confessions of a pathetic shmupper

[sffan]

Anyway replay videos are just one person's approach to playing the game. If you got really good on your own terms you might discover other ways to play the game just as well. The superplay DVD is not how you're "supposed" to play, it's just one guy's solution that he developed on his own.

I see it like guitar playing. You can try to mimick another guitarist's style but that doesn't make you good. You'll just sound like you're imitating someone else.

[TVG]

i think twitch is just displaying a bit of old man stuborness :p

how could people not understand that there's some people that enjoy watching a very skilled person play?

everytime i watch laos play DOJ on the DVD that comes with the game, i almost shed a tear, its beautiful, like poetry, or watching someone highly skilled at anything like sports or arts. of course you will learn something from it, that this stuff is acessible to a human.

as for trying to MIMIC a superplay, as anyone that has a clue said, that will pretty much make you worse for numerous reasons i cant be bothered to explain because they have beeen countless times already.

yes you learn something from it, does it matter? not really, it wont make a huge difference cept lerning a tric or two here and there.

as for these people you run into gamefaqs, it was probably ikaruga dudes, and frankly, i dont understand some of them, like that one screaming everywhere he's better than wizz (sp?) on stage 5, while he probably learned to do what he does from him, and completely forgetting the fact that he saw a single play that was most likely improved since theen.
also, most of these dudes like stage challenges only, few of them competee for the whole game.
i find that kinda weak.

im not saying that all ikaruga competitors are lamers, but ive run into some weird ones for sure, probably because its the most popular shmup competition wise.

as a fact, i make a rule not watch any psikyo replay (of games im playing) or any memorization and safespot heavy shmup, its pointless, not exciting and CAN ruin your enjoyment of these games.

on another note, i dont understand these topics, so you suck, whohohooo?

i mean, do people feel discriminated against? ive never seen someone attack a dude because he was bad at shmups, why everyone is stressing "default settings" is because we use it as a measure to compare with each other, why would we care about your easy mode achievements or in how many credits you can beat X game? keep that to yourself.
the only flames that ensue is when someone is bragging and not playing on default settings, claiming (wrongly so) to be better than most of us, as seen lately in that doj topic.

[Davey]

In everything I do I copy, I never innovate. I got exactly where I am now in life by people telling me how to do stuff. Thats why I went to school in the first place, how I learnt how to drive.

I only try something different once I have the template to work from.

I would rather someone in the arcades put their $150 of practice in the machine and show me how to do it with $10.

IMHO, innovating is one of the best parts of gaming (and life in general, really). Admittedly, it is much more efficient to follow the lead of others and avoid other people's past mistakes, but that seems so dull and uninspired. Then again, trial-and-error isn't necessarily a boatload of fun, either, and can often be more tedious than creative. Either way, to each his own, I suppose.

Haven't we had this debate before?

Saying "I told you so" has always been a guilty pleasure of mine.

[Danny]

I don't think credit feeding or putting the game on easy are "lame" beacuse the game was designed for those functions.

For example if you are in an arcade and you credit feed then arcade owner makes money (that's his/her livelyhood people!) and if a game producer creates a game with an easy option so that players can ease themselfs into the game then it's OK to complete that before moving on to the standard settings so that the player at least has some idea of how to play the game.

True lameness is when people use cheat disks or action replay style divices! Although I do own some of these disks I only uses them to play import games and not to cheat with them.

[Accutron]

I don't think credit feeding or putting the game on easy are "lame" beacuse the game was designed for those functions.

For example if you are in an arcade and you credit feed then arcade owner makes money (that's his/her livelyhood people!) and if a game producer creates a game with an easy option so that players can ease themselfs into the game then it's OK to complete that before moving on to the standard settings so that the player at least has some idea of how to play the game.

True lameness is when people use cheat disks or action replay style divices! Although I do own some of these disks I only uses them to play import games and not to cheat with them.

How is using Action Replay any different than credit feeding? Both are cheating to obtain infinite lives/health/whatever, and both involve giving extra money to a third party to artificially increase one's achievement in a game (the manufacturer of the cheat device, or the arcade operator). Lots of games have built in cheat menus...just because it's built in doesn't mean it isn't cheating. Credit feeding, as a habit, is super lame.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

I don't think credit feeding or putting the game on easy are "lame" beacuse the game was designed for those functions.

For example if you are in an arcade and you credit feed then arcade owner makes money (that's his/her livelyhood people!) and if a game producer creates a game with an easy option so that players can ease themselfs into the game then it's OK to complete that before moving on to the standard settings so that the player at least has some idea of how to play the game.

True lameness is when people use cheat disks or action replay style divices! Although I do own some of these disks I only uses them to play import games and not to cheat with them.

To use even more annoying comparisons...

Well, a car is designed with seatbelts and airbags as "functions". But still, crashing isn't cool...its lame!
For example. If you're in an accident, and you mess up your car, the paint and body shops make money. (thats their livelyhood people!)

Please, lets stop with the comparing of other things, especially sports!. I really can't see it working.
You can't compare it to driving a car...you can't compare it to playing guitar.
If anything, its like I said before. Its like someone else doing your homework for you.
Then again, when it all comes down to it, its just a fucking video game!

PS: I'm glad I'm only a 57% or so(video game freak test) because some of you guys take your gaming WAY too seriously.
I' mean here we are, arguing over if its lame to play a game on easy or not. Of course it is!
Just about any game can be beat on easy with unlimited credits! Give a monkey enough time, and he'll even be able to pull it off,
Huh, you could even set a brick on the controller...as long as it will hit start for you, even that humble brick will beat the game.
Still, its lame anyway you cut it.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

Alright, I need to set the record straight here a bit, as one poster seems a little confused with my opinions. (The Vagrant)

I never said watching a replay video was lame...I did specify that watching a replay video only to memorize it to learn how to play was lame!

Sure, watching a skilled player can be pretty cool, but even that can ruin a game for you in some respects.

I think enough has been said here, I'm off now to go play some San Andrea's.

[Danny]

Accutron please read my post properly before posting next time. What I said was that I do use Action Replay but only to import video games so I don't use them to cheat in fact I said in my post that using them to cheat is the ultimate form of lameness. Now if using a Action replay 4m plus for the sega saturn which was specialy made for importing snk's and capcoms later fighitng games is consdiered "lame" you guys are dumb. (yeah ok that was a little harsh but that's how I feel, and again I DON'T USE IT TO CHEAT!)

On the point of "credit feeding" I don't generaly do it due to the fact I'm usualy broke a hell when I enter the arcade and I perfer a challange, hey that's what most shmups are these days right?. Anyway the general sense that most poeple use credit feeding to get the grips with the game before playing it "properly". And say if a player is going to pump 5 big ones into a machine would he rather die and get to the same place 5 times in a row or at least use one of those bucks to get past the bit he's stuck on? either way the arcade has still taken you're money and the arcade owner is happy because he's just made 5 buck outta you.

I don't mind people credit feeding as long as they don't turn around and say "Oh that game was easy!" once they completed the game.

[Accutron]

Accutron please read my post properly before posting next time. What I said was that I do use Action Replay but only to import video games so I don't use them to cheat in fact I said in my post that using them to cheat is the ultimate form of lameness.

I think it is you who should learn to read more carefully. I never said anything about you using Action Replay to cheat. You said that using cheat devices was lame, but credit feeding wasn't. I said that they are equally lame. End of story.

[Danny]

well saying "How is using Action Replay any different than credit feeding?" does kinda imply that you thought I did dude but yeah you right can be taken either way. And by the way about the thrid party thing I'd rather be supporting a arcade operator than a cheat cart maker. After all the money a shmup or any kind of arcade game makes the more likely the arcade owner is going to buy more games of that type in the future. (But I guess using unlimited continues on games would shorten the game's life span and ultimatly cheat the player out of an accomplishment)

[Accutron]

Heh, I would be more likely to use a cheat device in my own home, behind closed doors, than credit feed in public. I wouldn't be caught dead doing either, but it's the difference between private and public shame

[Danny]

Well I'm always broke, buying way to many video games these days but I guess people might feel forced to credit feed in public if they did not own the game at home.

Saying that I try to support arcades as much as possbale intill I buy a supergun which will be in two weeks time when I vist a local shop I know then after that the pie realy is the limit.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

Y'know what guys...I'm going to video tape myself reading this thread.
That way you guys can watch me read it(Appreciate Reading Video Replay) so you will have a much better understanding on how this whole thread works n' reads

[Rob]

I really hate those Appreciate DVDs, since they turn all future competition into a joke. Good luck competiting against people who are working from a near perfect template. Then all that's left is playing just for fun (noooo!).

[sethsez]

How is using Action Replay any different than credit feeding? Both are cheating to obtain infinite lives/health/whatever, and both involve giving extra money to a third party to artificially increase one's achievement in a game (the manufacturer of the cheat device, or the arcade operator). Lots of games have built in cheat menus...just because it's built in doesn't mean it isn't cheating. Credit feeding, as a habit, is super lame.

Arcade games are not designed to be played on one credit, even if it's possible. Some games (Gauntlet springs to mind) are actually designed to be as blatant a money-grab as possible without pissing off players.

Really, 1CCing an arcade game is like speedrunning a Metroid game... it's where a good amount of the replay comes from (especially from high-level players), but it's in response to the game's original intent (money-sucking in arcade games, exploration in Metroid games) rather than being the actual goal. "You can't credit feed" is very much a player-created rule (fighting fans are all too familiar with this concept), because continuing with another credit is built into the games and the arcade owners would really prefer you pump as much money into the machine as possible.

[freddiebamboo]

It's one thing to watch a superplay and another thing to actually be able to do it like them.

If this was the case, then the ikaruga and galuda score boards would be full of ridiculous scores, and they ain't.

If these replays are bad news, then surely our strat section is equally to blame for players getting better through outside influences?

[Icarus]

If these replays are bad news, then surely our strat section is equally to blame for players getting better through outside influences?

Now I'm all for the "do-it-yourself" method of learning a game. I agree that learning a game yourself is good fun, and good to build one's own skills. That's all good, if you like that sort of thing.

However, the one thing that seperates us Westerners from the Japanese players in playing skill is the distribution of gaming strategy. The Japanese have BBSes full of players trading strategies, replays and tips amongst themselves. Strategic information is common, and it's the availability of this information which improves the competitiveness of the players there.

It's only recently that the Western shmups players have started to build the same kind of infrastructure that the Japanese have with regards to sharing strategy information. And from my eyes, it seems to be improving the level of competition. A lot of players here are improving their scores by great margins, and the boards are increasing in competition, which is great.

In fact, just recently, the Japanese player RAM - who is 12th overall at Mushi Maniac mode in Japan - appeared at Click's forum and shared his strategic knowledge with those discussing the game there. If a Japanese top-rated player visits a Western board and kindly offers to share his knowledge with us, in the hope of increasing our competitiveness (so that someday, we might be able to match our Japanese counterparts), then isn't the sharing of strategy a good thing?

And why would anyone want to stop a good thing?

I was once told that a good competitor knows the secrets. A great competitor shares the secrets with others.

[freddiebamboo]

If these replays are bad news, then surely our strat section is equally to blame for players getting better through outside influences?

Now I'm all for the "do-it-yourself" method of learning a game. I agree that learning a game yourself is good fun, and good to build one's own skills. That's all good, if you like that sort of thing.

However, the one thing that seperates us Westerners from the Japanese players in playing skill is the distribution of gaming strategy. The Japanese have BBSes full of players trading strategies, replays and tips amongst themselves. Strategic information is common, and it's the availability of this information which improves the competitiveness of the players there.

It's only recently that the Western shmups players have started to build the same kind of infrastructure that the Japanese have with regards to sharing strategy information. And from my eyes, it seems to be improving the level of competition. A lot of players here are improving their scores by great margins, and the boards are increasing in competition, which is great.

In fact, just recently, the Japanese player RAM - who is 12th overall at Mushi Maniac mode in Japan - appeared at Click's forum and shared his strategic knowledge with those discussing the game there. If a Japanese top-rated player visits a Western board and kindly offers to share his knowledge with us, in the hope of increasing our competitiveness (so that someday, we might be able to match our Japanese counterparts), then isn't the sharing of strategy a good thing?

And why would anyone want to stop a good thing?

I was once told that a good competitor knows the secrets. A great competitor shares the secrets with others.

Precisely, superplays + guides etc.. are not things to dismiss as detrimental to hi score gaming, or the enjoyment of gaming. They simply offer either assisstance, or a skill to be appreciated in the case of some superplays.

I doubt that any players on this board have not been thankful for guidance in helping them improve at a game, and superplays are a large part of that.

[Acid King]

I don't think credit feeding or putting the game on easy are "lame" beacuse the game was designed for those functions.

For example if you are in an arcade and you credit feed then arcade owner makes money (that's his/her livelyhood people!) and if a game producer creates a game with an easy option so that players can ease themselfs into the game then it's OK to complete that before moving on to the standard settings so that the player at least has some idea of how to play the game.

True lameness is when people use cheat disks or action replay style divices! Although I do own some of these disks I only uses them to play import games and not to cheat with them.

How is using Action Replay any different than credit feeding? Both are cheating to obtain infinite lives/health/whatever, and both involve giving extra money to a third party to artificially increase one's achievement in a game (the manufacturer of the cheat device, or the arcade operator). Lots of games have built in cheat menus...just because it's built in doesn't mean it isn't cheating. Credit feeding, as a habit, is super lame.

Continuing is cheating? On the same level as say, using a PAR to get invincibility? Come on man. Shooters are just like any other game, impossible for most everyone to play through without continuing. Are you saying I shouldn't continue or use save spots in Ninja Gaiden for Xbox? Continues are there for a reason, so people without perfect skills can enjoy a game and develop there skills because yes, credit feeding can and will help your playing as long as you are trying.

[professor ganson]

Speaking of cheats, I open up the GamePro I received in the mail today and find Gradius III & IV listed in the index, look to the relevant page, and find the following:

During Gradius IV, pause the game and then enter the following code:

Double-Shot Full Power-Up: Press Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, Square, Triangle.

Full Weapons Power-Up: Press Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, X, O.

Happy cheating!

[SFKhoa]

ah, ye classic Konami code modified for PS2.

[Accutron]

Arcade games are not designed to be played on one credit, even if it's possible. Some games (Gauntlet springs to mind) are actually designed to be as blatant a money-grab as possible without pissing off players.

What about every arcade game made before Tempest, which gave you 3 lives and no continues? Continues are obviously something that has been grafted on as a money maker, and has nothing to do with the gameplay (in shmups). The proof is in the fact that if you're playing the game properly, you won't die at all (in most shmups).

Continuing is cheating? On the same level as say, using a PAR to get invincibility? Come on man. Shooters are just like any other game, impossible for most everyone to play through without continuing. Are you saying I shouldn't continue or use save spots in Ninja Gaiden for Xbox? Continues are there for a reason, so people without perfect skills can enjoy a game and develop there skills because yes, credit feeding can and will help your playing as long as you are trying.

When the whole goal of the game is to not die, shoving quarters in to give yourself infinite lives thwarts the point of playing. I don't see what continuing in Ninja Gaiden has to do with anything...we're talking about shmups. The concept of the continue has mutated over the past 25 years...some games are designed with continues integrated into normal play, some aren't. No shooter that I know of is designed with continues as an inherent gameplay component; they are a tacked on feature, originally designed to give crappy players the option of purchasing their score at the arcade (or, in console-only shmups, their inclusion is to mimic arcade shooters, out of a sense of conformity or nostalgia).

How exactly is there any difference between using a cheat device (or built in cheat menu) to obtain infinite lives, and continuing infinitely?

Continues are not for improving your skills. They are for buying a high score. You can improve your skills faster by not continuing.

[sethsez]

Arcade games are not designed to be played on one credit, even if it's possible. Some games (Gauntlet springs to mind) are actually designed to be as blatant a money-grab as possible without pissing off players.

What about every arcade game made before Tempest, which gave you 3 lives and no continues? Continues are obviously something that has been grafted on as a money maker, and has nothing to do with the gameplay (in shmups). The proof is in the fact that if you're playing the game properly, you won't die at all (in most shmups).

Games before Tempest didn't have continues as part of the game. Thus, they weren't part of the rules. Games that do have continues have them as part of the rules. You might as well say that because you can't move a piece backwards in checkers, you're not allowed to do so in chess, either. The rules of one game (say, Galaga) have nothing to do with the rules of another game (DoDonPachi and such).

And yeah, if you play a perfect game, you'll never need to continue. So what? If you play a perfect game of Mega Man, you'll never get hit, but that doesn't mean you shut the game off because you accidentally ran into something. Life bars (in the games that have them) exist for a reason, multiple lives (in the games that have them) exist for a reason, and continues (in the games that have them) exist for a reason.

How exactly is there any difference between using a cheat device (or built in cheat menu) to obtain infinite lives, and continuing infinitely?

Because one is altering the game to get an effect the developers did not intend, while the other is utilizing a feature the developers not only intended, but push in your face with flashing numbers and blaring music the second you lose your last life. I don't like using a Game Genie to make myself invincible in Mario, but I have no qualms grabbing a star for invincibility.

Continues are not for improving your skills. They are for buying a high score. You can improve your skills faster by not continuing.

Most shmups reset the score when you continue, which is a fair trade-off. If score is a reflection of skill and you need to continue, you obviously don't have the skill to be rewarded with a high score. However, if that doesn't bother you, you're free to pump in more money to see the rest of the game, because the developers designed the game with that in mind.

You might not like the rules. You might think they're bad, stupid rules. But they're still the rules set forth by the game, so operating within them is not cheating.

[Accutron]

Most shmups reset the score when you continue, which is a fair trade-off. If score is a reflection of skill and you need to continue, you obviously don't have the skill to be rewarded with a high score. However, if that doesn't bother you, you're free to pump in more money to see the rest of the game, because the developers designed the game with that in mind.

You might not like the rules. You might think they're bad, stupid rules. But they're still the rules set forth by the game, so operating within them is not cheating.

In Tempest, the score does not reset. Having your score reset/altered when you continue was a necessary improvement because of backlash from pissed off players who were being 'beaten' by credit feeders.

Continues have nothing to do with a game's rules. They are a way for players to avoid the rules, because lack of skill plus rule adherence equals not seeing anything past level 3, and that's not good for arcade business. Continues are no more a gameplay element than a cab marquee is. They are a form of product promotion, nothing more.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

Let it be known that continues can be helpfull in developing patterns later on in later levels. This was how I was able to improve my skills in Strikers 1945 PLus.
Although, continues should never be abused, unless you're under 8 years old and or retarded.

Also, I've never used a replay video to improve my skills (in fact, the only one I've ever seen was Aichi Kens DDP run, which is also FAKE BTW)...I became a decent shmup player the old fashioned way...by playing and enjoying. The desire to improve. "Where there's a will, there's a way"!

Years ago,I used to allow myself 3 or 4 continues...since I gave that shit up, thats when I really improved.
You have to discipline yourself, and force yourself to realize that a continue is GAME OVER. When you do so, you will improve. In other words, play your first game as if its your LAST quarter.

Playing on easy will only help you beat a game on easy...nothing more.
Most games are entirely different when played on easy. Ikaruga is a perfect example of this.

BTW: I once beat Devil May Cry without dying, that was pretty awesome I thought, but it did take lots of play time to get that good at it.

Now, only if I could 1CC Ninja Gaiden (NES) then I really would be proud of myself. Then again, I'm still on a "high" from my 1CC in DoDonPachi (Saturn) from last year.

Go for it, and Good Luck...just take that shit offa easy!

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

BTW:
Also, you guys can stop explaining yourselves about credit feeding and replay watching.
I'm sure by now we all know how each other feels about these things.
I'm set in my ways, and your excusses won't "win me over" to start thinking its actually ok to not try. (PLaying on easy with infinte credits is NOT trying)
Then again, if you really didn't mind what other shmup-o's think, you wouldn't have asked for our opinions in the first place.

My advice is to start taking some advice...

Here's another cool example that I made up and quite like...
"Easy mode and Continues are like training wheels...sooner or later you're going to have to learn to ride without em, but yet you're still going to fall".

Because...
.
.
.


Training wheels don't teach balance, continues don't "magically" grant skill either.

[sethsez]

It's not an issue of whether you think continues are good or bad, or should be used. The issue is that it's stupid to claim using them is cheating when they're part of the game. It's just as ridiculous as claiming that using Akuma in a Street Fighter game is cheating (or the people who complain that throwing is unfair)... no, it's not cheating, he's just very badly balanced agaisnt everyone else. Taking advantage of an unbalanced game might be cheap, and it might be a bad aspect of the game's design, but unless you're abusing programming glitches to play outside of the game's rules, it's not cheating.

Now, in a competition, players can create more rules. These rules might very well include no continues (pretty much a certainty, actually), or in the case of a SF tourny, no Akuma. These are perfectly fair... but realize that they're player-created rules, not rules built into the game.

[black mariah]

I'd just like to say that my cock's bigger than all of yours.














This IS just another dick-length comparison, right?

[sffan]

To use even more annoying comparisons...

Well, a car is designed with seatbelts and airbags as "functions". But still, crashing isn't cool...its lame!
For example. If you're in an accident, and you mess up your car, the paint and body shops make money. (thats their livelyhood people!)

Please, lets stop with the comparing of other things, especially sports!. I really can't see it working.
You can't compare it to driving a car...you can't compare it to playing guitar.
If anything, its like I said before. Its like someone else doing your homework for you.
Then again, when it all comes down to it, its just a fucking video game!

Twitch, you're breaking your own advice! (See 3 posts above, your "training wheels " comparison)

Shame shame.

[Acid King]

When the whole goal of the game is to not die, shoving quarters in to give yourself infinite lives thwarts the point of playing. I don't see what continuing in Ninja Gaiden has to do with anything...we're talking about shmups. The concept of the continue has mutated over the past 25 years...some games are designed with continues integrated into normal play, some aren't. No shooter that I know of is designed with continues as an inherent gameplay component; they are a tacked on feature, originally designed to give crappy players the option of purchasing their score at the arcade (or, in console-only shmups, their inclusion is to mimic arcade shooters, out of a sense of conformity or nostalgia).

How exactly is there any difference between using a cheat device (or built in cheat menu) to obtain infinite lives, and continuing infinitely?

Continues are not for improving your skills. They are for buying a high score. You can improve your skills faster by not continuing.

Yes, the whole point of any game is to not die. Continuing in any game serves the exact same function, so that people who are not skilled have a shot at completing the game. No game has continues there as an inherent gameplay component so I have no idea why you're bringing it up since it is never a gameplay component, but as I said, they are there so people who aren't skilled can still have a good time with the game. They are in Ninja Gaiden for the same reason that they are Donpachi. They are not there for, as you claim, to "buy" high scores since scores reset when you continue. And I, as well as plenty of other players who have credit fed games before, can tell you that continuing DOES help your score, since it exposes you to more of the game and as your skill progresses on the earlier stages, having exposure to the later stages extends your runs thus causing your score to grow. The only way continues don't grant skill or help your high score is if you aren't trying. Obviously, if you beat a game on 10 credits the first time and then get down to 2 or 3 credits, your skills are improving, and your score is improving as well and arguably, doing so will develop your skills faster since you are exposing yourself to more of the game. Instead of practicing the first 3 levels over and over again, you're practicing the entire game.

And it's not the same as using a in game cheat menu anymore than using continues in Ninja Gaiden is cheating. Continuing doesn't change any of the games parameters like infinite lives or invincibility does.

Because one is altering the game to get an effect the developers did not intend, while the other is utilizing a feature the developers not only intended, but push in your face with flashing numbers and blaring music the second you lose your last life. I don't like using a Game Genie to make myself invincible in Mario, but I have no qualms grabbing a star for invincibility.

Well said.