The state of shmups today? (Or: Rantings of an old man)

[CIT]

I've also yet to try out the whole doujin shooter scene, since I'm currently a Mac person. But one day I'll get myself a PC and dive into that too.

Why not simply run Windows in Boot Camp, then you don't even need a PC.

[honorless]

Short explanation: everyone is copying touhou.

As everyone already knows this is because touhou worked so well.

touhou

Stop blaming Touhou for a trend that has been escalating in anime, manga and virtually all other forms of entertainment aimed at lonely Japanese nerds long before Touhou became the phenomenon it is today.

You're demonstrating your ignorance of the subject. Elixir is correct.

[system11]

Hori memorisers

Modern danmaku games require more memorisation than things like R-Type ever did, especially if you want to get good scores.

[TVG]

Short explanation: everyone is copying touhou.

As everyone already knows this is because touhou worked so well.

touhou

Stop blaming Touhou for a trend that has been escalating in anime, manga and virtually all other forms of entertainment aimed at lonely Japanese nerds long before Touhou became the phenomenon it is today.

You're demonstrating your ignorance of the subject. Elixir is correct.

Quiet, let me have my scapegoat

Bloodflowers: I don't recall saying otherwise.

[system11]

For the people crying here:

Ask yourself, did you give Last Hope: Pink Bullets a real chance?

You should give discounts to people who bought the first version. PB does look like a huge improvement visually.

[chempop]

Fascinating topic, bravo Ghegs.

I used to gravitate towards Hori's: lifeforce, thunderforce, gates of thunder etc. I've been been on the bullet hell kick since this summer when I got a J360. However, I've been trying to find more games as epic as Rayforce, people pointed me in the direction of old hori's because they tend to have more of that adventure feel I long for.

What does this all mean? Bout time I order myself some Last Hope:PB (from the videos I've watched, it seems worth it from the music alone!)

[Devil REI]

Touhou isn't really to blame, a lot of this stuff was set in motion long before Touhou became the rampaging beast that it is. Half of Touhoutards don't even play the damn games. Which is sad, since for all the utter creepiness abound in the fandom, the games are pretty nice. (Plus, those that actually do play the games don't bother checking out other shooters, which is very saddening.)

Touhou is, however, screwing up all kinds of stuff for fans of doujin gaming and doujin works in general. Every doujin game now has to be Touhou-themed (essentially killing a lot of creativity), and Touhou day at the last Comiket was goddamned miserable

MORE ON TOPIC: Darius Burst might be worth a try for the OP.

[Exarion]

Short explanation: everyone is copying touhou.

As everyone already knows this is because touhou worked so well.

touhou

Stop blaming Touhou for a trend that has been escalating in anime, manga and virtually all other forms of entertainment aimed at lonely Japanese nerds long before Touhou became the phenomenon it is today.

You're demonstrating your ignorance of the subject. Elixir is correct.

They existed before touhou, but touhou is the one that started the huge swarm clones we see today. It isn't the root of the loli storm, but is more the first really popular loli shmup, and thus responsible for spreading lolis into shmups. I actually like the gameplay of the series (find where the bullets won't be rather than dodge on reflex), but I don't like the flood of low-quality clones that its success brought.

Devil REI, I personally feel that touhou caused a major change in direction, but otherwise agree that touhou was just a transport medium, not the originator. I play the games, but also play ikaruga and some not touhou-clone doujin shooters (currently playing blue wish ressurestion+) The swarm of clones really needs to go away though.

[Schrodinger's cat]

This has been the best thread here in a while. Great read.

I am someone who grew up playing old NES and genesis shooters, enjoyed them a lot, but never considered myself to be fan of the genre until I discovered Cave shooters a few years ago. Cave single-handedly changed me from someone with a passing interest into a big fan of shooters, and brought all of the non-danmaku and danmaku shooters I've been missing out on for most of my life into the spotlight. So as someone who enjoys shooters both new and old, I can sympathize with the opposing opinions expressed here.

I think it's a lot easier for people to see the differences and nuances in genres of things that they like rather than what they don't. If you like Aphex Twin or Squarepusher you can probably tell one from the other but if you don't, chances are it's going to sound like a bunch of bleeps, bloops, and gibberish to you. Same thing with shooters. Dodonpachi, DOJ, Galuda, and Mushi all feel vastly different to me, but someone who hates danmaku type games is going to feel like it's all the same shit being done over and over again. On the other hand, I'm sure there are a bunch of people who think that older shooters have all been done to death before and think that danmaku is the genre's saving grace. Any games that are part of genres that people don't enjoy are probably going to feel like they lack personality. It's all a matter of taste more than anything else. Thankfully, I haven't gotten totally sick of any shooter sub-genres yet.

As far as stage design goes, my opinion is that having an interesting setting, flow, and range of enemy types/patterns/placements matters more than having built-in stage obstacles like walls/boxes/etc. Some games are better with obstructions, while others are less fun. I know people are going to disagree with me here, but I really don't care for many of Ikaruga's walls and obstructions that much. Something about the placement/design just doesn't feel fun or exciting to me. Maybe it's because I feel that the stages scroll a bit too slowly, especially in stage 2 and the first half of 3. On the other hand, I really like how obstructions are done in Thunder Force III, Guwange, and Steel Empire. In Steel Empire, there's that stage 2 midboss that causes a cave-in to occur when you defeat it, so you have to fly in the opposite direction dodging rock formations while shooting boulders that are in your path at top speed. Definitely one of the coolest moments in the game. My point though is that good level design is independent of whether or not it contains obstructive scenery. I would rather dodge a well crafted wall of bullets any day over poorly crafted stage obstructions.

[Mad Mage]

You guys make it sound like a shmup featuring little girls ruins it. Big deal. If it's a good game, I don't care what you play as.

Also, I think the reason we are seeing danmaku shmups and not much else, is because that's what most shmupers want. Ever since I got into Cave, I have trouble going back to the older shmups. They just feel less balanced and a lot less intense. Danmaku shmups keep the action flowing and constantly challenging. Older shmups may offer more variety, but with that comes boring spots and cheap kills imo.

I wouldn't mind some more variety in the shmups released, and I agree the newer Cave shmups have less personality in their stage design and that the bosses are just blobs which shoot bullets, but I feel it can not be denied that they are damn fine shmups. I see them as an evolution.

[Ganelon]

Image Fight just reminded me what I like about Raiden games: you can tell each and every enemy is out there to kill you. Because they, you know, behave like that: shoot things at your position or try to ram into you. Designing such behaviour isn't exactly rocket science, is it?

Actually, Image Fight is superbly designed with much more intent than throwing out a difficult-to-navigate bullet pattern. It's not as simple as Raiden or most other shooters of the time. Most parts of its design have set purposes. As I've said before about the Image Fight duo:

"They're aggravating at first but rather than forcing dull memorization upon you, they focus on punishing bad practices like greedily snatching power-ups at first notice, getting lazy when an enemy passes you, losing caution in dull situations, staying directly in front of bosses, not zeroing in on enemies, abusing supposed safe spots, not using your head, and all that other good stuff you'll need to be aware of to excel at other classic shooters."

While it may be disappointing to those prefering the other styles, saying it's a bad thing Cave is still alive is bullshit. It also kinda pisses me off that when a garegga style shmup is finally made again (Ibara) most people hate it because it's not perfect or some reason I can't understand.

Come now, nobody is wishing bad things on Cave. People are only wishing that other developers were adding some much-needed variety. Plus, I bet many folks preferred Ibara to the usual fare. I know I did. But once again, the Cave majority drowned out the rest. It sucks too because it's hard to find fault with Cave games. The 2D visuals are excellent, the trance music superb, the controls silky smooth, the scoring system a lifetime to master, the core mechanics very fun. The problem is that they only represent 1 facet of shooters. Prime rib tastes excellent but there's no way I can eat it with slight variation for weeks on end without getting tired.

You should give discounts to people who bought the first version. PB does look like a huge improvement visually.

Thanks to our convincing, they actually did offer just that, but only for a limited time pre-release. It may be worth their while to keep it as an ongoing promotion of their product but that would be their decision to make.

Also, I think the reason we are seeing danmaku shmups and not much else, is because that's what most shmupers want.

Well, that's true. All these diehard shooter fans require difficulty and danmaku is the most straightforward way to bring that. It's very sad that loli is also the preferred style of anime nowadays simply because I personally have no interest in it at all. If not for shows like Gundam, it'd feel like my era has already passed. But hopefully, things will cycle on through.

[Zweihander]

You guys make it sound like a shmup featuring little girls ruins it. Big deal. If it's a good game, I don't care what you play as.

BUT THAT'S THE POINT, the "little girls" trend was brought on by Touhou, which hasn't been good for years.

[Ghegs]

I never said/implied visuals didn't make a game more enjoyable. My point is, like you yourself said, these visuals don't change the gameplay, which seems to make Ghegs' post contradict itself. He says that you might as well have a blank background in Cave-style games because it has no effect on gameplay. But he doesn't consider the fact that this applies to EVERY SHMUP, while praising the visuals of traditional shmups.

You're right, the visuals are just visuals. But I'd also say whether an obstacle is a solid wall or a wall of bullets does make a subtle difference in the gameplay, as you said yourself. I don't think either approach is automatically better than the one, it really depends on how the rest of the game is designed. But personally, I prefer the solid wall, because it gives me this feeling of connection between the stage and my spaceship/fighterjet/magical loli. This connection only exists inside the player's head, I'm quite aware of that. But I don't get that feeling when I'm only dodging walls of bullets, to me it feels disconnected from stage itself, and as a consequence I can't really get into the game.

Well, you could replace the path-obstructing obstacles with big black boxes and it'd be the same thing, too, right? Visuals are just visuals. You could replace all hitboxes of all types with colored squares in every sub-genre of shmup and it would work.

This is an interesting comment, as one of the doujin games Observer linked to earlier, exception pretty much does exactly that. Yet even the simple big black boxes in the game give me that feeling of connection I mentioned. And the way the boxes work they really aren't interchangeable with bullets. It's a bit like the asteroid boss battle in Stage 5 (I think it was?) of Gradius V. Plenty of rocks flying around, all hazardous to you, but you also need to take advantage of them in order to survive the boss' attacks. That's a great example where I don't think a wall of bullets could replace, or be a better choice than the solid obstacle. Because it has been designed to really take advantage of some of the possibilites of solid obstacles that walls of bullets don't have.

Also, can you elaborate on why you think a wall of bullets as an obstacle would add more depth to the game as opposed to a solid wall?

I disagree.

I'm not exactly sure what you're disagreeing with. My post basically says "Whole lotta danmaku around nowadays, not so much of the other types, which I like better" while your says "There'll always be more danmaku in general". Those two statements don't seem at odds with each other. Can you explain a bit?

[orange]

You guys make it sound like a shmup featuring little girls ruins it. Big deal. If it's a good game, I don't care what you play as.

BUT THAT'S THE POINT, the "little girls" trend was brought on by Touhou, which was never good.

[Elixir]

They existed before touhou, but touhou is the one that started the huge swarm clones we see today. It isn't the root of the loli storm, but is more the first really popular loli shmup, and thus responsible for spreading lolis into shmups. I actually like the gameplay of the series (find where the bullets won't be rather than dodge on reflex), but I don't like the flood of low-quality clones that its success brought.

This is a Touhou clone:



This is not a Touhou clone:



Just because something has characters in it, lots of bullets and lots of points, doesn't make it a Touhou clone. I would like to know where the masses of Touhou clones you're seeing actually come from.

[ncp]

Well, you could replace the path-obstructing obstacles with big black boxes and it'd be the same thing, too, right? Visuals are just visuals. You could replace all hitboxes of all types with colored squares in every sub-genre of shmup and it would work.

This is an interesting comment, as one of the doujin games Observer linked to earlier, exception pretty much does exactly that. Yet even the simple big black boxes in the game give me that feeling of connection I mentioned. And the way the boxes work they really aren't interchangeable with bullets. It's a bit like the asteroid boss battle in Stage 5 (I think it was?) of Gradius V. Plenty of rocks flying around, all hazardous to you, but you also need to take advantage of them in order to survive the boss' attacks. That's a great example where I don't think a wall of bullets could replace, or be a better choice than the solid obstacle. Because it has been designed to really take advantage of some of the possibilites of solid obstacles that walls of bullets don't have.

Well shit you got me there, I wasn't really thinking about the defensive use of solid walls, which is kinda surprising considering I play Gradius V quite a lot. I'll admit, solid walls do change the gameplay, but when people say that the lack of walls/interactive backgrounds ruin a game, I can just never relate, because it was never really a big deal for me, which is probably why I'm more of a fan of the danmaku style (although it's not like I haven't played a decent amount of horis/"traditional" shmups). In fact, when I think about it, I pretty much prefer not to have solid walls, I like being able to move throughout the entire screen.

Also, can you elaborate on why you think a wall of bullets as an obstacle would add more depth to the game as opposed to a solid wall?

To be honest, I don't even remember where I was going with that. It probably made sense to me when I typed it... I think I was thinking about "walls" of bullets that can be manipulated to go to different spots on the screen, but still end up functioning as a wall. Derp.

[charlie chong]

i do love them cavez but the games seem to have lost something ever since mushimesama(for me personally i know others who think the opposite). the sh3 system games are just so slowdown riddled (whether programmed because of the difficulty or hardware problem because there's so much spam on screen i am not a fan of it!).i don't like the visible hit boxes for some reason either and i dunno i just find myself a bit disconnected to the treacle slowdown and donkey kong country graphics.also i find the controls a bit floaty but that is probably down to feeling disconnected to the game

muchi pork is really fun tho thinking back.. really memorable bosses with destructible parts,cool looking military enemies and the scoring is good too(it was riddled with slowdown tho,end of level 4 ! death smiles should also be commended for being fresh !

if even long time cave lovers feel a bit fed up with the way the company is taking the games then i think people who never really clicked with danmaku shooters are going to be real fed up with the way the genre is going at the moment

[orange]

i see disconnected is becoming a new buzzword

[EinhanderZwei]

Well, time for me to halt the random 'to ass with loli style' shouts and say something serious:

As I've mentioned in the Self-Introduction Thread, currently I am working on a historical research on the shmup genre in general. To make it short, that's how personally I divide the whole timeline:

- before Scramble - shoot! shoot! shoot!

- between Scramble and Gradius - setting up all the genre's industry standards (different level designs, bosses, power-ups, the Option concept, etc.)

- somewhere in the same timeslot Toaplan is founded - do I need to mention all the shmups that it's respected for?

- here comes R-Type from then-unknown Irem and changes everything. Just everything. The concept of tactics and memorization is born

- then Compile releases Zanac - one of the first notable PC shmups, before it was ported to NES - and goes on to conquer the world with Aleste

- thus begins what I'd call the Golden Age of shmups - TOO many games to list even the most notable ones! Though I can tell that the most important to the genre's evolution are Raiden and Batsugun, because...

- ...they along with Image Fight become the inspiration for Cave's first game. We all know WHAT hell of a game it was

- so, danmaku shmups are born, reviving the genre and making the fanbase even more solid

I'd like to think of danmaku shmups as one more way to evolve the genre, but not the only one. Truth is, silly trends are the problem of all the game genres - androgynous RPG characters, GI Joe'ish (if not cheesier) FPS characters, the cult of supid and non-sensical violence promoted by Rockstar (notable for having only ONE game series that can be taken seriously)... and the same stuff with the shooters. Despite all the acid I've spit out in this topic, I am sure that loli trends won't be eternal. I'd point out the following possible (and enjoyable, I gotta admit) ways for the genre to follow in the future:

> Return to classic manly 'badass pilot VS gross aliens' aesthetic

> Return to non-loli cute 'em up style - for example, kodomo (Japanese for 'little kids') stuff like Air Zonk

> The shmup devs starting to put some real effort into storylines (just imagine a classy/classic hori space shooter with Metal Gear'esque narrative! That's gonna be totally awesome)

> Combining danmaku and oldschool gameplay styles (like Ikaruga and PS2 Cho Aniki did)

> Uninspired but actually neat - follow R-Type Dimensions and remake all the classics in HD graphics. That would be a nice way to bring in some rookies to the genre

Bottom line: I still fuckin' hate lolis, but in such case the best option would be to have patience. Shmuppers are not that stupid to enjoy current trends forever

Oh, and one more...

About the 'wall obstacles VS bullet obstacles'. I'd hate to admit it, but there exists Thunder Force II. I can't imagine replacing the walls in overhead stages with bullets. Or is it one more shmup trend prediction?

[boagman]

Just so there's no mistaking, I'm absolutely in agreement with Ghegs on the whole issue, and it's entirely possible that I'm a bit more emphatic than he is, because verts just don't do it for me the way that horis do. That being said, I have to take the "background interaction doesn't matter" people to the forefront again.

It isn't just walls that can be replaced with bullets. There are other reasons that backgrounds are so very important, and not just for a "Wow!" factor. Using backgrounds correctly to interact with the player's ship really adds more depth and strategy to the way one might choose to play a certain stage. Those waterfalls there...will they affect the trajectory of my ship if I fly through them? That cave entrance there...will new enemy ships scale out from there and attack mine? That rock formation there...is it static, or could an enemy missile (or my own?) cause it to explode and send the possibly dangerous rocks my way? The water my ship is currently traveling in...is there a dangerous undercurrent that threatens to pull or push my ship? Those barrels...will they cause a dangerous explosion to me or to the enemies around them?

I happen to *really* enjoy thinking man's shooters...and I like 'em hard. Go ahead and punish me for not having seen this part of the game before...I'll learn! But some of the above ideas can be found in many of the best games, and basically *none* of them can be found in any bullet hell shmups.

Background interaction is *very* important to some of us, and it's rarely a part of the equation any more.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Actually, Image Fight is superbly designed with much more intent than throwing out a difficult-to-navigate bullet pattern. It's not as simple as Raiden or most other shooters of the time. Most parts of its design have set purposes. As I've said before about the Image Fight duo:

"They're aggravating at first but rather than forcing dull memorization upon you, they focus on punishing bad practices like greedily snatching power-ups at first notice, getting lazy when an enemy passes you, losing caution in dull situations, staying directly in front of bosses, not zeroing in on enemies, abusing supposed safe spots, not using your head, and all that other good stuff you'll need to be aware of to excel at other classic shooters."

Oh, I respect Image Fight. Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. As far as I can tell, Image Fight's selling point is the fact nothing just flies by; everything wants your blood on their hands. I don't know many games designed like that; even R-Types have lots of theoretically hostile stuff you can just ignore. My point is: a game designed much like Image Fight, where every destructible thing actively tries to kill you, could be a bloody intense and challenging game with neither bullet hell nor puny hitboxes. Seems to me like Image Fight established a subgenre waiting for a major refinement. That could be pretty refreshing.

[charlie chong]

i see disconnected is becoming a new buzzword

nah not new i've felt this in many vert shooter games since about 2003 especially the ones with more modern style graphics like the shikigami series/naomi ports etc some of them even make me feel a bit sick if i don't try and ignore the backround

[Skykid]

I'm regressing from current-gen in favour of traditional 2D gaming to such a degree already, If I became disillusioned with danmaku shmups as well I'd be really fucked.

Don't look a gift-horse in the mouth is what I say, as long as it plays well I wouldn't even care if it was rife with pornography.

[Kyle]

I'm regressing from current-gen in favour of traditional 2D gaming to such a degree already, If I became disillusioned with danmaku shmups as well I'd be really fucked.

Don't look a gift-horse in the mouth is what I say, as long as it plays well I wouldn't even care if it was rife with pornography.

I'd have to agree with this. How many companies are actively developing shmups that aren't indie operations? I'd be surprised if it's profitable to even try. If I mentioned the name Cave to a 'gamer' friend they wouldn't have the slightest idea what I was talking about. I'd have to approach it like "Remember Galaga?"

There was a comparison to music earlier. I like Death Metal which is another fringe market that doesn't have a mass appeal. Hell, some of the more establish bands have day jobs. How glamorous is that for a rock star? I like the older stuff that doesn't try to cater to what people are into today (melodic/technical/borderline prog). Most people think it's all garbage in the same way that all shmups are "space shooters" to the average person.

[Voxbox]

i see disconnected is becoming a new buzzword

Man I feel disconnected from todays buzzwords

On the whole wall-obstacles vs bullet-obstacles thing, I really don't think they can be compared. I couldn't say that bullet patterns got character, while environments in good cases completely reeks of it, whether you dodge it, destory it, or just look at it.

[linko9]

Wow, I didn't know there was so much Touhou hate round here. I've only played the first two windows games extensively, but I loved them both. I don't particularly like the art style, though I like the look of the bullets, and some of the synth instruments are grating, but other than that I thought they were both great games; some of my favorite shmups. Also, they're what got me back into the genre after many years of absence. I would have never known that Cave, or Toaplan, or Raizing, or even Seibu existed if not for Touhou. What is it that people dislike about the games so much (other than the art style)? I think the bullet patterns are great, and while the enemy sprites aren't very varied, they get the job done, and force you to pay attention to shooting as well as dodging since the bosses don't take up the whole screen (not that I have a problem with that; I love Toaplan-style bosses).

Anyway, I'd certainly like to see a bit more variety in shmups these days, but I personally like the Cave stuff pretty much, and there's still a lot of older shmups I've yet to play. I do agree that the pseudo-pedophile stuff is not cool; I'd love it if all Anime disappeared from shmups, but that's just wishful thinking, and it doesn't bother me too much.

[GrimoreLibrarian]

This is a Touhou clone:

image

This is not a Touhou clone:

image

Just because something has characters in it, lots of bullets and lots of points, doesn't make it a Touhou clone. I would like to know where the masses of Touhou clones you're seeing actually come from.

Strangely, other than one having better sprite resolution, they look the same.

Any ways, I do agree that shmups today are now following the new gold standard that is now bullet diarrhea. I feel disappointed when ever I finally reach a TLB only to find out it's something really tiny that gets obscured under a vortex of bullets. Bosses them selves need to be intimidating. They need to look like they will punch you int eh face and say nasty things about your mother. Like the stage 5 mid-boss from Einhander, seriously, that is one of my all time favorite boss fights.

If Any thing, I would say the best Shmup boss would be something that multi-forms, each bigger and/or cooler looking than the last. Something that has 100+ ways of killing you, ranging from lasers, bigger lasers, homing lasers, various missiles, punching, kicking, swatting, tea bagging, and throwing scenery at you.

I want a shmup boss that has a giant multi-headed dragon that barfs ninjas that turns into homing lasers.I want something that will be cool to fight, something that I can show my friends to prove my masculinity. I should feel accomplished for killing a mighty beast, or a Lovecraftian horror. Not some little girl, or some fly over compensating with a recycled bullet vortex.

A Shoot 'em Up should be a mans game.

[Zweihander]

I wish we could have another shmup like Crisis Force or the later Aleste games. Bullet patterns could get intense at times, and there was the element of dodging obstacles or moving walls, as well.

I also think Grind Stormer was one of the pioneer bullet-hell games, since if you didn't die every now and then, rank would kick in, and fuck you sideways with advanced versions of patterns which can't really be described as anything less than "mild danmaku", especially when you have your whole ship's hitbox to work with.

[Observer]

I want a shmup boss that has a giant multi-headed dragon that barfs ninjas that turns into homing lasers.I want something that will be cool to fight, something that I can show my friends to prove my masculinity. I should feel accomplished for killing a mighty beast, or a Lovecraftian horror. Not some little girl, or some fly over compensating with a recycled bullet vortex.

A Shoot 'em Up should be a mans game.

Reminds me of the final boss from RefleX. It pretty much unloads enough firepower to take down planets.

G-Darius clearly delivers in terms of size. The fishes get bigger and crazier. GREAT THING.

RayForce also gives you that sense that something gigantic is coming for you with Con-Human units all over the place out for blood, turning Earth into a mobile fortress.

Or Radiant Silvergun. In Saturn Mode you get to fight all those crazy bosses before facing XIGA, surreal karate guy. Or the Bydo Core, or the final boss from Blazing Star.

I would still love to see beasts like the Guardian Dragon or Atolm from the Panzer Dragoon series, heck, Els Enora was gigantic and you get to fight that deformed statue too...

Obviously, my prototype of "gigantic boss fight" is a ridiculous, tiny Macross Valkyrie vs. a Zentraedi Nupetiet-Vergnitzs, you know, those trademark 'cigarette' ships that seemed to be inspired on the old UFO sightings. Looking at that mecha game from G.Rev, maybe we might be getting something like that... DECULCHAAAAA!

Well, just wanted to ramble a bit about Macross, been watching some silly Itano Circus displays.

But, yeah, we need more enemies and bosses that aren't just a bullet-spawn point/placeholder. Who doesn't want deployable missile tables, enormous battlecruisers with infinite ammo autocannons, gauss rifles, ER-PPCs and mecha bays with manly mecha firing oversized rounds of explosive happiness? mmm, RayStorm has quite a lot of this...

[Elixir]

Strangely, other than one having better sprite resolution, they look the same.

So you've played neither of them?