What makes a shmup good?

[Klatrymadon]

Some of my favourite games display some of the elements people have highlighted as negative ones. R-Type Delta has quite a few sections in which I normally just park in a certain spot and let all of the encroaching enemies crash into my Force, for example, and Metal Black has plenty of really stupid bits where some wee bastard will fly right up your arse from out of nowhere, or just drop like a stone, right on top of you. These are clear negatives, but they're also quite easily overlooked/forgiven when taking stock of everything else the games offer. I don't like using nebulous terms like "charm", "heart" and "soul", but clearly these are also massively important considerations. I'll usually put up with a moderate amount of BS from a game that does something artistically interesting.

[Jockel]

a score that looks like a telephone number with an international dialling code!

... starting with two zeros?

[TMR]

a score that looks like a telephone number with an international dialling code!

... starting with two zeros?

Dialling to the UK starts with +44 so if you ignore the plus sign... =-)

(Actually, i was just paraphrasing a quote i've always liked, from Jeff Minter's "Nature of the Beast" newsletter whilst talking about the release of Iridis Alpha on the C64 if memory serves...)

[ZOM]

...and Metal Black has plenty of really stupid bits where some wee bastard will fly right up your arse from out of nowhere, or just drop like a stone, right on top of you. These are clear negatives, but they're also quite easily overlooked/forgiven when taking stock of everything else the games offer...

Not only that, you also have to play the game just once to know that those "cheap moments" are there. Same goes for suddenly appearing lasers; play the game and you know they're there.

[Klatrymadon]

True dat. I love memorisation-heavy games, as long as everything is still possible on your first go.

[Jockel]

a score that looks like a telephone number with an international dialling code!

... starting with two zeros?

Dialling to the UK starts with +44

... which is 0044 if typed out ;D

[Dragoforce]

I don't have a problem with that. Memorizing is a big part in all shmups, basically it's the same thing as practicing certain parts in DDP to perfect chaining. It's not like Metal Black suddenly becomes easy just because you know when the enemies will appear and shoot. There is still a lot of dodging and parts that require good reflexes.

I actually have a hard time understanding the critism against memorisers like R-type, it's not like you can beat Battle Garegga on your first credit just because there are no snipers like in Metal Black. All shmups require practice in one way or the other.

[Keade]

What are the best features you've seen on a shmup?

Out of my head :
- Ikaruga's polarity (because they based the game only on that feature and succeeded, besides even the graphics are tied to it).
- Scoring system that are forgiving (=a tiny mistake won't void the entire run), like Ketsui's and many others
- The laser "combats" in G-Darius and Border Down. That was pretty fun.

What are the worst features?

I don't know, I try not to play bad games, but :
- huge inertia (I did play Project X on my Amiga) / misbalanced ship speed
- I don't think checkpoints is a very good system, they ruin the pacing. Besides many checkpoints shmups also killed 90% of your equipment when you die, which in many cases left you helpless.

What do you like best about shmups in general?

- excellent replay value. The player should be able to improve, a little bit on each run (even if it's just score, it's better).
I love the following quote (I can't remember where I read it) : "in most RPGs, only the character gets better, whereas in shmups, it's the player who gets better".
- a forgiving scoring system (eg. : not forgiving = Dodonpachi, because of the bomb stock bonus and the exponential combo bonus. Forgiving = Ketsui, Ikaruga, and many Psikyo's I believe)

Would elements such as cutscenes, shops, customizable ship appearance, and upgradeable stats improve a shmup or make it less appealing?

- Cutscenes might ruin the pace, but if skippable they're ok. As Bill mentionned, Border Down did a nice job with its cutscenes. I'm a real bitch when it comes to annoying cutscenes or recurring game sequence you can't skip (whatever the game, shmup or RPG / adventure), so I've to agree such cutscenes shouldn't disturb most players. Keep in mind this work is kind of a waste of time, though, because those who plays the game a lot will probably skip them after their firsts run.
Btw Boss deaths can be considered as mini-cutscenes. It's a nice reward I believe most player expect
- Shops might ruin the pace.
- Ship appearence => sure isn't a priority in development, but why not, if you've time to spare. Since most players (but not me) today seem to absolutely need a reward for everything they do, this kind of fancy stuff could be a reward for survival, scoring objectives or whatever.
- Upgradeable stats => probably makes it more appealing to me, but I'd also prefer to always start the game with the same stuff.

How long do you generally spend playing an average shmup?

About 20 hours, maybe.
Like some others here, I consider I haven't beaten the game as long as I haven't one-credited it, so if I really like the game, I can spend as much time is needed to one-credit it.
The most I've spent is 200+ hours on Twinkle Star Sprites, but it's a special case : it's a versus shmup. I also have probably spent about 100h on Dodonpachi. I one credited it, even though my score is highly unsatisfying, but I don't feel like playing it more.

[BIL]

R-Type Delta has quite a few sections in which I normally just park in a certain spot and let all of the encroaching enemies crash into my Force...

I'd thought about that after I posted -- I should've clarified, it's lazy moments like this bit of Thunder Force V I mean. Just sitting in practical invincibility with the fire button held. Annihilating incoming enemies point-blank (eg: Delta, Dangun Feveron, Raiden Fighters Jet) without getting killed yourself is a different story, especially if scoring is involved as in all three.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I dont mind story / cutsences in an arcade game during my first couple of play throughs but it must be eather quickly skippable during play or even better an way to turn em off completly via the options menu. A good idea might be to have a long intro / ending and cutscenes inbetween stages so they dont cut up play.

Shops, inbetween stage upgrades i hate. I much prefer to have many "proper spaceships" that have different firing patterns to choose from at the start of the game the more ships there is the better (as long as each ship has an unique playstyle). If the game is in the classic shmup style or plays slow then i like power ups / gradius bar.

I hate, speed power ups, player ship been too slow to dodge the bullets, lots of cheap deaths, unresponsive or bad controls, check points i tend to be not a fan of, although i can put up with it in a old style horizontal, vertical stg with check points i hate. Bullets that are hard to see i hate since my eyes will get tired quickly, even worse are bullets that seem to pulse like in Zillion Beatz (although i do have alot of fun playing it)

Im someone who likes to play for 1CC what default settings a game is set at is crucial to what challenge ill get out of a game, you could have a really challenging game but have its default settings at very easy, which for the 1cc might wreak the game for me. Although depending on how good the game is i might stick with a shmup or return to it later on and play the harder modes or play solely for score. Genetos is good at this since it doesnt really have a 1cc due to no mode been default and normal difficulty a pushover. Also tell gamers what a 1cc is since many ppl dont know how to play a shmup properlly.

I usually dont mind and sometimes even like noob friendly things like the auto-bomb (autobomb is the best imo) or shield/ multiple hit system, then again many ppl hate shmups like this so put an option to turn it off like in Blue Wish Resurrection but dont have it turned on as default since that would wreak the 1CC for many ppl. Just use the auto bomb etc as a noob friendly training tool.

While i dont mind / even sometimes like cute em ups / loli fests theres way to many of them especially in the doujin scene so to me so a shmup that has metal flying machines is a breath of freash air, (IF not a dragon would be welcome since there hasnt been a dragon shmup in a long time)

Good music / sounds are a must even better if you can match the music to events onscreen. The circle RebRank are good at this, check out Samidare or RefRain. High pitched girly voices i cant bloody stand aka Futari. Or maybe you could do a Zillion Beatz and beat match the bosses bullets to the music.

Online Leaderboards are really fun as there is nothing like a bit of healthy competition for folk to really get into a shmup and take it to its limits. Leaderboards for different modes of play even better. Also a replay feature is a plus.

Dont have all your score mechanics a mistery tell us what they are, In english. And on the theme of scoring dont have it too rigid so that players can only take 1 path to get all the higher scores. Introduce a bit of freedom in your scoring system so that players can play how they want and still achieve good scores. I like No miss score bonuses.

Tate is a plus is suppose. and so are secret features, levels etc.

edit and i bloody really hate any video game that is so easy at the start of the game that its tedius, and a hit box that is easy to see / work out is really helpfull

[emphatic]

IMO, the best games can be played casually AND for score. Look at ESPGALUDA. If you're really good at shmups, you can make it to stage 4 or even 5.1 on your first couple of credits, once you figure out the hitbox. And it will be lots of fun. To score above 40 million though, you have to really work at it, but it will be even more fun.

Also, keep in mind that shmups come from arcades, and aren't a genre "parented" by consoles. So either make one mode that can be played with no reading of manuals, or dialogs popping up and call that "arcade mode" then make a "console mode" as well with whatever YOU think makes your game "special" or whatever.

[TMR]

Also, keep in mind that shmups come from arcades, and aren't a genre "parented" by consoles. So either make one mode that can be played with no reading of manuals, or dialogs popping up and call that "arcade mode" then make a "console mode" as well with whatever YOU think makes your game "special" or whatever.

That's a good idea... in a similar vein, achievements aren't a necessity but if they're added it helps if they're actually achievements rather than "started the game on hard".

[Keade]

Online boards are sure a good thing, but while we are at it, a replay function (a record / playback function, as if you recorded a movie of your current game) never hurts either. It's a shame they're so rare in shmups btw.
It requires a moderate amount of work if it has been planned from the early stages of development, and it can be useful later for debugging.

[dpful]

Examples of PERFECT cut-scenes:
Strider
Giga Wing

NOT the same:
Strider 2
Giga Wing 2

If ANY cut scene isn't skippable, GAME OVER. I can't even play games with unskipable opening credits.

[Obiwanshinobi]

"Austin, Texas" has a nice ring to it (not least thanks to Larry McMurtry). Lucky you.

What are the best features you've seen on a shmup?

Well, I like gallant tunes and beautiful graphics (Ikaruga, Last Resort, Spriggan, In the Hunt, Steel Empire...), cool sound effects and animations (Einhänder), destructive weaponry (Raiden III, Gradius V...), memorable stage design (R-Type series), respectable bosses (Gradius V stage 2 multi-boss), "human" difficulty curve (R-Type III), checkpoints (thanks to them I don't feel bad about creedit feeding), somewhat intangible air of mystery, wonder and craziness (Crying - A Seimei Sensou)...

What are the worst features?

Cheapness (not literally of course). The cheapest (in terms of game design shortcomings) game I keep playing nonetheless is Steel Empire.

What do you like best about shmups in general?

To begin with, I like magic moments like when I discovered what Type 2 multiple laser in Gradius V is all about (another example taken from slightly different genre wolud be the machine gun levelled up to 3 in Cave Story). Such things can turn a decent game into excellent one. Must be fun to perform, though. Having at least one such a trick up your sleeve, you're on your way to make a classic.
Moreover, I like to feel like I'm exploring a world of sorts whilst playing a shmup. Cave shmups (except for Progear and Guwange, as far as I can tell) fail to deliver this feeling. Even the mighty Dangun Feveron is a very "abstract" shooter in my experience (in all fairness, it's just too fast to take in the scenery and appreciate all the details).
Last but not least, I like "freestyley" games. It's fun to do things as I please rather than as the developer too obviously intended.

Would elements such as cutscenes, shops, customizable ship appearance, and upgradeable stats improve a shmup or make it less appealing?

No need for those. I.e. you don't need to "improve" the genre by implementing such features. What you need is to SUGGEST a story and to depict a world convincingly enough to create the illusion of something bigger going behind the scene. Our imagination will do the rest.
As for fiddling with options in pause menu - the less of it the better.

How long do you generally spend playing an average shmup?

I can't say I'm done with ANY shmup I've played "seriously" (for example, Gradius V save says 35 hours or so, and I'm not even half way into the 1cc on normal).

[TrevHead (TVR)]

The time i spend with a shmup depends on how long ill take to 1CCing it

Atm each shmup i try to 1cc i will spend usually 2 to 4 weeks playing. I havnt completed any "hard" shmups yet so i can expect to be spending longer with it.

[shadowbringer]

What are the best features you've seen on a shmup?

- I'm afraid I can't answer this question, since there are many gameplay features that the players enjoy, but simply implementing them in your game (as they are in their original games) may give a "more of the same" feel. (however you may use them for inspiration, modify them, or try something new.. which I think it's difficult)

What are the worst features?

- having to collect point items when they're shining, for maximum value. In Strikers 1945 II, for example, sometimes point items can get you killed >_< (and they're not much rewarding, either, but failing to get their maximum value is frustrating. And there's many of them.)
- graze-based scoring. Wtf I lost that life needlessly?! *restarts the game or quits playing for a while* (one exception being Shikigami no Shiro 3, since you don't have to graze as much different bullets as possible, just stick near them while firing)
- enemies with dead angles. These can work in your favor, or against you, since if you try to dodge their aimed shots, you may actually be entering their firing range (example: some planes in Varth :p). Not sure about enemies that fire at you when they're close to you.
- enemies/shots that are difficult to see. (I don't have problems with animated bullets, though I hear that some people have. I also hear that some players are colorblind, so you may want to show your game to them and modify it as needed.)

What do you like best about shmups in general?

- being able to feel pressured (however, think of the difficulty curve, and how to not make the first stages uninteresting)
- being able to feel rewarded for scoring well (though you may want to add intermediate-level scoring mechanics, for those who currently can't perform the most advanced scoring gimmicks)
- feeling exercised (notice how different games/mechanics exercise you in varying aspects/virtues: reflexes, anticipation, memorization, control over the game, mental toughness)

Would elements such as cutscenes, shops, customizable ship appearance, and upgradeable stats improve a shmup or make it less appealing?

- cutscenes should be optional, imho, in that they can be interrupted by the player
- shops: I've seen games with these, or something similar to them (Area 88/U.N. Squadron, Carrier Air Wing, Battle Mania and Battle Mania Daiginjou, and more recently, Winds of Thunder), hard to predict if scoring would work well on games with shops.
- customizable ship appearance: personally I don't mind it.
- stats: you may want to have a system where, if the player chooses to be defensive, he/she limits his/her scoring potential. I'm not sure about shops before each stage vs. power-ups/power-downs during stages. (however, like it was said before, think of the people who will be replaying the game and would've forced to buy some necessary/important power-ups/items, only to have their run ruined, somehow, and restart the game and pass through these shops again)

How long do you generally spend playing an average shmup?

I think that I play them in sessions of 30 minutes (with restarts); more if I get to do well on them, however I haven't thought of how long are the games I play..

[Spiderift]

What are the best features you've seen on a shmup?

I like gameplay mechanics that encourage you to graze. I haven't had the opportunity to play many games of that sort. Exceed 3rd had a nice little mechanic where grazing fills up your special attack that fires homing lasers at all enemies on-screen. Wasn't really core, but still pretty neat.

What are the worst features?

Boring level design.
Unnecessarily complicated scoring system.
Unnecessarily complicated weapon system.
Too many shinies (bloom effect+particle effects).
Poorly thought out difficulty curve (either too easy or too unfair).
I'm probably forgetting to mention a lot more.

What do you like best about shmups in general?

Sheer bad-assery. Also, it's nice to have a short, challenging game once in a while.

Would elements such as cutscenes, shops, customizable ship appearance, and upgradeable stats improve a shmup or make it less appealing?

Cutscenes - Only if whoever wrote the story actually made some effort. If it's a cutscene just for the sake of having a cutscene, forget it. Regardless, it should be skippable.
Shops/Upgrades - If the game is built around this carefully, yeah. Tyrian was pretty fun.
Customizable ship appearance - Kinda doubt this has any demand whatsoever in this genre. I can understand if this was an RPG where you'd invest hours and hours into your character... For shmups, you're not really investing hours into building your character, only into practising.

How long do you generally spend playing an average shmup?

Maybe half an hour to an hour a session? Amount of sessions varying depending on free time and urge to be bad-ass.

[sjewkestheloon]

I want tight design with no lulls, no intro sections, no first stage popcorn sections (Biohazard Battle, TriggerHeart Exelica), no extraneous extras or options unless they are presented as a completely seperate game mode from the core arcade experience. I want a game that is fun to play for survival and interesting enough to then play for score later on. I don't like games that make scoring essential from the word go, and I want a scoring system that makes gameplay more risky to keep the challenge increasing and to offer me something to focus on when playing the first stage for the millionth time.

I will play a good shmup for many many hours one credit at a time for as long as they remain compelling. I really can't be doing with cutscenes or anything that adds time to the beginning of stages. I play a lot of RPGs and action games and will get my story fixes from those thanks.

Also please don't make 100 levels with save points and flabby gameplay, five levels at about 30-50 minutes is plenty as long as the challenge is constant.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I like my shmups to be pritty short at just 5 or 6 stages any more then 7 and it starts to be a grind unless the stage length is short.
Genrally i lke my shmups to be short but have bags of replayablity due to harder difficulty levels, accel modes, different player ships etc.

A great idea that Darius uses (apart from fish) is to have multiple paths with lots of different stages with some paths harder to play then others.

[orange]

A great idea that Darius uses (apart from fish) is to have multiple paths with lots of different stages with some paths harder to play then others.

[Ravicious]

Okay so I'll do the math so far...

RPG elements = No
Customizable features = No
Anything that will interrupt the game = No
Replay value = Yes
Visuals = Yes
Unique scoring system = Yes
Point objects = No
Checkpoints = No
Big bosses = Yes
A game that caters to the skill of the player, not the character = Yes
Lolipedophilia crapola no one wants to see = Yes (just kidding)


It seems there are a variety of hardcore players and casual ones as well. Maybe 1 out of 20 hardcore players, there is a casual player. Very interesting.

With that answered (but not closed for discussion) I have another wave of questions to ask.


How would you feel about a combo system?

How would you feel about combo scoring?

What about bullet accuracy scores?

What about a mobile shield in all playable characters that deflects bullets while the player shoots as a temporary defense?

Would secret unlockables help keep the game fresh or would you rather not look for them?

Level select... should it be progressively unlocked or locked until the end of the game?

Time bonus... getting a bonus added for how quickly you finish the stage... would that be innovative if not, interesting?

Would maps, tiers or alternate paths help or hurt the game?

Would it help if a player had hitpoints or should the player have a 1-hit you're dead life bar?

[Voxbox]

What are the best features you've seen on a shmup?

The racing concept in Kingdom Grandprix
Stage selection (Darius and KG again)
Consistent, awesome, theme (Fish!)
Boss dismantling (for both scoring and survival)

What are the worst features?

Checkpoints, getting seriously underpowered after dying once, and ofcourse most things euroshmup.

What do you like best about shmups in general?

Fast paced action. Competing with highscores.

Nobody cares about storytelling in a shmup.

B-but I do!

I think dialoge with bosses, and some sort of storytelling between levels can really add to the experience. Touhou, Giga Wing, Sonic Wings and Gunbird comes to mind. If it's kept brief and well done that is. Just some cheezy stills between levels, in some sort of fighting game like fashion, could really help give a game character. Maybe skip the dialoge and just insert a picture after/during the stage completion screen, showing the R-9/Vic Viper/whatever entering a corridor or swooshing over some landscape, along with some iconic "We are now rushing into zone X" or ""I never thought I'd be frying over a jungle." phrase.
Of course skipability is a must, but you shouldn't want to.

As for memorizing, I like it best when it's more for score and less for survival. Batrider/RFJ are fantastic when it comes to that. Batrider have one of the best first stages ever because of it.

As for scoring in general, I want the scoring system technical rather than difficult, not forcing you to choose between scoring and survival. I want to be able to work towards my score and clear at the same time, without feeling one hinders the other. I wanna use those bombs!

Oh, and 2 player mode is seriously under used. Most likely because you usually get bad scores(?). Someone should definitly work around that, as 2 player modes could redefine the concept of having teams in competitions like STGT.

[Rob]

Would elements such as cutscenes, shops, customizable ship appearance, and upgradeable stats improve a shmup or make it less appealing?

More appealing to dumbasses, less appealing to people who actually play shmups.

Shop upgrades aren't a bad thing. Capcom made good with shops. Winds of Thunder copied Capcom making good with shops. It's like you people don't like Fantasy Zone. I can't think of a game that it made worse. I would rather have had a shop in Mars Matrix than exp = power-up. Buy an extra life with the exp or power upgrade? I'll take the extra life since I'm primarily using mosquito and piercing cannon.

I love the intro cutscene/attract sequence/whatever in some games, but unless you're Squaresoft you should focus entirely on everything else.

[TMR]

How would you feel about a combo system?

Depends how it's done, but they've worked pretty well in the past.

How would you feel about combo scoring?

As above; theoretically workable but it'll be down to the execution in the long run. Any system needs to be a little forgiving of errors though, as someone already pointed out.

What about bullet accuracy scores?

Depends how many bullets are being fired, if it's a shotfest then no simply because those scores are going to be depressing! Shooting down percentages are a different matter, they work fairly well as long as there's enough stuff around to make it hard but not impossible to hit the 100% mark.

What about a mobile shield in all playable characters that deflects bullets while the player shoots as a temporary defense?

Hmm... maybe, again depending on execution; something that saves the player too often is as bad as an energy bar to my mind.

Would secret unlockables help keep the game fresh or would you rather not look for them?

Unlockables are okay i s'pose, although it depends on what they are and how they're unlocked i think - my comment previously about achievements applies here too, i think.

Level select... should it be progressively unlocked or locked until the end of the game?

i'd say allow practise on a previously completed level, but i'll be the first to admit that i rarely use 'em personally.

Time bonus... getting a bonus added for how quickly you finish the stage... would that be innovative if not, interesting?

Not innovative i'm afraid, Genetos times the stage and boss battle, Ikaruga the boss and so on... they're a good idea, especially if there's risky ways to dispose of the boss quicker to rack the score up.

Would maps, tiers or alternate paths help or hurt the game?

As long as they're done with a light touch they can help; the Darius example is a good one, at the end of each stage (or during it on the later iterations) the game offers a way to select which branch you're going to take and gives a couple of seconds to choose before heading off. More complex maps are less easy to execute well and stand far more chance of shoving a spanner into the works.

Would it help if a player had hitpoints or should the player have a 1-hit you're dead life bar?

Lifebar no, see "Euroshmup" for further reference.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Checkpoints = No

Wait, wait, wait, WAIT!!!
Make it optional. "Continue mode: instant respawn/checkpoints" - see? It's that easy. Also, make sure to give the player a chance to power up a ship after each checkpoint. Sexy Parodius and R-Type Delta do this sort of thing right. Don't be lazy. A "home" shmup should offer the player possibility to work on a particular bit without necessity to replay the earlier stages he (or she) has already mastered to death. You can do this either via practice mode ("Score Attack" in Raiden III works a treat) or via checkpoints. Instant respawn only gives you the possibility to credit feed a game (no skills required), which is merely a guilty pleasure and leads to sort of hangover. As soon as I unlocked free play in Gradius V, I credit feeded it to the very end. After that, rebuilding my enthusiasm towards the game took me quite a while.

[Voxbox]

How would you feel about a combo system?

Ikaruga and DoDonPachi comes to mind. Isn't it sort of an all or nothing scoring mechanic? That's a turnoff, but as long as you can enjoy the game without it's fine with me I guess.

How would you feel about combo scoring?

Wait, what else would you get out of combos?

What about bullet accuracy scores?

Noo. In games like Garegga where firing increases your rank, you still fire constantly because that's how shmups are played

Would secret unlockables help keep the game fresh or would you rather not look for them?

I think it would help if it's nothing too hard. Always better than inputting som sort of Konami code at startup.

Level select... should it be progressively unlocked or locked until the end of the game?

Progressivly. Either to the stages you've beaten, or stages you've reached depending how challenging you want to be. I'd take less challenge though

Time bonus... getting a bonus added for how quickly you finish the stage... would that be innovative if not, interesting?

I like it (at lest the boss part). Couple it with point-blanking bosses and dismantling, and man you've got a stew going. Speed milking!

Would it help if a player had hitpoints or should the player have a 1-hit you're dead life bar?

Lifebar no. It's surprising that the Darius games manage to pull their shield system off though. Cho Ren Sha style one hit shield wouldn't be totally wrong.

[Keade]

How would you feel about a combo system?

Ikaruga and DoDonPachi comes to mind. Isn't it sort of an all or nothing scoring mechanic? That's a turnoff, but as long as you can enjoy the game without it's fine with me I guess.

It depends, Ikaruga's system isn't very severe since max chain is 9. An error will only hurt your score moderately and is quickly repaired.
Dodonpachi, on the other hand, is not forgiving at all :
- the combo coefficient calculation uses an exponential or something like that
- the bomb bonus can litteraly multiply your score by 2 or 3 I believe. So one death (or even a bomb !) = you're screwed

[orange]

yeah aside from ikaruga being hideously unfun i like how forgiving it is with the chaining

[Mortificator]

Einhänder is a perfect example of how to not do a shmup. I fell a sleep while alone thinking of this game. Even Gradius V is more interesting...