decimation-X specific I'm afraid.

[Jason]

Well a small update on this - still happening from time to time (the regular pause once a second thing), sometimes within the space of a single game - it'll come and go. I played a LOT of indie games over the weekend (there's some great stuff out there), mostly 60fps stuff and I didn't see a single one do the same thing even once, so it really does seem Decimation-X specific I'm afraid.

Thanks for the update. I haven't witnessed this myself yet. Perhaps it has to do with the way it accesses the HD, and maybe this is the internal process that is causing the timing issues. If it's Decimation X specific, that's the only thing I can think of. But, I'm not doing anything weird, I'm following standard protocol. The update with online scoreboards will act a little differently with the HD, since it'll be P2P sharing scores, and saving them, so we'll see if that fixes it. I have noticed other Indie games, including Duality ZF very occasionally show the 1 frameskip / second issue, but it usually doesn't show itself, so I know that this is not Decimation X specific -- it's something wrong with the framework that perhaps Decimation X invokes that the other games that you've played do not. If I knew what that was -- which I don't, since I didn't write the framework -- I could avoid that issue. Software is complex, and sometimes it's hard to tell who is at fault, even follow standard scientific methods sometimes leads to the wrong conclusion, as your tests show it's Decimation X specific, whereas mine show it is not. The truth is likely what I've said, the framework has issues and Decimation X is invoking them. In any case, the bug report has been submitted and there's a thread on the XNA forums covering the issue, so hopefully we'll resolve it.

Thanks for your time.

[Jason]

2. 50 Hz TVs trying to display 60 Hz animation --- this means 10 frame skips per second. The game should just run at 50 Hz, which is damn near impossible for a pixel-game like Decimation X, but it can be done, kind of ugly, and the result would be FAR better than seeing 10 frame skips per second. This is unlikely to happen now, since the game engine is done. I'll record this for Decimation II, so I can hopefully fix this issue. I am not sure if this issue is actually bothering anyone though -- since most TVs do show 60 Hz fine.

I've confirmed that only very old PAL TVs have this issue. All modern PAL TVs are quite capable of supporting both 50 Hz and 60 Hz inputs, so this is NOT a problem. Someone had mentioned in a private message that it was only on 50 Hz TVs that had the stutter problem, but this would only be the case if it were a really old TV, and in that case, it would cause 10 frameskips/second, not just 1. So that's an entirely different issue than the 1 frameskip / second bug report that I've just filed.

[rancid3000]

Hey guys. I have two questions. I got a pretty good score of 2.8 million and the game ended and I saw my gamer tag and the score on the high score list. So then I shut my xbox off. When I went back to play it again later on the score was not there. Do I have to hit A and go back to the main menu in order for the score to save? Has anyone else had this problem?

My friend and I were also talking about how you cannot make very precise movements. Your ship moves pretty fast. You can move slowly but you have to be really gentle with the analog stick. I'm not necessarily complaining about it but I'm sure you made a conscious decision about this and I'm curious to know your logic behind this choice.

*** Edit ***

I just saw that both of them answered my first question here on Matthew's youtube video seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvaTgH2SWy4

From Matthew: @rancid3000 i forwarded this to jason, and i'll see what he says. perhaps in our next update (with online scores) something can be done to fix this and immediately save your score. it could be a cache issue, where the game wrote out the score but the cache did not. i won't comment more as it's not my territory to do so!

From Jason: My code loads the high scores, adds the new scores, and then saves them immediately, you don't have to press A. But there are issues with the XNA Framework that are causing problems. The update for Decimation X with the online scoreboards is going to revamp the whole storage process to make sure everything works properly regardless of these issues. I am very sorry that the score was lost, I know what this is like, and it's my #1 priority right now to ensure this never happens again.

[Jason]

My friend and I were also talking about how you cannot make very precise movements. Your ship moves pretty fast. You can move slowly but you have to be really gentle with the analog stick. I'm not necessarily complaining about it but I'm sure you made a conscious decision about this and I'm curious to know your logic behind this choice.

This is a tough one. Input could be adjusted such that the amount you move the stick isn't proportional to the resulting motion on screen, which means it's easier to make slight motions, but because it's not linear, it can be difficult to accurately control it. Then again, in Decimation X, you're either moving full speed, or just want to move a nudge. But, then again, sometimes you have to move full speed to find that one slot that's open, and stop right in the middle of it, and without linear control this can be difficult. Either case, you have to get used to the controls, and if I change it, I'll annoy some people and make others happy. This is a very difficult problem. I found myself complaining out loud at Serious Sam because of the control acceleration that abruptly shuts off as soon as you're not pushing directly to the left/right, and it was making the game unplayable (for me), so I had to shut off their 'help'.

The question is:

Should I implement control adjusting such that smaller motions are more easy, at the risk of annoying others who are used to the current method? For the most part, you move at full speed, or wish to adjust slightly, so I'd say this is a good fix. But, what if I get it wrong? What if I adjust too much and it ruins the gameplay for a lot of customers? This is not something I wish to tweak at this moment, since it won't have the proper beta testing to be tweaked properly.

Please let me know your thoughts.

P.S. I find the controller matters a lot, since once you're out of the dead zone, it starts to create motion, and some controllers will lie in the dead zone very close to the edge, making it easier to move left than right. In fact, I widened the dead zone for my games to allow older controllers that actually lie still outside of the standard 12% sized deadzone, but this has the effect that a properly working controller has to be pushed a little bit further to invoke motion. There's no perfect solution, and you can't fix it for everyone, since the controllers themselves aren't even constant. So, let me know if the contolling is an actual issue or not. Does it bug you? Should it be fixed? After all, arcade games like this are all about the control, and user interface is very important to me.

[Ebbo]

Couldn't you just add a feature that while you're pressing some button, the movement speed halves? Or am I missing something critical?