XRGB-3

[evil_ash_xero]

I have a Euro Saturn SCART cable. I've read that I need to get an adapter to make it into a J SCART. What exactly am I looking for?

[Fudoh]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/_W0QQitemZ160390096561

[akumajo]

It is on Wiki .

[RGB32E]

on my White Saturn, S-Video cable = RGB cable (same quality)

While I can't argue what you perceive, it is a misguided conclusion to say that S-Video gives the "same quality" as RGB. I noticed you mentioned on the Wiki that the SNES' S-Video looks the same quality as RGB... this is flat out FALSE. I've used S-Video for years on my old XBR100 (Super Trinitron CRT), and while S-Video can look "good", it never approaches RGB. I've seen other people state (Lawrence from NFG/GamesX that they preferred S-Video on a crappy JVC TV over RGB. I guess if you have a really crappy RGB monitor, and a system that needs extra attention for RGB, you might come to the same conclusion. ...Ick... it's just completely wrong to draw equivalence statements between S-Video and RGB!

Note 2 : I noticed that with some consoles, S-Video is as good as SCART RGB (ex : Super Nes / Saturn)

This opinion makes me cringe, as it is completely false! I guess I could go change that...

[akumajo]

let's do an easy test :
* we choose a testing console (saturn, super nes..)
* we choose a game (same if possible)
* we take pictures with RGB/SVIDEO
* we upload here

the world will judge
end of urban legends ?

[RGB32E]

let's do an easy test :
* we choose a testing console (saturn, super nes..)
* we choose a game (same if possible)
* we take pictures with RGB/SVIDEO
* we upload here

the world will judge
end of urban legends ?

I've already done that comparing component to RGB using a MVS w/Fatal Fury special. People guessed which was component and which was RGB. By the limited "votes" it was a split.... However, I was using a FC-14 to do the component conversion and not a PoS Jrok or NeoBitz encoder/transcoder.

urban lengends only end when forgotten!

Does the PCinP allow for screen capture to a PC?

Since it seems that you almost exclusively use B1 mode, I could see how that might affect the difference.

[RGB32E]

but note that the japanese Scart layout on gamesx.com has the Left and Right audio channels exchanged with each other....

The page has been updated!
http://www.gamesx.com/avpinouts/rgb21pinj.htm

[akumajo]

let's do an easy test :
* we choose a testing console (saturn, super nes..)
* we choose a game (same if possible)
* we take pictures with RGB/SVIDEO
* we upload here

the world will judge
end of urban legends ?

I've already done that comparing component to RGB using a MVS w/Fatal Fury special. People guessed which was component and which was RGB. By the limited "votes" it was a split.... However, I was using a FC-14 to do the component conversion and not a PoS Jrok or NeoBitz encoder/transcoder.

urban lengends only end when forgotten!

Does the PCinP allow for screen capture to a PC?

Since it seems that you almost exclusively use B1 mode, I could see how that might affect the difference.

link please

[Fudoh]

Does the PCinP allow for screen capture to a PC?

no, an overlay area is created on which then the console's picture displayed. You never route any signal into the PC.

[RGB32E]

let's do an easy test :
* we choose a testing console (saturn, super nes..)
* we choose a game (same if possible)
* we take pictures with RGB/SVIDEO
* we upload here

the world will judge
end of urban legends ?

I've already done that comparing component to RGB using a MVS w/Fatal Fury special. People guessed which was component and which was RGB. By the limited "votes" it was a split.... However, I was using a FC-14 to do the component conversion and not a PoS Jrok or NeoBitz encoder/transcoder.

urban lengends only end when forgotten!

Does the PCinP allow for screen capture to a PC?

Since it seems that you almost exclusively use B1 mode, I could see how that might affect the difference.

link please

S-Video VS. RGB
Using official cables for both video signals, connected to XRGB appropriately (LPF off for both YC and RGB, A/D levels both set to 156, and basic picture settings left at default).




and link (component vs. RGB):
http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showpost. ... stcount=29

[akumajo]

thanks, i will try to compare later

which camera are you using ?

[RGB32E]

thanks, i will try to compare later

which camera are you using ?

It shouldn't take much effort to distinguish the inherent limitations of S-Video.... color bleed, color shift, lower picture definition, ect... RGB vs. S-Video shouldn't even be a topic for discussion - despite the differences in quality between different consoles and their revisions.

Pictures were taken with a DSi (horrible), yet the illustration is still valid.

[Konsolkongen]

The buttons on the remote that center around the PCinP on/off button control the horizontal and vertical positioning of the PCinP window as well as the size. The four round buttons in the 4 corners will display the window in the corresponding areas of the screen (upper left, lower left, upper right, lower right). The left/right arrows control the horizontal position and the up down ones control the vertical position. The 小 button decreases the size of the window while the 大 button increases the size.

Since Sabishi Hito already has explained the buttons on the remote i don't see much point in testing my XRGB-3 on my computer tonight It works exactly like he describes and if Picture in Picture is your thing then it works extremely well. I've previously tested this using two slightly different setups.

First try was connecting my desktop PC's HDMI-out to the XRGB's DVI-in and DVI from the XRGB-3 to my desktop monitor. Monitor is a Samsung SyncMaster 2233BW with a native resolution of 1680x1050. When booting the PC the image was sent through the XRGB-3 nicely and resolution was still a 1:1 1680x1050.

Second try i connected the PC and XRGB with DVI cables and connected the XRGB to my 1080p tv with DVI to HDMI. Computer running (at the time) Ubuntu Linux 8.10 64-bit instantly switched resolutions to 1080p which was very nice, no changing the xorg.conf here - But i guess it all really depends on your GFX card, cables and screen used. Picture was strangely shifted 1½-2cm to the right though and overall PQ was affected a bit too in this resolution :/ Rebooting the PC/XRGB and resetting the screens settings to default didn't change anything but it's very possible that this has been fixed with the new 2.12 firmware, i can't really confirm this as i don't have a DVI to HDMI cable anymore so my setup would include a VGA cable instead.

Sabishii Hito has already described nicely what the buttons on the remote do when using your XRGB-3 this way. The interesting thing however is the key differences between the PCinP and WINinP modes.

The PCinP feature can be activated using the middle button appropriately called "PCinP" and is pretty much your average tv's Picture and Picture setting. The picture frame can be moved around and resized to your liking. The picture is shown on top of your PC's image so there is no way to capture screens or movies from your console. The good thing about this mode is that i can be used no matter what you are doing on your computer (as long as the computer is ON), be that games, DOS, videos etc.

The WINinP feature uses the software of the same name and is basically a window with a pink background that the XRGB recognizes and places your consoles output on top. Unfortunately again this is happening in a different layer so capturing screens and so on can't be done in this mode either. The VERY cool thing is that you can move this window around with your mouse cursor, but of course also requires you to be at your OS's desktop at all times. You can freely resize the picture of the window or use different preset resolutions and aspect ratios. The WINinP software is available for all platforms but keep in mind that Java is required for OS's other than Windows. Of course you could probably just paint a pink square (HTML: ff00ff) in any paint program but using this software is a lot easier and has some nice features.

Here is a screenshot showing what the WINinP software looks like when opened and in 320x240 resolution:


And here is an emulated screenshot of what the WINinP feature would look like when using a MegaDrive and Sonic 3:


I can't translate the menus in the WINinP software but they were all pretty easy to figure out. Here is what they do:

Code: Select all

Window ->
Aspect (windowed) ->
Help ->
Preferences
Close

1 (Window):
Resolution ->
Preset 1 - Presets remembers resolutions and position of the window. Settings are saved in Preferences
Preset 2
Preset 3
?
Info

1.1 (Window -> Resolution):
Full Screen (Stretched)
Full Screen (4:3)
Full Screen (16:9)
320
640
800
1024
1280
1440

2 (Aspect):
4:3
16:9

3 (Help):
Help
About

Using any of these Picture in Picture functions will only work in B0 mode, scanlines is not possible.

Hope this will be of some help Akumajo

[akumajo]

@RGB32E : i just want to see it by myself thats all, my Scientist side lol
@Konsolkongen : thx, i will update wiki (or anyone who feel like to :p)

[RGB32E]

@RGB32E : i just want to see it by myself thats all, my Scientist side lol

Ok, just letting you know that you stated something that is completely false. Since you've already stated that S-Video looks the same as RGB, do you need to check again to tell the difference (this time with no one around)? The additional statements just seem like something to save face? Ugg... this is about as bad as believing that the SNES can only display up to 256 colors at the same time!

Do all of the other posters on this thread think S-Video looks as good as RGB?

[KBZ]

I was using a FC-14 to do the component conversion and not a PoS Jrok or NeoBitz encoder/transcoder.

what's wrong with using a jrok or neobitz for component?

[Artemio]

Do all of the other posters on this thread think S-Video looks as good as RGB?

I don't. But from a pure technical stand point it is a mute point. S-video has modulation, even if lower than composite it is still there and needs demodulation which isn't perfect. At the very least, color will always be superior in RGB.

[Fudoh]

Do all of the other posters on this thread think S-Video looks as good as RGB?

living in a Scart-Country I've been using RGB since around 1988 when I first got my PC Engine. I was surprised how close your two screenshots actually look and don't think they do the jump in clarity for RGB justice. The only time I've actually used S-Video over RGB was from my first DVD player, but that's just because the sharper edges of the S-Video pic tend to help on Video concent. On graphics RGB are a must, possibly with the exception of the N64. The slightly sharper (through "false sharpness") S-Video output wasn't too bad on the otherwise extremely soft and blurry graphics the system offered.

I can actually understand why some people prefer S-Video, but those people usually pump up the sharpness controls on TV sets as well because they misinterpretate the Edge Enhancement done by that (or actually in the S-Video signal) as "real" sharpness. On the XRGB it's similar. If you move up the sharpness to 10 or higher S-Video and RGB actually become very similar, since the picture is ridden with false contures all over anyway.

I have my limits though as well. On your comparison shots between component and RGB on the NG board I can't spot a difference, or at least can't spot one that would justify one over the other. I also don't mind using the LPF on 240p signals on the XRGB and I don't like the B0 mode because it's too sharp. I don't like playing PS1 games on a PS3 either, but I prefer the CRT'ish look of the B1 and the slightly less sharp scaling of my TV set. In the end it's all a matter of personal taste, which - of course - doesn't change the fact that RGB is always better than S-Video.

[akumajo]

@RGB32E : i just want to see it by myself thats all, my Scientist side lol

Ok, just letting you know that you stated something that is completely false. Since you've already stated that S-Video looks the same as RGB, do you need to check again to tell the difference (this time with no one around)? The additional statements just seem like something to save face? Ugg... this is about as bad as believing that the SNES can only display up to 256 colors at the same time!

Do all of the other posters on this thread think S-Video looks as good as RGB?

ok, let me clear the situation
1) i already did some test in the past with Super Nes and Saturn and picture looked the same
2) i just want to retest + post proofs as you did so everyone can see, if i'm wrong I will accept without problem

The additional statements just seem like something to save face

i'm not here to say that you are wrong or anything , just a player who wants to share his experience, what is important to me (and to all gamers) is to have the best gaming experience, i dont need to save anything, oh wait, maybe my money

For sure, something is special with Saturn video signal (check segakore board).

[RGB32E]

what's wrong with using a jrok or neobitz for component?

It causes people who use them to say that S-Video looks better than Component :

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showpost. ... ostcount=2

IMO I think Svideo looks better than Component, especially on my TV anyway, for some reason when I make a fire shot in Metal Slug my LCD TV screen flashes white, but I never get this issue with SVideo.

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showpost. ... stcount=11

If you haven't seen a Neo output both S-video and component please stop your comparisions. I have seen it output both many many many many times.

Technically YES there should be a big difference but visually there isn't between the two via THE NEO.

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showpost. ... stcount=13

As a previous owner of 2 Neobitz modded AES systems and 1 Neobitz modded MV1-FZ system, I can honestly say that Xian Xi is right. S-Video is better in the case of the Neo, the colors are too bright and oversaturated when running component... especially the red channel I've noticed.

Misguided experiences warp reality... the combination of displays and poor quality converters was how the "Gurus" over at the NGFs declared that encoding RGB to S-Video was a better solution than transcoding RGB to Component (using Jrok and NB)! They've never used a high quality RGB to component transcoder, so I can see why they'd say that.

[akumajo]

@RGB32E nice to see that you joined wiki

[Strider77]

On the saturn RGB topic a bit back..... I have a round button saturn (US system) and have noticed no jailbars on my TV. I can get away with not using the LPF and it looks fine or pretty much the same for the saturn.

Granted I am using a SONY HD CRT and I think all of the rest of you are using flat panel display devices? So CRT's might be a bit more kind on the XRGB3's picture output. But I deffinately need that LPF on when using mu duo rx (I get a bit of jail baring also on the duo rx).... I haven't noticed a huge need for the rest of my console/PCBs.

On a side note I modded my DC VGA box with a switch to either output RGB/low-rez or VGA/hi-rez last night. Combined with an XRGB3 it makes things so much tidier and easy as far as the DC goes. One cable for both and no need for switching. I do get some screen noise on the DC's VGA picture right now (mostly noticeable on when the screen is displaying almost all white like the start up screen for the DC). It may be the VGA cable... and the fact it's near a lot power plugs. If I remember right I had to use the LPF on the RGB/low-res signal from the VGA box. Otherwise I got some screen noise at the very top and bottom of the picture.

Fudah.... do you use the front "game in" port for most of your older RGB consoles?

Maybe we should always note what input we are using when mentioning results or issues and comparisons like the Saturn RGB variations. I assume all are using the 21 pin RGB port regarding the saturn though.

Is anyone else using a DC hooked up to the XRGB3's VGA port on the back getting screen noise? Like I said most the time in game I don't notice it for high res... but I see it clear as day on the start up screen with the DC logo ect. It may be my VGA cable or something.

I am curious as to others' opinion on the different ports on the XRGB3's varying in quality.

[Konsolkongen]

Maybe we should always note what input we are using when mentioning results or issues and comparisons like the Saturn RGB variations. I assume all are using the 21 pin RGB port regarding the saturn though.

Yes.
MegaDrive 2: Permanently connected to the D2 input and has a LM1881 chip in the cable to prevent blackouts. I can use LPF OFF but there is a little noise in the signal, nothing noticeable from a distance though.
Saturn: Front RGB with the 220uF setting on to prevent blackouts. I have to use the LPF setting, otherwise i get horrible jailbars and flickering. Maybe because of the original SEGA cable like RGB32E mentioned. Picture is even worse when connected to the D2 input, but i haven't tried the D2 input without LPF yet. Don't assume that will make it any better though
SNES: Using the front input still with 220uF since i don't bother to change twenty options when switching consoles. Haven't tried without LPF yet as i don't use my Nintendo consoles that much. I assume the picture will look very bad as the picture itself is incredible soft and has some very light black shadows here and there. Granted i am using a very cheap modified GameCube cable for this console, but i like it's purple color
Dreamcast: Front input, 220uF. Only using my Dreamcast with the XRGB-3 for 240p and 480i processing for those few games that won't run in VGA. And if i remember correctly the only 240p game i have without VGA is Bangai-O :p Picture looked very good but i haven't tried without LPF yet. I should also try 480i with and without LPF for this system, as i have a few games that won't be forced into VGA with the DC-X boot loader. Using the original SEGA RGB cable btw.
PS2: D1 input. This is the only console that i have hooked up with Component cables. LPF setting needs to be ON at all times as the PS2's signal is so bad, and there is noticeable flickering even with the LPF ON and games running in 240p. Have also tried with original Sony PS3 component cable and a shitty 3rd party RGB cable without any shielding whatso ever Some of you say that using a RGB cable with the front input but keeping the PS2's output setting at YPrPb the picture will be improved a little. I will have to hunt down an original Sony cable for this

I keep the AFC setting at automatic when possible. MegaDrive is probably the only console where i gain something when setting this option to manual.

Is anyone else using a DC hooked up to the XRGB3's VGA port on the back getting screen noise? Like I said most the time in game I don't notice it for high res... but I see it clear as day on the start up screen with the DC logo ect. It may be my VGA cable or something.

I tried hooking the DC up to the D2 input a few weeks ago to see how well it could handle VGA. 480p from the PS2 has always looked very bad IMO because of all the flickering i get :/ Anyway the VGA passthrough in B1 mode was pretty good. There was no flickering but there was a bit of noise very similar to what i experience with my MegaDrive on the D2 input as well. It could be that the D2 input is bad or that the LM1881 chip in my MD causes the flickering (Artemio has already proven this to be a fact when using CPS2 games, but it might be different with MD) it could also be that the XRGB-3 doesn't handle 480p very well from any source and just add a little noise to the signal.
Anyway i think i got the same result as you did. I'm using an original SEGA VGA box and when playing it will hardly be noticed. Hope that helps

[em0ti0n]

Saturn - white japanese Saturn, 3rd party japanese standard RGB scart cable http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/AS ... d=RnxLApUR, LPF has to be ON otherwise jailbars are present, then the picture is awesome, rock solid, no noise & etc.

PS2 slim - PS2 set YUV - XCM component cable (240p A/D=192, LPF ON but noise is still present , (PS3) Monster component - like XCM but adds more noise (weird but true), PS2 set RGB - japanese RGB SCART (official Sony SCPH-1050) - 240p looks awesome!! LPF is ON, A/D=255 (default)

DC - VGA box http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2ufyc0j&s=6, signal is routed though XRGB3's back VGA port, LPF OFF (LPF ON=blurry picture), no problems whatsoever

Sharpness = 0 (default = 7) for all consoles, more natural and softer picture in my opinion

I use XRGB3 only in B1 for 240p signals since 480i/480p is processed directly by Optoma HD3000. Where no-lag becomes a matter life or death (shumps!) XRGB3 is connected to Dell 17" CRT monitor (Trinitron screen, TATEing no problem).

[Strider77]

PS2 slim - PS2 set YUV - XCM component cable (240p A/D=192, LPF ON but noise is still present

interesting... I am using the D terminal input in the back of the XRGB3 along with the provided component > d terminal adapter with a official sony component cable on my PS2 (fat "TEST" model PS2) and I get what I'd call a perfect picture..... 240p is spot on without LPF set to on.

I was playing earthworm jim 2 on the saturn (USA round button) tonight and I did notice without the LPF on there was some mild screen noise going on. I had to look for it but could see it on screens of sold color easier.

Side note.... what is recommended for the AD level as far as PS2 via D terminal is concerned?

[Fudoh]

I am using the D terminal input in the back of the XRGB3 along with the provided component....

which one, the one shared with VGA on the back right or the one to the left ?

Side note.... what is recommended for the AD level as far as PS2 via D terminal is concerned?

I think I have it set to 179 for 15khz signals (240p/480i).

[Konsolkongen]

I don't see any difference in quality of the three D-terminal inputs.

[Fudoh]

I don't see any difference in quality of the three D-terminal inputs.

really ? heavy difference on my side when it comes to sensibility to video noise. With a 480p connection from a PS2 via YUV it's quite obvious on my setup...

[em0ti0n]

really ? heavy difference on my side when it comes to sensibility to video noise. With a 480p connection from a PS2 via YUV it's quite obvious on my setup...

Agree. It is clearly visible on 480p signal from PS2 (YUV to D-terminal adapter) and 480p Gamecube (YUV to D-terminal adapter or D-terminal cable).
So far D1 is the best quality, D2 is the worst and D3 lies somewhere between on my setup.

[Fudoh]

Remind me: D2 is the shared D/VGA input, right ?