More Hope for a Ketsui Port

[system11]

Hmmm,
I know the XBox (or 360) aren't popular choices around here, but they do have one rather novel games distribution method - XBox Live Arcade.
MS are very interested in getting small homebrew and (what would otherwise be) shareware titles available and are supposedly looking to radically expand this feature for the 360.

Pay around $10 for a title and get it available to download (and re-download) to your machine at any time.
Live will be available to ALL 360 owners out of the box - no subscription fee - so there could be a huge catalogue of interesting little niche titles available to play.
There are a couple of shmup titles on the XBox one - Pompom's Mutant Storm for example.
A lot of smaller companies could do a lot worse than get their stuff available to the public this way...

This is not quite true - Live will work out of the box for patch downloads and Live Arcade - but I believe that playing people online will still be a subscription service. As a constant user of Live, it's some of the best gaming money I've ever spent - their servers are absolutely rock solid, and I like having one name that nobody else can use in any game.

I was hoping MS would be a bit more experimental and bring the Shanghai Alice games to the Xbox, but I really don't see that happening in a billion years.

[dave4shmups]

"They're already dead. They were killed by those who think that Raiden III's visuals are "fine" enough and by those who can't distinguish between fake and true low res displays. "

So people who don't spend a lot of time in front of their TV sets, or monitors, with a magnifying glass are ruining the genre? That's completely ridiculous, IMO. So what if I like Raiden III's visuals; how in the world do you connect between that and killing the genre? If you don't like Raiden III's visuals, fine, but don't go making wild accusations that those of us who do have killed shmups. And with Naomi shmups still being produced, I'd hardly say the genre's dead, in any case.

At any rate, I wouldn't hope for too many shmups, especially domestic ones, on the 360. Microsoft could have, and should have, gotten some Type-X shmups, considering that that is a hardware that is based on XP, which they made, and which I'm certain they had to license to Taito. The fact that they didn't take advantage of that kills all this "Microsoft is more 2D friendly" business for me.

[Acid King]

Some "anal retentive purists" have indeed been trying to save the house for some years now by informing others, you know. Lots of these have realized what they were actually missing and are happier people now. Unfortunately, the amount of poor ignorants who thought that they couldn't learn anything new and just limited to use pejorative words like "anal retentive" in a try to hide their own drama was overwhelming.

It's not pejorative, it's true. You are anal retentive when it comes to this stuff and no, whining on the internet doesn't count as "trying" to save anything. There's a huge difference between people like yourself and the average shooting game player. Most players don't sit and bitch about scaled up sprites or shit on games they've never played after looking at some screens. You're nitpicking minor bullshit items that have NOTHING, repeat NOTHING to do with the games playability. Most people can't tell the difference between fake and true low res because they don't care or have never played the arcade originals. They don't mind because they have a good game to play regardless and castigating them as "poor ignorants" is elitist nonsense of the highest order.

[dave4shmups]

"It's not pejorative, it's true. You are anal retentive when it comes to this stuff and no, whining on the internet doesn't count as "trying" to save anything. There's a huge difference between people like yourself and the average shooting game player. Most players don't sit and bitch about scaled up sprites or shit on games they've never played after looking at some screens. You're nitpicking minor bullshit items that have NOTHING, repeat NOTHING to do with the games playability. Most people can't tell the difference between fake and true low res because they don't care or have never played the arcade originals. They don't mind because they have a good game to play regardless and castigating them as "poor ignorants" is elitist nonsense of the highest order. "

Thank you for saying this Acid King, I completely agree; this is NOTHING but nitpicking and elitism.

[GaijinPunch]

Dave -- quote tags dude... much easier to read.

[Recap]

It's not pejorative, it's true. You are anal retentive when it comes to this stuff and no, whining on the internet doesn't count as "trying" to save anything...

You know, if I call you "poor ignorant", it's also the truth, but it still is pejorative, much like the term "anal retentive", only that I used it in response to your provocation. That, or others like "elitist" or "nitpicking", are usually used by those who are just envious for not being able to participate due to their own limitations. They're "poor ignorants" instead of just "ignorants" because they open their mouth to speak about things they just have no clue.

Let me put this close example: A few years ago very few US gamers knew what the RGB signal was. Boards like this were full of people claiming that S-Video was the best thing in the world and that that RGB puristish thingie couldn't be really that different. Today very few claim such a stupidity. And what's better, lots of US gamers have found the way to take the RGB route.

It's not hard to see that with the fake low res thing it's going to be same with time. Or that Raiden III visuals are going to be generally considered anything but "fine" by those who cares about art and those nitpicking things, despite of what people like Dave4whatever exultantly believe. (By the way, Davey, you should learn to read between lines or to abstract an idea).

[dave4shmups]

"Or that Raiden III visuals are going to be generally considered anything but "fine" by those who cares about art and those nitpicking things, despite of what people like Dave4whatever exultantly believe."

I CARE about art, and I STILL LOVE Raiden III's visuals, so once again, you're just showing how elitist you really are. Quit the "poor ignorants" routine, and don't gripe about being called elitist until you do.

[TVG]

has recap even seen raiden 3?
lol

[sethsez]

If fake low res is enough to kill the genre, then the genre isn't worth saving. Personally, although I'd prefer games to be as accurate as possible, I'm not going to declare the genre dead because image filters are being used. This isn't because I can't tell the difference (it's really pretty blatant), but because I care more about the game than I do about some slightly blurred graphics.

Honestly, if someone mourns a genre due to the use of image filters and occasional polygonal games, I have to wonder if he's so obsessed with the minutia that he's incapable of seeing the forest for the trees.

[kid aphex]

dave, can you SERIOUSLY not figure out how to use the quote tags?

[TVG]

If fake low res is enough to kill the genre, then the genre isn't worth saving. Personally, although I'd prefer games to be as accurate as possible, I'm not going to declare the genre dead because image filters are being used. This isn't because I can't tell the difference (it's really pretty blatant), but because I care more about the game than I do about some slightly blurred graphics.

Honestly, if someone mourns a genre due to the use of image filters and occasional polygonal games, I have to wonder if he's so obsessed with the minutia that he's incapable of seeing the forest for the trees.

u ignorant envious bitch, u only say this becuz u cant buy a MVS.

[sethsez]

This is true. Deep down, I'm really envious of people who are able to suck the joy out of videogames and pick at them with a fine tooth comb in one hand and a checklist of features that must be included in the other.

[GaijinPunch]

Someone fill me in since I'm not a Raiden fan at all, and haven't been following Raiden 3... does the ARCADE version you some scaled up crap, or is this PS2 speculation?

[sethsez]

Neither. Recap's just bitching about the fact that it uses polygons and has generic art design (Raiden, with generic art design? OH MY!!!), which makes it a terrible game.

[dave4shmups]

Neither. Recap's just bitching about the fact that it uses polygons and has generic art design (Raiden, with generic art design? OH MY!!!), which makes it a terrible game.

That, and he fails to recognize, despite the fact that he's so into art, that there are different art STYLES.

Some people love contemporary art; others think it's crap. Same with shmups, some people on this board hate polygons and prefer sprite-based games.

None of the above is a problem, except when you get elitist and start proclaming that anyone who likes a different type of art then you do is an ignorant slob who's bringing about the downfall of all art, shmups, etc.

[dave4shmups]

dave, can you SERIOUSLY not figure out how to use the quote tags?

Yes I can figure them out, but sometimes I want to just pick out PART of a quote and not the whole thing-which is what I've been doing in this thread.

[Recap]

That, and he fails to recognize, despite the fact that he's so into art, that there are different art STYLES.

Some people love contemporary art; others think it's crap. Same with shmups, some people on this board hate polygons and prefer sprite-based games.

None of the above is a problem, except when you get elitist and start proclaming that anyone who likes a different type of art then you do is an ignorant slob who's bringing about the downfall of all art, shmups, etc.

Exultant Davey, since you CARE about art so much, you'll probably know that there are quality standards. It's not a matter of liking/disliking a specific style, but of seeing if there's any CREATION effort. While I can see it in, say, Ikaruga, and could enumerate its artistic achievements even if I don't actually like it, I don't think that ANYONE, exultant Davey included, could do the same with Raiden III. Now?

[velocity7]

Hey people, chill. I thought this thread was supposed to be talk about Ketsui, not about flaming back and forth?

[TVG]

ikaruga, art direction speaking, is a masterpiece.

i dont think we'll have another design of that caliber in years, 2D or 3D, just as we didnt before.

[dave4shmups]

That, and he fails to recognize, despite the fact that he's so into art, that there are different art STYLES.

Some people love contemporary art; others think it's crap. Same with shmups, some people on this board hate polygons and prefer sprite-based games.

None of the above is a problem, except when you get elitist and start proclaming that anyone who likes a different type of art then you do is an ignorant slob who's bringing about the downfall of all art, shmups, etc.

Exultant Davey, since you CARE about art so much, you'll probably know that there are quality standards. It's not a matter of liking/disliking a specific style, but of seeing if there's any CREATION effort. While I can see it in, say, Ikaruga, and could enumerate its artistic achievements even if I don't actually like it, I don't think that ANYONE, exultant Davey included, could do the same with Raiden III. Now?

Whatever, dude, I'm sick of debating with someone who's convinced that I'm dragging the genre into ruin because I like Raiden III. We both have different opinions, but we both need to get back on topic.

[dave4shmups]

Hey people, chill. I thought this thread was supposed to be talk about Ketsui, not about flaming back and forth?

No one's flaming, I haven't called Recap any nasty names, and he hasn't called me any either.

[GaijinPunch]

Yes I can figure them out, but sometimes I want to just pick out PART of a quote and not the whole thing-which is what I've been doing in this thread.

Then I would suggest highlighting and deleting the parts you don't want in the quote.

Then the next project would be combining posts. We'll make an A+ forum user out of you yet!

[dave4shmups]

Yes I can figure them out, but sometimes I want to just pick out PART of a quote and not the whole thing-which is what I've been doing in this thread.

Then I would suggest highlighting and deleting the parts you don't want in the quote.

Then the next project would be combining posts. We'll make an A+ forum user out of you yet!

Yes indeed! And I'm through debating with Recap, we have two irreconcilble points of view, and I need to stay on Topic.

So on topic, I'd love to see a Ketsui port as well, but I'm extremly doubtful that we'll see it on the PS2, seeing as how that console is near the end of it's life-span. If it's on the PS3, then I'm out; the J-PSTwo is probably the furthest I'll go, in terms of next-gen systems. (Unless we for certain get all that Sega goodness on the 360. )

[professor ganson]

If it's on the PS3, then I'm out; the J-PSTwo is probably the furthest I'll go, in terms of next-gen systems. (Unless we for certain get all that Sega goodness on the 360. )

Ah, you say that now. But five years ago who would have predicted all the great shmup action on the Japanese PS2? I prefer to remain agnostic at this point about whether the PS3 will be worth the price of admission.

[dave4shmups]

If it's on the PS3, then I'm out; the J-PSTwo is probably the furthest I'll go, in terms of next-gen systems. (Unless we for certain get all that Sega goodness on the 360. )

Ah, you say that now. But five years ago who would have predicted all the great shmup action on the Japanese PS2? I prefer to remain agnostic at this point about whether the PS3 will be worth the price of admission.

Good point, although considering that there are PS1 shmups that have glitches or won't play on the PS2, there's bound to be PS2 shmups that have glitches or won't play on the PS3-and the thing that worries me most is that it may end up being some of the one's that I like most.

So, I will definately wait and see how PS2-shmup backwards compatibility will work out on the PS3. And even if it does, if the American PS3 will retail for around $400, which is what I've been told, then the Japanese PS3 will cost even more. So if I do get ANY PS3, it's sure as heck not going to happen before the first price-drop.

[professor ganson]

if the American PS3 will retail for around $400, which is what I've been told, then the Japanese PS3 will cost even more. So if I do get ANY PS3, it's sure as heck not going to happen before the first price-drop.

No kidding, not to mention the huge shipping costs. I'm definitely going to be patient with this next gen. The only one I may have to jump on is the US Nintendo Revolution, if it is priced right. I guess I'm a bit of a Nintendo fanboy at heart.

[Marc]

If the shmup genre is going to put out retread garbage like galuda and DDOJ as well as pure crap such as Border Down, Chaos Field, etc it deserves to die. Cave lately has been a factory of average retread garbage and the poor sales of ports should hopefully either get Cave to turn it around or stop soiling consoles with the yawn-inducing garbage they've been pumping out of late.

Dude, if you consider DDOJ 'garbage' and Border Down 'crap', then I think you're going to be waiting for the rest of your life for someone to release a shooter you can actually enjoy.

The bottom line is that the genre is dead, not because devs aren't pumping out shitty shmups (sadly, they are) for the starved fanbase to waste their money on, but because there hasn't been any innovation in the genre in years. Fuck that, there hasn't even been a AAA shmup in years, forget innovative shmups.

They're 2D shooters. There's only so much innovation to be had. 'Innovate' too much, and you end up with gimmicky shooters that loose the original point of uncomplicated, easy-to enjoy play. And if there's truely not one shooter you'd consider top-drawer over the last few years, maybe the genre isn't for you anymore?

And again, because people don't seem to be able to get this through their heads, 'shitty' is subjective. I like Trizeal. Not because it's on DC, or because of the manner in which it was developed and released by a small team, but because I enjoy it. Simple as. In the same way as you don't enjoy DDOJ and Border Down, even though most others seem to. I don't like Radiant Silvergun much. In fact (*gasp*) I prefer to play Trizeal. I don't need to 'convince' myself or anyone else of that, it's my opinion, and if asked why, it's simply because Trizeal is much more my 'thing'. RS might be someone else's, fuck, I hate Mars Matrix, but I'm sure that's someone's favorite.

I totally agree. People here still prefers to purchase Trizeal, thoe. "Shooting love", you know...

Maybe, because 'people' don't own a JPN PS2. Or maybe because... they thought Trizeal's old-style gameplay might be more to their liking than Cave's bullet-fests'. Look outside... yep, the world is still turning.

[sethsez]

Exultant Davey, since you CARE about art so much, you'll probably know that there are quality standards. It's not a matter of liking/disliking a specific style, but of seeing if there's any CREATION effort. While I can see it in, say, Ikaruga, and could enumerate its artistic achievements even if I don't actually like it, I don't think that ANYONE, exultant Davey included, could do the same with Raiden III. Now?

You might have had a point if not for the fact that one of your standards for art quality is how Japanese something is. You're not exactly an objective art critic either.

[TGK]

PS2 is underpowered huh?

It is indeed.

Also developing for it is a pain. Not anything impossible, but just cumbersome. It also lacks a decent SDK and tool chain (compared to, say, the Xbox).

So although I do feel glad at the possibility for PS2 port(s), I'm not keeping my hope up.

As for Recap and others doing the art-style-for-shmup debate, please start another topic, and limit your post to non-insulting arguments. That way we get a coherent and on-topic discussion that might be informative to other fans or people who are interested in the current direction of the genre.

Thanks.

[system11]

PS2 is underpowered huh?

It is indeed.

I still want someone to tell me how a shmup is more taxing than Gran Turismo 4, or Dynasty Warriors 5. The answer to poor coding or quick ports, is not to throw CPU power at them - despite what the entire PC world believes.