VGA monitors and games

[evil_ash_xero]

OK, I don't know shit about this, but i'm wondering....

I know that 360 has a VGA cord..I also know there are adapters for the PS2 and other systems.

Are all PC Monitors VGA or SVGA?

Also, will this result in actual lag free gaming(as I hate LCD and Plasma lag)?

Thanks. Sorry for the dimness on the subject.

[Fudoh]

I assume by PC monitor you mean TFT/LCD.

I know that 360 has a VGA cord..I also know there are adapters for the PS2 and other systems.

while some systems like the 360 or the DC have native VGA, the "adapters" (actually converters) for the PS2 are upscalers which introduce lag by their own.

Are all PC Monitors VGA or SVGA?

yes, they are. VGA is just a name for a connection nowadays (15pin Din).

Also, will this result in actual lag free gaming(as I hate LCD and Plasma lag)?

no, not in general. As said in the other thread, you can use VGA to minimze the lag of a display, but can't get below that. Especially with PC monitors it gets hard. In order to reduce the reaction time to low numbers like 2-4ms manufacturers started to use something called overdrive. On the other hand overdrive can introduce an input lag of 1-3 frames (15-50ms). If shopping for a PC monitor, it's very important to take this into account. There are only very monitors out there which are basically lag-free and unfortunately most of them are TN displays which are shitty for Tate-playing (rotating).

[neorichieb1971]

I think this lag talk is a bit exaggerated. I've used many converters and screens and the only time lag has really pissed me off is during PS1/2 games on the PS3 using emulation, bluetooth controllers and a LCD HDTV. Other than that i've not really been disappointed in any configuration.


PS2 > HDBOXpro > VGA monitor on cabinet - Good
PS2 > XRGB2 > HDTV (5ms) - Good

The problem with VGA monitors is that when you ask about them too many variables start getting thrown about like - line doubling is bad, lag is bad, PQ is bad... Why not just tell people what is good or tell them its not for them?

What you should really be saying is something like - Well its never going to be as good as a CRT but this configuration is the best you can get! blah blah blah.

[Fudoh]

I think this lag talk is a bit exaggerated

it completely is, of course. I don't mind anything in the 2-frame area. But given that newer HDTVs introduce lag of up to 120ms, it's at least something you should watch out for before buying...

Buying a lag-free or near lag-free monitor or TV gives you more freedom when buying a deinterlacer or scaler. If your TV has no lag, you can easily go ahead and buy a processor which adds 2-frames processing time, but if your TV already lags 3-frames, you will want to look out for a lag-free processor.

Well its never going to be as good as a CRT but this configuration is the best you can get

I would disagree here. With a lag-free HDTV and a XRGB-3, gaming on a large LCD easily exceeds gaming on an old CRT. In quality and size.

[neorichieb1971]

I'm not saying an LCD configuration will beat a CRT, i'm just saying that you could offer a solution which gives the best results using a LCD TV.

So if money is no object, what would be your best LCD/VGA set up?

My TV was reviewed as not having a game mode because it didn't need one because Sony made sure it was fast enough already.

KDL40W4500.

Although I have heard Panasonic are not that great in the lag dept. I guess it just depends on what sort of money you have got and what reviews you read before you take the plunge. Most people just don't take these things into consideration, often taking the lowest priced TV thinking it looks just as good as the more expensive ones.

For myself -

Blacks are very important.
Internal scaling is becoming a moot point for TV for myself, but people still need it
1:1 pixel mapping is paramount for me
Lag is important, but its just a case of reading reviews to eliminate the bad offenders.

But you know what, after buying my TV, I never even realized my TV didn't have a svideo socket, just took it for granted it would have one

[Fudoh]

So if money is no object, what would be your best LCD/VGA set up?

currently a bit hard to tell. The best Sony Gaming TVs have been the X3500 (XBR5) and (supposedly) the Z4500. The X3500 is practically lag-free (meaning under 10ms) with VGA or native HDMI in gamemode. That's my display. On my desktop I use three Nec LCD2180 UX displays which are completely lagfree. Your W4500 has a lag of 24ms in HDMI mode, which are 1.5 frames. If you add a PS3 with another 1.5 frames delay on PS2 gaming you're at 3 frames, which you can certainly feel already.

When buying a PC display for gaming nowadays one should get a IPS display, either 26" from HP or 23" from NEC, both are rated with sub-1-frame delay which is good considering those don't suffer any TN-typical viewing angle problems.

On the successor to the X3500, the X4500 Sony introduced LED backlight with local dimming. Even in Gamemode the X4500 (XBR8) has a lag of about 30ms (nearly 2-frames). Yesterday Sony introduced their new 2010 LCDs. While the top of the line HX900 series will again feature backlight LED dimming (and therefore a minimum lag of 2 frames), the "gaming elite" display LX900 series seems hopeful. 60", full 3D and Edge-LED which would allow Sony to go back to the lag-free gaming of the X3500... but probably not too many people have $7000 to spend on a new display.

[evil_ash_xero]

Well, as for the IPS from NEC...where can I go about finding one of these? Also, these are the thin tiypes of monitors, yes? I would like to avoid the gargantuan monitors of the past.

Also, how do PS2 and Wii games look on these VGA monitors?

Can you recommend an adapter for the PS2 and Wii?

What's important to me, is that it looks good(it doesn't have to look stunning), and be virtually free of lag.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

I'm not saying an LCD configuration will beat a CRT, i'm just saying that you could offer a solution which gives the best results using a LCD TV.

So if money is no object, what would be your best LCD/VGA set up?

My TV was reviewed as not having a game mode because it didn't need one because Sony made sure it was fast enough already.

KDL40W4500.

Although I have heard Panasonic are not that great in the lag dept. I guess it just depends on what sort of money you have got and what reviews you read before you take the plunge. Most people just don't take these things into consideration, often taking the lowest priced TV thinking it looks just as good as the more expensive ones.

For myself -

Blacks are very important.
Internal scaling is becoming a moot point for TV for myself, but people still need it
1:1 pixel mapping is paramount for me
Lag is important, but its just a case of reading reviews to eliminate the bad offenders.

But you know what, after buying my TV, I never even realized my TV didn't have a svideo socket, just took it for granted it would have one

It always pays to check the back of the respective HDTV to see if it has all the necessary A/V inputs to your liking including S-Video. ^_~

Of course, using S-Video on a 4:3 type of SDTV monitor is quite sharp as it is.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Fudoh]

Well, as for the IPS from NEC...where can I go about finding one of these? Also, these are the thin tiypes of monitors, yes? I would like to avoid the gargantuan monitors of the past.

we're talking LCD. IPS is a type of panel, probably the best compromise between PVA and TN. The Nec model is called EA231.

Also, how do PS2 and Wii games look on these VGA monitors?

good enough. The NEC LCDs have a pretty good scaling engine, so you don't have to worry about upscaling from VGA to the native res.

Can you recommend an adapter for the PS2 and Wii?

For the Wii you can buy a dedicated VGA cable and for the PS2 refer to the other thread or my website (retrogaming.hazard-city.de).

[cvaniafan]

So if money is no object, what would be your best LCD/VGA set up?

currently a bit hard to tell. The best Sony Gaming TVs have been the X3500 (XBR5) and (supposedly) the Z4500. The X3500 is practically lag-free (meaning under 10ms) with VGA or native HDMI in gamemode. That's my display. On my desktop I use three Nec LCD2180 UX displays which are completely lagfree. Your W4500 has a lag of 24ms in HDMI mode, which are 1.5 frames. If you add a PS3 with another 1.5 frames delay on PS2 gaming you're at 3 frames, which you can certainly feel already.

When buying a PC display for gaming nowadays one should get a IPS display, either 26" from HP or 23" from NEC, both are rated with sub-1-frame delay which is good considering those don't suffer any TN-typical viewing angle problems.

On the successor to the X3500, the X4500 Sony introduced LED backlight with local dimming. Even in Gamemode the X4500 (XBR8) has a lag of about 30ms (nearly 2-frames). Yesterday Sony introduced their new 2010 LCDs. While the top of the line HX900 series will again feature backlight LED dimming (and therefore a minimum lag of 2 frames), the "gaming elite" display LX900 series seems hopeful. 60", full 3D and Edge-LED which would allow Sony to go back to the lag-free gaming of the X3500... but probably not too many people have $7000 to spend on a new display.

Is the Sony V5500 serie good ? Besides Sony, what other LCD TVs is (almost) lag-free (especially when coupled with the X-RGB3) ?
Thanks

[Fudoh]

I don't follow the LCD market to give any TV advice. It's become way too complicated. Look out for a helpful english language LCD-TV forum if you need information on that. I would recommend AVforums.com in the UK or the AVSforum.com in the US. There are enough serious players out there to help you out with this kind of information on any TV out there (I'm moderating a german LCD-TV forum and there's plenty of "lag-threads" on all manufacturers. With a quick search I could find info on the W/Z400/4500/5500, but not on the V5500).

The Z4500 is *the* recommended gaming TV. It has under 10ms lag in gamemode and it has under 2 frames lag with activated motionflow. That's quite a novum since nearly all other TVs have a hefty 50-100ms lag with interframe calculation. On the Z4500 120/240Hz gaming is quite possible while it's out of the question on all those 50-100ms TVs...

[evil_ash_xero]

You're the man, Fudoh. Thanks for all the information.

[cvaniafan]

I don't follow the LCD market to give any TV advice. It's become way too complicated. Look out for a helpful english language LCD-TV forum if you need information on that. I would recommend AVforums.com in the UK or the AVSforum.com in the US. There are enough serious players out there to help you out with this kind of information on any TV out there (I'm moderating a german LCD-TV forum and there's plenty of "lag-threads" on all manufacturers. With a quick search I could find info on the W/Z400/4500/5500, but not on the V5500).

The Z4500 is *the* recommended gaming TV. It has under 10ms lag in gamemode and it has under 2 frames lag with activated motionflow. That's quite a novum since nearly all other TVs have a hefty 50-100ms lag with interframe calculation. On the Z4500 120/240Hz gaming is quite possible while it's out of the question on all those 50-100ms TVs...

Thanks for the infos. The Z4500 has been replaced by the Z5500 series, still with the 200Hz and Motion Flow. Really pricey serie though.
Funny to see, unlike CRT TVs, it's almost advised to choose an LCD with the 100/200Hz bells & whistles for playing old school games without lag..
...oh man, despite the XRGB stuff, I miss those old 4:3 CRT TVs soo much... When it was about choosing your TV, I think it was so much easy to make your choice... Nowadays, when you try to choose your LCD, you learn that it's good for HD but poor with SD. When you read it's good with SD, you read elsewhere it has clouding. When there is no clouding, there is lag or bad dark colours, etc...etc...etc... Shitty technology.

[Fudoh]

The Z4500 has been replaced by the Z5500 series, still with the 200Hz and Motion Flow.

yes, I know, but don't judge from the Z4500's specs on the sucessor. While the W4500 had under 10ms in Gamemode, the W5500 has a lag of up to 4 frames (~55ms) even in Gamemode.

[neorichieb1971]

LOL.

The thing is though, most TV's nowadays actually look really good in the store. Its only when you get them home you start seeing lots of things that piss you off. Mine has clouding which can be rectified with a professional calibration but its not enough for me to want to spend whatever it costs to get it done. Clouding is caused I think by an uneven backlight, so one of the corners usually looks a lighter black than the others. Obviously this is unique to the LCD range of TV's, since LED and Plasma use the pixels as the light source.

[cvaniafan]

The Z4500 has been replaced by the Z5500 series, still with the 200Hz and Motion Flow.

yes, I know, but don't judge from the Z4500's specs on the sucessor. While the W4500 had under 10ms in Gamemode, the W5500 has a lag of up to 4 frames (~55ms) even in Gamemode.

Sure, but that's also what piss me off. The 4500 series is "old" already on the market, as a result you can find the 5500 quite more easily in shops !

[evil_ash_xero]

Will the XRGB work on VGA monitors to make your games look less pixelated and whatnot?

[neorichieb1971]

If I use my Supergun through RGB to my TV it comes out a lot more pixellated than it does through the XRGB2.

The pixellation gets worse the bigger your TV is.

With my HDTV, if I use SCART the picture is always full screen (you can change it to 4:3 if you want), but with the XRGB2 because it uses the VGA input you have a lot more options available. Such as being able to natively display the image. But overall yes, the image is better through the XRGB2. If you stick to something around 32", I think thats probably going to be about the neutral zone for size vs quality.

[evil_ash_xero]

Well, I was mainly curious if these XRGB devices work with VGA monitors. I'm taking that as a yes?

Also, i'm a little dim on which kind to get. I think it's the XRGB2+ that has the "game mode" which has no lag? Am I correct?


Where do I order these online? What's the price range?

Should I wait for a better model to come out?

[Fudoh]

I would highly recommend that we drop the "VGA monitor" from this discussion. VGA is a connection which is available on every HDTV display and on all PC monitors, no matter if CRT, Plasma or LCD.

Where do I order these online? What's the price range?

$450 shipped for a XRGB-3. $250 used for a 2plus.

[evil_ash_xero]

I would highly recommend that we drop the "VGA monitor" from this discussion. VGA is a connection which is available on every HDTV display and on all PC monitors, no matter if CRT, Plasma or LCD.

Where do I order these online? What's the price range?

$450 shipped for a XRGB-3. $250 used for a 2plus.

Which would you recommend?

[evil_ash_xero]

OK, I was able to hook up my 360 to my friend's LCD TV, through the RGB input, with the VGA cables.

If there is lag, it's certainly reduced to where I can't tell it's there.

The picture is a little dim and dull. What can the XRGB do for this? Anything? Or does VGA just not look that good?

[Fudoh]

The picture is a little dim and dull. What can the XRGB do for this? Anything? Or does VGA just not look that good?

Some TVs offer limited control over contrast, brightness, colors and saturation when fed with VGA. Using a XRGB you get full control over stuff like Saturation, RGB Bias and Gain and do whatever you like.