Jeff Minter is making Gridrunner+++ for XBLA

Zuhzuhzombie!! · Post by **Zuhzuhzombie!!** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:51 pm

Thread can now be closed.

No.

Space Giraffe was awesome. I was home sick yesterday and spent a solid two hours playing through the first fifty levels.

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:52 pm

Indeed. Space Giraffe is pretty much one of the best shmups I've ever played. Certainly my GOTY 2007. Some people like to take cheap pot-shots at Jeff Minter, but in my experience, it's usally the people who are the *least* informed about him and his games who are responsible.

Zuhzuhzombie!! · Post by **Zuhzuhzombie!!** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:32 pm

The trick is to just keep your wits about you and respond to the environment.

You hear that ringing sound? That's a flower. Whether you can see it or not, don't go over there. Do your bull runs over here instead.

jp · Post by jp » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:48 pm

bcass wrote:Indeed. Space Giraffe is pretty much one of the best shmups I've ever played. Certainly my GOTY 2007. Some people like to take cheap pot-shots at Jeff Minter, but in my experience, it's usally the people who are the *least* informed about him and his games who are responsible.

Indeed. Space Giraffe is brilliant if you understand how its supposed to be played.

If you play it like Tempest its not very good.

orange · Post by **orange** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:48 pm

LGB wrote:And in Ikaruga you only need to worry about one. The fact that you can only shoot in one direction, and the fact that you only shoot in one direction.

yeah but ikaruga is critically acclaimed and the fans have frothing demand for it that is steadily increasing so i could totally see how they don't mind

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:23 am

The general ignorance to the greatness of Space Giraffe on this forum indicates a fettish for Japanese devs, rather than a fettish for actual shmups. I love what Cave have done as much as the next guy here, but they aren't the be-all and end-all of the genre we all love.

It's odd that you all hate the closed-mind set of the mass media when it comes to the acceptance of your beloved genre, yet when something truly innovative comes our way, you're as guilty of ignorance as those you hate so much.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:09 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoT-_2wC4vY

looks like a bag of shit to me

...and dude needs to stay off the drugs

also, bcass: you're UK aren't you? every british mag i saw review space giraffe gave it 6/10 or less, while simultaneously giving other shooters from western devcos higher scores. i think gamestm even gave super stardust HD a 9/10.

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:11 am

EDGE magazine, possibly the most respected games mag ever commited to print, and the UKs premiere games publication (for over 10 years now) gave Space Giraffe 8 out of 10.

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:14 am

Also, if you want to see some real gameplay footage, you need to watch these:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7499019606 - level 1-20
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7461948182 - level 21-40
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8273891152 - level 41-60
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4579290774 - level 61-75
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7219536943 - level 76-90
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4402934527 - level 91-100

the whole game being completed (on the hardest setting), by a Japanese player no less. Levels 1 to 100, completed in around 3 and a half hours.

The guys gamertag is 'Kelora' if you want to check his credentials.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:15 am

bcass wrote:EDGE magazine, possibly the most respected games mag ever commited to print, gave Space Giraffe 8 out of 10.

i rest my case

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:21 am

Yeah, I don't respect EDGE anymore either, but something tells me you're judging this game without even having played it properly. That's a bit like a Western reviewer reviewing Dai Fukatsu without having learnt how to play it first. Astonishing really that you'd be capable of such ignorance.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:35 am

three of my friends downloaded the demo and hated it, and they're quite broad-minded folk who will play anything. 8/10 is definitely the highest i've seen it scored, but it's a little dubious for two reasons: 1) they employed jeff for two years, and 2) it's normally the other way around - edge will deliberately give a game a score than all the other mags just to be more l33t as if that means their tastes are more discerning (same mag gave ico 7/10, radiant silvergun 7/10, etc etc).

obviously if you enjoy it, then that's cool. but from watching a video i can tell you that i really dislike the visual and audio presentation. i think the sound effects are ridiculous. the psychedelia seems to make recognition very difficult.

i also have no idea why you're trying to insult me personally. firstly, i'm not writing a review on the gameplay (i should probably unerline that word emphasise), i'm passing my judgement on the aesthetics.

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:42 am

I'm not having a go at you personally, but come on, it's just a little bit daft to judge a game without having played it first, no?

Zuhzuhzombie!! · Post by **Zuhzuhzombie!!** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:43 pm

looks like a bag of shit to me

As we all know, shmups are judged first and foremost on their presentation.

three of my friends downloaded the demo and hated it

downloaded the demo

demo

Quit using your friend's experience with an incredibly small portion of the game to formulate your own opinion on a game you haven't played.

I didn't "get" Space Giraffe until the later levels, when things started coming into perspective and I figured out how to properly chain, keep the web expanded, and manage and avoid enemies.

8/10 is definitely the highest i've seen it scored

Game Industry News 4.5 of 5
Game Almighty 8.5 of 10
Wired Game | Life Blog 8 of 10
Gamer's Guide 8 of 10
Gamespot 7.5 of 10
MS Xbox World 7 of 10

I don't think Minter has worked for all of these.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:45 pm

you didn't understand what i said: it looks like a bag of shit. aesthetically, i don't like it.

what you seem to be saying is that you can't form an opinion on how something looks by looking at it. you can't form an opinion on the gameplay by actually playing it.

the point of a demo is to experience the gameplay first-hand so you can make a judgement on whether paying £3 or whatever it sells for is worth it, and 90% of the people who downloaded the demo weren't convinced either.

orange · Post by **orange** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:46 pm

also it is an arena shooter

320x240 · Post by **320x240** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:00 pm

bcass wrote:It's odd that you all hate the closed-mind set of the mass media when it comes to the acceptance of your beloved genre, yet when something truly innovative comes our way, you're as guilty of ignorance as those you hate so much.

Most people here wants the same old same old. That this is the case with games from larger developers is understandable but it's regrettable that this seems to be the case when it comes to doujins, homebrews and games from small developers too. This closed mindedness is bad for shmups as a genre (not that I'm above such close mindedness myself).

antares · Post by **antares** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:00 pm

Retro Gamer issue # 43:

Aesthetics: 90%
Playability: 92%
Longevity: 95%
Value For Money: 98%
Overall: 97%

ubersaurus · Post by **ubersaurus** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:04 pm

jpj wrote:you didn't understand what i said: it looks like a bag of shit. aesthetically, i don't like it.

what you seem to be saying is that you can't form an opinion on how something looks by looking at it. you can't form an opinion on the gameplay by actually playing it.

the point of a demo is to experience the gameplay first-hand so you can make a judgement on whether paying £3 or whatever it sells for is worth it, and 90% of the people who downloaded the demo weren't convinced either.

Using the figures for the demos and the sales, I think it was a 17% purchase rate for the game.

But truth be told I agree with the notion that there's a ton of people on this forum who are big time Japan developer fans, Cave especially. Space Giraffe is an excellent little game, and the fact that bashing Minter because it isn't another shooter with gfancy ass bullet patterns is sad. Makes me question what, if any, love the new Gridrunner is gonna get here...or if anyone here even cared about his older stuff.

Edit: Space Giraffe is about as far from Arena Shooter as you can get. It's a tube shooter.

Zuhzuhzombie!! · Post by **Zuhzuhzombie!!** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:07 am

jpj wrote:you didn't understand what i said: it looks like a bag of shit. aesthetically, i don't like it.

what you seem to be saying is that you can't form an opinion on how something looks by looking at it. you can't form an opinion on the gameplay by actually playing it.

the point of a demo is to experience the gameplay first-hand so you can make a judgement on whether paying £3 or whatever it sells for is worth it, and 90% of the people who downloaded the demo weren't convinced either.

You didn't understand what I said. How a shooter looks means dog shit.

I know what a demo is for. Regardless of what consists of the Space Giraffe demo, the game and it's depth isn't opened up fully until you explore later levels.

I imagine the people who downloaded the demo and then trashed SG are the same people who bitch that games like Shikigami or Trigger Heart Excelica don't get their fair shot.

I mean, why would anyone want to play either of those games? Crappy anime inspired looks and the first level is just bullet hell. I mean, come on.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:09 am

i'm not enough of a nerd to do multi-quoting, but let's go!

1. if you're happy to play ugly or uninspired games *despite* of any graphical fidelity, that's your choice. if i'm gonna be playing a game a lot, it should like nice too. in fact it's not even that this game is ugly - it simply hurts my eyes. don't you think the psychedelic pulsating colours are detrimental to the gameplay!? i don't understand why you didn't just make a remark about how different things are aesthetically pleasing to different people, and agree to disagree, what's beautiful to one guy might be ugly to someone else, etc. instead of implying that i am correct in saying it looks like shit, but it's looking like shit should not be so much of an issue.

2. i don't think you do understand what a demo is for. are you saying that the game isn't properly represented by the demo, and in fact it is the demo that is shit? that jeff failed to communicate the qualities game in the demo - which is it's purpose.

and do you really think more than 0.1% of people on xbox live have even heard of cave, or any other shooter developer. by all means carry on with the victim complex, but are you really suggesting that space giraffe is the victim of some kind of prejudice?

Zuhzuhzombie!! · Post by **Zuhzuhzombie!!** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:41 pm

First, I've played plenty of games that I thought were by and large visually or aesthetically unappealing. Mainly anime inspired releases. I'm playing through Spectral Force 3 at the moment and just skipping through the cutscenes. Don't care for them, and because it's a strategy game, it should largely be judged on the battle system.

I'm not saying graphics are completely irrelevant, but they do exist on a curve and tend to mean more or less depending on genre. Strategy games, shooters, and puzzle games depend less on presentation because it largely doesn't affect the point of the game. Where as adventure games and FPS' can place more emphasis on graphics to establish a setting or environment, and someone's opinion on them weighs a bit more.

More so, Space Giraffe's graphics aren't detrimental to the gameplay, because just like Rez, or more so like GeoWars, playing Space Giraffe requires you to use your eyes, but as well as your ears. The game even has an enemy that purposefully obstructs the view of the board to force you into taking on the level by different means.

Secondly, yes, I do think the demo doesn't do a good job of explaining what Space Giraffe is about. Again, things didn't "click" for me until the later levels. But by and large, I don't think most demos do most games any favors. I'm a huge fan of Call of Duty 4. I bought it because I participated in the multiplayer BETA. A single player demo was released on live that did not feature any multiplayer modes. I probably would not have bought the game if I didn't have the experience I had when I was in the BETA.

It's even more of an issue with games that are somewhat obtuse, like Space Giraffe.

And finally, I'm not takling to 0.1% of the people on Xbox Live. I'm talking to you, and you know good and damn well that if I opened a DoDonPachi thread and replied, "I played the first level of this game. It's 2D and just another bullet hell game" you know good and well that I would be on the other side of this conversation that I'm having with you.

by all means carry on with the victim complex, but are you really suggesting that space giraffe is the victim of some kind of prejudice?

Prejudice is too strong a word. I'll stick with ignorance, and not in any pejorative sense, but in the sense that most of the people who complain about Space Giraffe are completely unaware of how to play the game, or what the game is even about.

Largely, though, it's just a waste to discuss the game with you. Judging by your denigrative responses, you're just more interested in bashing a game you know next to nothing about.

orange · Post by **orange** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:40 am

i'm interested in bashing arena shooters i haven't even played

jp · Post by jp » Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:21 am

Space Giraffe is the victim of ignorance.

Its like Radiant Silvergun, if you're not playing it for score, then you're not doing it right, and you really have no place to give an opinion on it.

Like I said earlier, I REALLY did not like Space Giraffe when I first picked it up. But when I started trying to learn how to play for score... I became aware of the sheer genius of it and loved it.

I can guarantee you that not one person that speaks ill of Space Giraffe understands its scoring. And thats the problem Jeff Minter ran into: Most gamers/game reviewers today are too lazy to sit down and try to learn HOW to play a videogame that isn't just absurdly simple.

Same deal with GunValkyrie. If you didn't know how to play it, it sucked horribly. And you could BEAT the game without knowing how you were supposed to play it, and it would suck.

But once you learned how to correctly play GunValkyrie, game became fucking awesome instantly.

toaplan_shmupfan · Post by **toaplan_shmupfan** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:08 am

It's also the job of the developer to clearly spell out the objects of the game. If one of those is scoring, then they need to communicate this without any ambiguity, either in the game's manual, help file, or even with onscreen instructions. If they leave it as something to figure out, and some don't then that is a failure on the part of the game developer and not the player.

Being able to not play for score when one of the objects is to play for score also seems to be a serious game design flaw.

shmups.system11.org

Jeff Minter is making Gridrunner+++ for XBLA

Re: Jeff Minter is making Gridrunner+++ for XBLA