"Brush up on your skills"

[Aquas]

Many of us know that part of enjoying shooting games is dedicating the patience to practice and improve. Whether it's for 1cc or for score, we want to get good enough as soon as possible to get that 1cc, or the next extend or what have you. Since I got into shooting games again, starting with Raiden Fighters Jet's frantic medal bonanza, I've implemented training regimines into my play when I want to get good at a certain shmup.

For me, MAME and using save states is a blessing for practicing tough parts. You know I love loading up a save right before the zub rush in Gradius's 2-loop St. 2 when the suicide bullets appear. Gotta maneuver just the right way through the little cell wall, hoping the zubs don't flank you in such a way passing through. Shield really helps absorb some of the bullets so you can jam yourself through. But more often than not I get sniped from behind, it's a mad dog manuever and perhaps one of the established "brick wall" moments of the higher loops.

How do you guys cope with the progression of your skills? Or your progression in certain shooters, 1cc or for score? Do you play casually more than aiming for a goal, maybe it depends on the game. When do you settle for your score and cease to aim higher, how do you deal with frustratingly hard things to pull off? When do you throw in the towel?

For overachievers, can you give some tips or tricks into reaching top scores? It takes a little more than obsessive playing to get a respectable score, though... keeping your skills in check with a game is certainly a good idea if you're trying to get better >_>. I'm poking around the subject because it seems to be what's on my mind most of the time when I'm playing shooting games now.

I like the idea of tabulating your scores for each stage if it's a score intensive game. I've been doing this for Mushi Futari and it has been helping me get a cohesive idea of how I'm scoring and how poor or well I do for a stage.

I'd say the key to success in 1cc'ing a game is pinpointing your trouble spots, where you die frequently, and then hammering them out in a practice session. That's my main method of approach. Sometimes I forget that I should do that and just eternally fail in some games. Example, Twinbee Yahoo. I've played it so many damn times on the PSP but I always fail at the big cat rush pretty much. Perhaps it's because I haven't been able to practice it, that that part gives me all the trouble. I know that the boss of st. 3 Gradius III arcade is a prime example of a boss that requires a plan to defeat. Fucker ruined so many runs for me.

I just played Gradius V and died at st. 4's cell wall and was reminded how long it had been since I played.

[sjewkestheloon]

I've been away from shmups for a while, well serious play anyhow.

Been playing Mushi Futari for a few days now and had reached a bit of an impasse at the end of stage 2, beginning of stage 3 with about 45 mil. Over 2 days I played stage 2 in practise mode with one life a bunch of times, then played a few credits straight through with no real improvement. Today I watched a 1.5 Original replay and then did some scoring experimentation and enemy placement practice on Novice Original.

Jumped on Black Label Original soon after and got 75 mil.

I know a lot of people advocate repetition or limiting the number of credits that they play. I, however, tend to just mess around with a variety of options within the game as all of them teach me something, and quite often something will click and I'll just be able to go a bit further.

I'm not a pro though, and don't think I have the tenacity to be one. I'm more likely to spend time taking down super bosses in RPGs these days, but that's for another thread.

[EinhanderZwei]

Actually, I can't say that I'm playing always either for 1CC or score. What really drives me through my favorite shmups is the exploration motif. Yeah, just wanting to see what crazy stuff the devs are gonna throw at me further Though this doesn't mean that I'm not upgrading my skills and favorite tactics while playing

For example, if the hitbox of my ship wasn't that small in DoDonPachi, I'd injure myself in frustration. So I've trained the hell out of myself to learn bullet dodging and maneuvering through all that projectile curtains, which let me enjoy all the further danmakus I've played (well, technically my first danmaku was DonPachi, but I don't think it's a 100%-true-pure-free-of-Raiden'isms game of its kind)

Or let's take R-Type - if someone's going to take it on seriously, I'd recommend beating the Game Boy Color version first. Why? Because it lets you learn all the tactics you'll need and memorize all the significant stage hazards. For example, that is the exact way I've mastered that good old dirty trick with killing the last boss with the detached Force

For training on vert shmups I'd recommend:
- Spriggan 1
- Any 16-bit Star Soldier game, of which Final Soldier is the easiest, and Super Star Soldier is the hardest. Soldier Blade is a perfect balance
- GG Aleste should be fine too

If you want to build up the hori shmupping skill, there's no better choice but Einhander. Beat it first, and then get to Gradius, R-Type, Gate Of Thunder - the tougher stuff

[Dragoforce]

Play for long periods of time, but in short bursts. If you have a day off and feel like dedicating it to a shmup play for as long as you feel that you're making progress. When you hit the wall, take a break. Watch some replays, take a walk and stuff like that. Then go at it again. Try practicing a few credits each day as well, it helps to maintain your skill.

Save states is a great way to practice certain parts and bosses. I personally don't use savestates for practicing a whole stage. Basiclly because I can't get in "the zone" that is required for longer durations of play when I constantly restart. And about that. Don't restart unless you're playing Raiden Fighters. It's better to continue and make each credit count I think. You can always try experimenting and stuff that you wouldn't do on a normal run.

I usually try not looking at my score when I play, simply because it just makes me nervous when I perform well and irritated with sloppy playing when I play poor. Comparing your score stage by stage makes you think too much in my opinion, but that's just personal taste.

About throwing in the towel, that depends. I don't regard shmups as games that can ever be completed (aside from counter-stops of course) If you feel that you're not making any progress and keep getting frustrated you should stop playing the game for a while. Let some time pass and return to it again. I find this to be a great way to improve score/survival.

. Example, Twinbee Yahoo. I've played it so many damn times on the PSP but I always fail at the big cat rush pretty much. Perhaps it's because I haven't been able to practice it, that that part gives me all the trouble.

Just use the option-producing weapon (number three) and bomb the cats once, then go to the far right and reload it. Once the cat is closing in from behind, release the bomb again. Reload, Then move to the center, bomb once the cats close in on you and you're home free. I could make you a video if you want?

[EinhanderZwei]

And as a follow-up, some general advice:

The main mistake behind any game training is when you think 'I'm gonna pop in a really hard one, so I will learn by trial and error'. This is wrong. You'll get nothing but frustration. Remember: when you're training, always pick up EASY games! This applies not only to shmups, but to all other genres. For example, every Quake 3 pro will advise you nothing else, but starting with a random map, enabled cheat codes and the easiest bots. Just go and kill them, and your skill will rise. Same with shmups: pick up some Spriggan, don't hesitate to use savestates, and you'll be victorious on any difficulty. It worked for me, it'll work for everyone else

[saucykobold]

I tend to follow this general process:

1. Play casually for a few weeks (at least). No save states.

2. Semi-casual play. Save state practice for assorted tricky sections.

3. Systematic save state practice. Mentally divide each level into a few chunks (when possible, have each chunk end during a brief lull in the action). Replay each chunk over and over; memorize enemy locations, know when individual enemies fire for the first time, find a safe and feasible route, and record said route in a short video. Annotate the video; be sure to note stuff that isn't obvious from the video alone (e.g. "1:42--Three possible enemy permutations here; one chosen randomly. See blah.avi for best way to handle each permutation"). Take screenshots when appropriate (e.g. to show the left and right boundaries of safe spots).

I find that steps 1 and 2 are usually enough if you want a quick 1CC. I take the plunge into step 3 for difficult games I really enjoy, such as Image Fight and Raiden DX. As a side benefit, taking notes helps a lot when you revisit a game after several months off.

[wiNteR]

I would say that the most important thing is to play consistently for longer periods of time (several months or few years). Try to play every day. Time put in does matter, but that goes without saying, for anything really. However, playing regularly will give you confidence and you will start to see yourself improving in the longer run.

If you take a break for weeks or months, you might feel a little rusty initially, when you play again. But you start to catch up after a few days or weeks.

[captpain]

I'm not that great but I find that if I'm playing for fun, I'm playing my best. So, even if I'm obsessively playing a game or portions of a game with the idea of a clear, I do best if I'm really enjoying it.

[captpain]

And as a follow-up, some general advice:

The main mistake behind any game training is when you think 'I'm gonna pop in a really hard one, so I will learn by trial and error'. This is wrong. You'll get nothing but frustration. Remember: when you're training, always pick up EASY games! This applies not only to shmups, but to all other genres. For example, every Quake 3 pro will advise you nothing else, but starting with a random map, enabled cheat codes and the easiest bots. Just go and kill them, and your skill will rise. Same with shmups: pick up some Spriggan, don't hesitate to use savestates, and you'll be victorious on any difficulty. It worked for me, it'll work for everyone else

IMHO, this is backwards. In sports, music, etc (and I assume it applies to shmups) you want to start a "project" that is initially above your skill level, but not by too much, so that you have a reasonable chance of mastering it and slightly bumping up your abilities. Then, you repeat this, with something appropriately notched up because of your newfound skill.

[clp]

And as a follow-up, some general advice:

The main mistake behind any game training is when you think 'I'm gonna pop in a really hard one, so I will learn by trial and error'. This is wrong. You'll get nothing but frustration. Remember: when you're training, always pick up EASY games! This applies not only to shmups, but to all other genres. For example, every Quake 3 pro will advise you nothing else, but starting with a random map, enabled cheat codes and the easiest bots. Just go and kill them, and your skill will rise. Same with shmups: pick up some Spriggan, don't hesitate to use savestates, and you'll be victorious on any difficulty. It worked for me, it'll work for everyone else

this is bullshit , do you have any proof of this working aswell ie any impressive shmup scores to back it up?

[linko9]

There's some related discussion of this topic over in the DDP high-score thread that I'm sure not many people saw. Prometheus said he was considering writing up a guide for how to practice DDP/shmups in general that I hope he writes one day.

[MathU]

I'm pretty much compelled to play for score at all times, so when I finally get those single-credit clears, they're all the sweeter.

[EinhanderZwei]

this is bullshit , do you have any proof of this working aswell ie any impressive shmup scores to back it up?

Didn't I say that I don't play for scores/1CCs/PSN trophies? I am just sharing my experience covering the very very basics of... Alright, f-f-fuck it. I've 1CCd all the pre-PS2 Contras. So yes I do have some fuckin' proof

[Schrodinger's cat]

There's some related discussion of this topic over in the DDP high-score thread that I'm sure not many people saw. Prometheus said he was considering writing up a guide for how to practice DDP/shmups in general that I hope he writes one day.

Wow, never went through that thread before (I generally just look at the scores in the OP). Great read... many golden nuggets of wisdom there.

I usually impose a no-miss, no-bomb requirement for the first three levels of many shooters I play, and often get frustrated when I die because I have a nasty habit of restarting from scratch when that happens. This of course results in me getting a lot more practice for earlier levels and way less for later stages. I'll definitely try to heed the advice of this thread from now on and try to get through as much of the game as I can without restarting after stupid mistakes.

A lot of the time I find that certain parts of a stage have a greater chance of killing me than others. I find that practicing ONLY these problem areas through save states helps immensely. This may be obvious to a lot of you, but sometimes you might not realize that you're practicing more than you need to. For example, If the last part of a boss always has one pattern that kills you, don't practice that last part... practice that one pattern. Getting very specific with problem spots will help you get better a lot faster.

IMHO, this is backwards. In sports, music, etc (and I assume it applies to shmups) you want to start a "project" that is initially above your skill level, but not by too much, so that you have a reasonable chance of mastering it and slightly bumping up your abilities. Then, you repeat this, with something appropriately notched up because of your newfound skill.

I agree with this. I said it before in the Futari thread but for example... on my first day of playing the game, I spent about 2 hours playing it on 1.5 Ultra before doing anything else, only, got to the 2nd level on one credit maybe twice that entire time, but got accustomed to the extreme difficulty of the mode just because I knew that everything else would be way easier by comparison. So when I played 1.5 original mode, I got to Larsa on my 1st credit with Palm. There's just no better way of improving fast than by challenging yourself with something that will kick your ass hard.

[Voxbox]

I really like taking note of my score/chain/etc in between stages. Even if your run as a whole isn't your best, parts of it could be and that's good to know. Keeps your spirit up.

Savestates are a must for me when it comes to longer or just slower paced games, where I tend to zone out and not pay attention in critical moments. I remember training Darius Gaiden for a competition, where I spent all night working everything out by savestates, having one at every stage and every boss, constantly switching through the most challenging to the next. When I finally made that real run and put it all together - a wonderful feeling.

I stopped playing DoDonPachi because I couldn't savestate. I got torn between perfecting Stage 1 and working out how to beat Stage 5. It's just too long between the two, and I don't have the patience to reset (takes me out of the flow), and a few sloppy mistakes and I wouldn't reach Stage 5 at all.
It became long tedious sessions where I improved little, and savestates would have turned it into short sessions with lot's of improvement. You really get spoiled by savestates, and that's the reason I rarely play shmups on my consoles. Games like Ikaruga where you can practice each level are really golden.

[linko9]

I stopped playing DoDonPachi because I couldn't savestate.

Use a version of MAME (any variety) .99 or earlier, savestates work perfectly. I understand how you would get frustrated without them.

[third_strike]

80% of scores of site, even more can be beat playing the same game during more than 3 months. It's because 90% people, even more can't play the same game during more 3 months.
One goal, memorization, months of play and one good use of frustration is the key for me 1cc one game, mainly because my low skills.
Cool!

[mesh control]

sedatives + repetition
is my strategy, but i don't have the time.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Im far from been a "pro" but heres my 2 cents

I think that it depends on the player if it's best to pick a shmup that challenges you but not too much or a rock hard shmup needing 6+ months to complete. If you pick the later its worth asking yourself - will i still be playing this game in months to come or will i give up and play something else. You want to be having fun playin games as soon as it becomes work i would give it a rest and play something else.

Atm I personally prefer to play shmups i can be finished with relativly quickly and move onto something else. I also think its worth playing more then 1 shmup at a time since it helps to develop your twitch skills and learn more bullet patterns. Plus i know this is obvious but taking the time to learn the gameplay mechanics of a shmup will make all the difference. For example summer carnival 92 Recca which many ppl say is very hard is actually quite easy if you know the ins and outs of it (god bless this forum)

I havnt played any 'practice shmups' for a while but those i did play were Nomltest FS, P47, R-rootage and Reincarnation (all freeware) or any shmup that has no stages but gets progressivly harder as you play.

[CptRansom]

Alcohol. Tons of it.

Barring that, I posted a thread about this a while back, took the replies to heart, and I think it's been working out pretty well for me. I vary how I play (am I going for stage progression/1cc or score?), I've been limiting myself to just a few credits of whatever game I'm really focused on per day and I don't restart when I have a stupid death near the beginning.

I'm going to try that whole not-looking-at-the-score thing. I'm constantly glancing at my counter while playing Futari (which is good), but then my eye wanders to the score (which is bad). Then I start wondering why I'm doing better/worse than previous runs (which is worse). Then I completely lose focus on actually, you know, playing the GAME (which ends in disaster, gratuitous use of four-letter words, etc).

Something else I've been trying lately which has been working out rather well is to do some exercise between credits. I've got an elliptical in my living room and so I've taken to playing a credit or two of a game, then putting on a replay (or just a movie or TV show), jogging for 15-20 minutes, and then sitting back down to tackle it again. This is A) helping get my fat ass in shape and B) giving me an endorphin/adrenaline rush so it's easier to say, "FUCK YEAH I'M GOING TO SLAUGHTER THIS GAME, ITS ENTIRE FAMILY AND THEIR LITTLE DOG, TOO."

[clp]

this is bullshit , do you have any proof of this working aswell ie any impressive shmup scores to back it up?

Didn't I say that I don't play for scores/1CCs/PSN trophies? I am just sharing my experience covering the very very basics of... Alright, f-f-fuck it. I've 1CCd all the pre-PS2 Contras. So yes I do have some fuckin' proof

LOL , advice from the guy who thinks a series with 100% control over ship speed has bad control .

[Voxbox]

Use a version of MAME (any variety) .99 or earlier, savestates work perfectly. I understand how you would get frustrated without them.

Thanks man. I'm definitly picking up DDP again.

Alcohol. Tons of it.

I wouldn't agree with "tons of it" but some alcohol sure could do good for practicing (it would at least not get as boring), as long as the mind and vision stays clear

[EinhanderZwei]

LOL , advice from the guy who thinks a series with 100% control over ship speed has bad control .

Why not, actually? I want one good control scheme rather than being able to adjust '99% shitty <-> 100% shitty'

[clp]

LOL , advice from the guy who thinks a series with 100% control over ship speed has bad control .

Why not, actually? I want one good control scheme rather than being able to adjust '99% shitty <-> 100% shitty'

When did shmups become an exact science ? just stfu and actually play the game then enjoy how you adjust to it until you dont even notice .

[EinhanderZwei]

actually play the game then enjoy how you adjust to it until you dont even notice .

Wasn't it the point of my difficulty-related advice? Not sure why that irritated you so horribly then...

[Ganelon]

There's some related discussion of this topic over in the DDP high-score thread that I'm sure not many people saw. Prometheus said he was considering writing up a guide for how to practice DDP/shmups in general that I hope he writes one day.

Prometheus is entirely right. Many folks think there's some shortcut to getting results (not playing and coming back is one of the biggest fallacies) but that's only for beginners. If you're looking to get top scores on a popular game, practice long, practice often, and focus on your practice. Save states definitely help. After all, if you're playing a fighting game and only have trouble against 1 character, will playing against other characters do much? Sure, it'll help your general ability but it won't be as much benefit as directly playing against your weakness.

Of course, most players quit long before it's time since they get bored and encounter diminishing rewards with additional time. You've spent 200 hours and are "almost there?" Well, to get somewhat better, you'll have to double that time. All of the master players you see in superplays have spent thousands of hours of time on the game. Just getting a 1CC on a game is quite trivial in comparison.

[Ravid]

Since posting in the DDP thread discussion, I've revised my opinion on save state practice. I still don't think one should try to learn the game by playing save states, or that one should rote-memorise routes from superplays and copy them, and I think that training exclusively in 20-second segments trains you only to play for 20 seconds. Nonetheless, I'll concede that once you've got the overall shape of the game down, along with a basic survival route, save state practice is an invaluable tool for mastering those tricky manoeuvres.

Learning to play a shooter is in many ways analogous to learning a piano piece. When you start, you play through the whole thing, or a large part of it, many times until you've got a feel for the form of the thing. As you continue, you naturally start to memorise most of it. Then there may be a few tricky bits left over, both to memorise and to play, and there you've got to break it down bar by bar and overcome those obstacles. You can watch a video of a professional pianist play and try to copy their interpretation, or you can not be a twat and try to bring your own ideas to the piece. Both a piano piece and a shooter can be played virtuosically by a great player (pianist).
The analogy isn't perfect of course; for example, the degree of technique and precision required to simply get through the average piano piece without any major blunders is significantly greater than any shooter!

[captpain]

Learning to play a shooter is in many ways analogous to learning a piano piece. When you start, you play through the whole thing, or a large part of it, many times until you've got a feel for the form of the thing. As you continue, you naturally start to memorise most of it. Then there may be a few tricky bits left over, both to memorise and to play, and there you've got to break it down bar by bar and overcome those obstacles. You can watch a video of a professional pianist play and try to copy their interpretation, or you can not be a twat and try to bring your own ideas to the piece. Both a piano piece and a shooter can be played virtuosically by a great player (pianist).
The analogy isn't perfect of course; for example, the degree of technique and precision required to simply get through the average piano piece without any major blunders is significantly greater than any shooter!

Generally speaking, classical performers initially start bar by bar and methodically learn and practice only small parts over and over, only performing large sections or the whole piece for specific reasons (and comparably not often). Save state practice is much more akin to properly learning a classical piece.

It's a research-documented/proven fact that playing a whole piece over and over is dramatically less effective than obsessively studying small (sometimes extremely small) sections many times.

People give way too much credit to the argument that full run-throughs of games are as good for practice as save state sections. As far as I'm concerned, there cannot realistically be any debate that intelligently-structured practice, using save states, is much better than simply running through the whole game over and over.

edit: my friend just chimed in and said "it's like saying that learning/memorizing a book is best done by reading the whole thing over and over... it doesn't make sense"

[Ravid]

I think I messed up my argument above: of course most practice is spent on small sections. In fact, come to think of it, most of what I said was bullshit; I suppose I was still clinging to my ideal of only doing full runs (which is more fun of course). Perhaps it's time for me to give Prometheus's method another try.

I still think the analogy holds, though.

[captpain]

I think I messed up my argument above: of course most practice is spent on small sections. In fact, come to think of it, most of what I said was bullshit; I suppose I was still clinging to my ideal of only doing full runs (which is more fun of course). Perhaps it's time for me to give Prometheus's method another try.

I still think the analogy holds, though.

Haha, well, I agree with the analogy for sure, just not as you had initially phrased it.

With all this being said, I still do full runs always because I don't take scoring or practice in shmups at all seriously.