The state of shmups today? (Or: Rantings of an old man)

[MathU]

Well I, for one, think Raiden IV is awesome.

[EinhanderZwei]

I'm definitely with Ghegs. Is it so hard to create a new memorizer shooter nowadays? So many loli characters. And it's like the background is just wallpaper; no interactivity. And those sickening sweet gumdrop bullets. Great for everybody who likes that stuff but I'd appreciate some variety too. The only problem is if someone releases anything more traditional, it gets bashed for being "a simple and outdated memorizer."

I agree. All those loli characters, sweet bullets and toilet-paper-roll stage backgrounds piss me off starting from DoDonPachi Dai Ou Jou... It would be okay if all the trendy shmup characters were like Koyori from Sengoku Ace, but currently I find myself cursing any shmup that has lolis in it. Actually, I find such popularity of lolis fuckin' gross Where're my R-Type and Einhander? Real shmups for real men!

[lgb]

R-Type is definitely the shmup of men

[Thunder Force]

I agree with much of what Ghegs said, although I do enjoy this newer style of shmups too.

Same here.

I've felt similarly to Ghegs for years about some of the obvious shortcomings of bullet hell games, but it doesn't bother me so much, since I have access to a huge back catalogue of non-danmaku retro shmups to play whenever I want. Plus we just saw a new Thunderforce game released, so I can't really complain. And I've personally learned to enjoy danmaku, by just playing them for survival, and ignoring obscure scoring systems that sometimes seem like boring mathematics to me.

I feel it's natural for game genres to go through a different "trendy" phase ever few decades. And danmaku still isn't the only new game in town. There has been a huge resurgance in arena shmups like Super Stardust HD too, in the past decade, for example.

I've felt disconnected to the shmup community. I don't really like Cave's games. This isn't because I think they're bad games, they're just not to my taste. I'm just not that interested in danmaku shmups. And sadly, it seems those are the only ones we see made nowadays.

Don't feel disconnected, for not liking Cave games. Cave fans are just vocal (which is not a bad thing). There are plenty of hardcore gamers out there who love retro shmups but loathe bullet hell games, if you need evidence see Episode #164 (?) of the ex-EGM Player One Podcast show a few weeks ago. I would actually wager that the total number of non-danmaku shmup fans out in the "real world" (read: non-internet forums), would be 10-100 times larger than the total number of danmaku fans, at least in the west. Japan might be a different story...

[Elixir]

As for all the magical loli shmups, I can easily tell you where all those came from:
1. Somebody makes a popular game (touhou series)
2. other people see the popularity and copy (swarm of other magical loli shmups)
3. Original is forgotten, all games of the type become hated by everyone except fans of the original (happening right now)

Short explanation: everyone is copying touhou.

I can easily tell you that you explanation is wrong. Lolis existed in shmups before Touhou so your theory here doesn't make any sense.

[wiNteR]

Well I think part of the problem is that there are so few developers around. And the reason for the lack of developers (good ones atleast) is the lack of popularity in the mainstream. If we look at games by GRev and Treasure, there is a lot of variation in their games. It's fair to say that they introduce different ideas with each of their games. But just the number of games made by them is so low.

I think that these games need to move from a standard model of game clear to a stage attack model. Basically instead of having a complete run at a game in one sitting, you can play out of many different stages (say 30). Each stage is a 5 or 10min whole in itself, so the scores would also be kept for individual stages only. We already have games using 7 or 8 different settings. For 30 stages, you could use 10 different environments with 3 stages for each setting, for example.

I will admit though that this type of model will increase development budget and it isn't likely to happen, unless these games get more recognition. Why am I suggesting this model? Because this type of structure can offer to create a progression based gameplay, while also retaining the sensibilities of good arcade gameplay. You don't progress through a level unless you clear it with lives allotted. And do not mistake this, players love progression these days. Basically if you see the Capcom games for some time now, they are doing something similar, rewarding and grading the player on individual levels, while retaining a progression based gameplay.

Basically I think that recognition in mainstream (atleast to a certain extent) is very important. Unless the developers have budget and a margin to do something different they simply won't take a risk. Danmaku is the relatively easier and more risk free strategy for now. Even if the devs. do decide to do (like GRev or Treasure) games that vary significantly from the standard danmaku style, they will not come frequently.

[Lynx Winters]

I am a fan of danmaku games, but I'm almost as big a fan of non-danmaku stuff. The difference to me isn't so much in old school vs new school, it's how well any given game pulls off its chosen type of shooter. Cave does danmaku games really well for the most part, and I can generally get over the art design if it's not my cup of tea as long as the way the game plays works for me.

I'm not sure if you'd count Yagawa's games as danmaku (I don't, mostly) but I would love to see more games like those. Batrider is one of my favorite games of any genre, and both PCBs I own are Yagawa games (Batrider and Ibara). You want to talk about the stages being more than wallpaper behind clouds of bullets, many of Raizing's entries to the genre were all about stage interaction. Yes, that interaction was blowing things up but it's a shooter, not an RPG. I know Ibara and Pink Sweets didn't do so hot but I really hope Cave lets Yagawa out of the cage once in a while to make his kind of shooter again in the near future.

[drunkninja24]

I'm definitely with Ghegs. Is it so hard to create a new memorizer shooter nowadays? So many loli characters. And it's like the background is just wallpaper; no interactivity. And those sickening sweet gumdrop bullets. Great for everybody who likes that stuff but I'd appreciate some variety too. The only problem is if someone releases anything more traditional, it gets bashed for being "a simple and outdated memorizer."

I agree. All those loli characters, sweet bullets and toilet-paper-roll stage backgrounds piss me off starting from DoDonPachi Dai Ou Jou... It would be okay if all the trendy shmup characters were like Koyori from Sengoku Ace, but currently I find myself cursing any shmup that has lolis in it. Actually, I find such popularity of lolis fuckin' gross Where're my R-Type and Einhander? Real shmups for real men!

The only real part of this that bugs me are the lolis. I just don't see the appeal. I mean, many of the games themselves are great, but the whole loli aesthetic just annoys me, especially with how prolific it seems to have become. Cave (and other devs) needs to look back at games like Ketsui and realize that they don't have to dress their games up with lolis to make them popular, just make them good.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

For wiNteR,

If you play the CPS-1 game of Varth, Capcom has already made a 30 stage arcade shmup title. Trying Varth out at the Circus-Circus casino arcade in Reno back in the mid-1990s, I could only reach up to stage 24 and hit a brick wall (meaning I couldn't progress any further than that). It really is a long and tedious shmup title in it's own right. I'm sure if the Dynamo woodie cabinet had built-in auto-fire capability from the get-go, I could whiz through all 30 stages in no time flat. Since it didn't, I had to make do with stock Happ Competition joysticks and push buttons endowed on the control panel.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Rob]

There are plenty of hardcore gamers out there who love retro shmups but loathe bullet hell games, if you need evidence see Episode #164 (?) of the ex-EGM Player One Podcast show a few weeks ago.

What an annoying bunch.

[Ghegs]

Wow, the thread got some nice discussion into it. And I'm surprised to see so many people agreeing, at least partially, with my take on this. Like Thunder Force said, the Cave fans are more vocal, and that's only to be expected when Cave's the one still releasing these games. Good to know there's still a place and need for the other shmup styles as well.

G Darius had some cool backgrounds but I think it also had the same problem you have with Cave games, like the action sits in front of a projection screen. Especially true for G Darius since there are some really over-the-top scenes that weren't even close to being matched by action.

I think G-Darius is a nice midway point between games like R-Type and Progear. There are few environmental hazards in some stages but nothing that'll scream "memorizer!!!" and the bosses are just superb. And the scoring system is pretty neat. Functional and interesting yet unobtrusive enough if one wants to ignore it, with the boss beam battles also working as a very satisfying visual reward. But yeah, there are times when the stages and the gameplay feel detached there.

I honestly think DeathSmiles is the kind of fusion you ask for at the end of your piece

Games like Guwange and Deathsmiles(I have to disagree with that) have stage interaction, and I think they have lots of personality.

You're absolutely right, DeathSmiles does have more of the gameplay and stage design which I long for. Even though I have the game I haven't played it much at all (probably less than an hour in total) for whatever reason. I didn't think that namedrop all the way through. I'll have to give it a proper go sooner or later.

And AraraSPAMWitch, you probably hit the nail right on the head on how the developers think they've reached the limit of what they can do with more traditional shmups. The change to danmaku was certainly welcome and needed at the time. And now with the approach of that subgenre's ceiling approaching or already here, we can hope we'll have bit of a return to the older times and end up with something of a balance between the old and the new.

namedump

Thanks for those. I'm familiar with most of them (I even own physical copies of Cloudphobia and Ether Vapor, and have cleared the latter several times) but there were few new ones to me. Crimzon Clover is something I've been checking on every now and then...it doesn't seem to break away from the Cave mold all that much, but I'm definitely gonna give it a try when the demo is out.

I feel it's natural for game genres to go through a different "trendy" phase ever few decades.

Of course, all trends are cyclical. By the time Gradius VI rolls out we'll all be wearing parachute pants.

[cfx]

.

[Zweihander]

You know, even in the days of Keio Flying Squadron and Cotton, the attraction wasn't the lolis, it was the fucking gameplay. Which every Touhou after Imperishable Night has nothing of. While I personally liked PoFV, it's solely nostalgia because that was my first Touhou and it's fun with a friend, though single player is either too easy or too cheap (much like Twinkle Star Sprites before it) and it's just a messy take on that game's formula anyway. Zun didn't know the difference between Power Levels and Bombs when he made #10 and #11, and #12 is gimmicky as shit once you get past the first 10 minutes of fun. Shit, look at the loli shmups by Murasame/ Platine Dispositif. Sure, they have lolis, but they have intense yet fun gameplay, a scoring system that works with the gameplay's basic/natural flow (and doesn't force you to do retarded shit, like in Touhou #10-12), and boss fights which actually present CHALLENGING PATTERNS and not just rainbow-colored Skittle mazes a 5-year-old could navigate. Not to mention, multiple facets to the gameplay, which require a few playthroughs from the average shmupper to work out a strategy and take full advantage of the system, unlike (again) any Touhou after #8.

[EinhanderZwei]

You know, even in the days of Keio Flying Squadron and Cotton

Yeeeah, that's what should've been mentioned first of all. I really enjoyed the kawaii art style of those two and Twinkle Star Sprites of course, and for me they're an example of HOW should the cute girly shmups look. And yeah, gameplay - that helps too

[TrevHead (TVR)]

It seems to me that nearly any game that isn't danmaku gets shit upon by this forum, so I wonder if there really is any market for them any more. Of course it doesn't help that we get non-danmaku games that I consider poor as well, like TFVI was.

Personally i think there might be (in the west) more demand for non danmaku then danmaku. Its just that the "hardcore" bullet hell gamer is alot more vocal but that might be more to do with us guys actually having new games made that we can talk about. All the non danmaku / classic gamer gets to talk about is how great R-type is for the 1067th time.

(ignoring r-type / gradius clones) i think atm japan is too mad for bullet-hell to make classic/ non danmaku/ non loli style shooters, (or atleast more then the odd doujin every now and again) It might be better looking towards western indie developers for these type of games, and just hope they arnt too euroshmup or casual. Which makes sence since thats where the demand is, not in japan.

[cools]

I'm not sure if you'd count Yagawa's games as danmaku (I don't, mostly) but I would love to see more games like those. Batrider is one of my favorite games of any genre, and both PCBs I own are Yagawa games (Batrider and Ibara). You want to talk about the stages being more than wallpaper behind clouds of bullets, many of Raizing's entries to the genre were all about stage interaction. Yes, that interaction was blowing things up but it's a shooter, not an RPG. I know Ibara and Pink Sweets didn't do so hot but I really hope Cave lets Yagawa out of the cage once in a while to make his kind of shooter again in the near future.

This x1000. All of the Cave danmaku stuff I've played has been fun for a while, but once that initial love-in was past I've rapidly lost interest. Not so with Yagawa's games.

[Zweihander]

It seems to me that nearly any game that isn't danmaku gets shit upon by this forum, so I wonder if there really is any market for them any more. Of course it doesn't help that we get non-danmaku games that I consider poor as well, like TFVI was.

Personally i think there might be (in the west) more demand for non danmaku then danmaku. Its just that the "hardcore" bullet hell gamer is alot more vocal but that might be more to do with us guys actually having new games made that we can talk about. All the non danmaku / classic gamer gets to talk about is how great R-type is for the 1067th time.

(ignoring r-type / gradius clones) i think atm japan is too mad for bullet-hell to make classic/ non danmaku/ non loli style shooters, (or atleast more then the odd doujin every now and again) It might be better looking towards western indie developers for these type of games, and just hope they arnt too euroshmup or casual. Which makes sence since thats where the demand is, not in japan.

At least we got Tumiki Fighters: Wii Edition.

[THE]

For the people crying here:

Ask yourself, did you give Last Hope: Pink Bullets a real chance?

[TrevHead (TVR)]

For the people crying here:

Ask yourself, did you give Last Hope: Pink Bullets a real chance?

Sure there is the odd game released every now and again, although most copy too much from r-type or gradius. Not that copying is a too bad a thing per-say. Its just that these clones are ten a penney and usually dont bring anything freash to the table. (although pink bullets looks to be a fun game from the vids ive seen, also DUX is a simler game aswell)

We could do with a list of all the modern non- danmaku verts and horis thats out there (including good doujin/indie shmups but exluding the overly casual and flash tat). I bet if we looked far enough there would be a pritty large list. Still a simler list of only bullet hell shmups would totally dwarf it.

the only ones i can think of atm are Raiden 3/4, Last Hope PB and DUX

[Obiwanshinobi]

Image Fight just reminded me what I like about Raiden games: you can tell each and every enemy is out there to kill you. Because they, you know, behave like that: shoot things at your position or try to ram into you. Designing such behaviour isn't exactly rocket science, is it? It's like some developers forgot they can keep the gamers excited without poncing around with fireworks and confetti. Personally I'm okay with less things moving on screen as long as they are deadly enough to keep me busy.
I thought the reason why bullet hell shmups don't click with me is the tiny hitboxes which feel a bit like cheating but hey, I do like Gradius V. Now I think in the midst of bullet hell spectacle things get more abstract. It doesn't feel like fighting the enemy anymore; it feels like roasting the pocporn for the sake of getting high score. A cooking game. I don't dislike abstract shooters and I like, say, collecting jewels or medals or coins, but really, you still can do a pure "kill to survive" shooting game.

[Ebbo]

I wholeheartedly agree with Ghegs. Especially these points:

I'm honestly surprised that the doujin community is so fixated on creating danmaku shmups. I can't tell the many "magical girl shooting out a gazillion bullets" -shmups apart.

Secondly, bosses have been replaced by bullet spawn points. Elaborate bullet patterns are shot out but the boss shooting them might as well be a shapeless blob. And sometimes they are, actually. The point is, there is no connection between the boss' graphical design and the design of their attacks. This makes the visual design feel, to me, very generic and interchangeable.

This actually reminds me alot of current situtation of Fraxy. In short, Fraxy is an editor which lets you design your own shmup bosses or even campaigns and play them. However, most Fraxy players simply design danmaku like bosses, which is rather unappealing considering how capable the editor actually is.

[RHE]

Yeah, DoDoDonPachiOrDie!

I agree to 100% with the original poster, we certainly don't need less danmakus, we just need more shmups of all kind. But the big questions for me is: is there still a target group for shmups other than bullet hell and are they strong enough?

I don't see all this as a huge issue though, because Raiden and R-Type got their time and then the causal danmaku and now it's loli bullet hell. In a few years, there's probably something else - increasing the amount of bullets alone is just not doing it on a longer term. CAVE is already realizing this by making games like Death Smiles and stuff.

Its just that these clones are ten a penney and usually don't bring anything freash to the table.

Pink Bullets got an elaborate scoring system, which R-Type doesn't AFAIK. And DUX got the hyper soaking feature, which according to Plasmo gives the game a Psyvariar-ish feel. That's probably not fresh enough for some poeple though, because the problem is, most people only see the R-Type references and pass on the game before they give it a proper chance and so they miss where these games differ.

[Voxbox]

Real shmups for real men!

You called for some Sonic Wings?

Well I think part of the problem is that there are so few developers around. And the reason for the lack of developers (good ones atleast) is the lack of popularity in the mainstream.

Yeah, it's mostly niche or casual-retro these days.

It's not exactly like today's game programmers have it more difficult than the folks who were programming the "classics of the golden age". There's so much more computing power available to them, that the folks of yesteryear would probably have suffered certain cardiac seizure if they'd had as much available to them.

I'd say that shmups from the 90's have immortal gameplay, and good looking 2D is an immortal look, so processing power isn't the big issue. This makes new shmups having to compete with games released 10-20 years ago. It's the same with RPGs, and they have been losing to the oldies for the last 10 years. Other genres are always moving forward. A new FPS isn't competing against Half-Life or Quake 2, they're always competing against their contemporarys.

Had all of this processing power been available to those golden age folks back then, would they still have been able to come up with the same or better games as they did?

Good question, that spawns another one.What's hardest to create, good looking 2D or 3D?

[ncp]

Firstly, stage design has been replaced by bullets. Rarely anymore are there parts of the scenery meant to obstruct the player. Walls, boxes, rock formations, things like that have all disappeared. ... Stage design no longer plays a part in controlling what paths the player can and should take through the stage, that job is now solely handled by the design of enemy movement patterns and the patterns their bullets weave.

I regularly see people talk about this, and I can't really relate. Why is a solid wall blocking your path any better than a wall of bullets blocking your path? In fact, to dictate the player's movement by bullets would seem to add more depth to the game than simply putting a wall in the player's way, which leads into...

It feels like the scenery may just as well be completely black because there's nothing connecting the stage itself to the player.

Well, you could replace the path-obstructing obstacles with big black boxes and it'd be the same thing, too, right? Visuals are just visuals. You could replace all hitboxes of all types with colored squares in every sub-genre of shmup and it would work. In fact, in that case, the only real difference between a wall of bullets and a wall of rock is that the wall of bullets moves faster.

Secondly, bosses have been replaced by bullet spawn points. Elaborate bullet patterns are shot out but the boss shooting them might as well be a shapeless blob. And sometimes they are, actually. The point is, there is no connection between the boss' graphical design and the design of their attacks. This makes the visual design feel, to me, very generic and interchangeable.

True enough. And it's not like it's impossible to do this with danmaku style shmups, look at Dodonpachi's stage 3 boss. That shit's got like 50 different destructible turrets and things on it. I wish they'd do that more in recent games.

I could probably go on, but I guess it's pretty useless since it's all a matter of opinion/taste. Makes me glad I like this style though, cause you're damn right about there being very few (almost none) "traditional" shmups getting released lately. Then again, there's really not even that many danmaku style ones getting released.

[EinhanderZwei]

Well, you could replace the path-obstructing obstacles with big black boxes and it'd be the same thing, too, right? Visuals are just visuals.

I'm raging in disagreement! If the visuals didn't matter, then all the shmups should look like white space+black boxes+black bullets! Look at Pulstar or Blazing Star. Without their awesome graphics and designs they'd be just cheap R-Type rip-offs! Grr

[LSU]

Until about 18 months ago I agreed 100% with Ghegs' original post (even the part about being an old man - I'm 40 now). I just didn't 'get' the modern Cave gameplay aesthetic at all. For me it became a little bit of an acquired taste though, Mushi was the game that bridged the gap for me, maybe the faster bullets and slightly Psikyo-esque influence helped draw me in. I still don't fully click with every game they make (the Galudas' 'bullet-time' just makes them play way too slowly for my taste) but I do like most of their games they release now (Futari, Deathsmiles, Daifukkatsu).

Maybe this has more to do with the fact that today it's just one developer that is really the only truly prolific producer of commercial shmups? So most of the commercial releases have their personality stamped all over them.

However. One nice thing about being a fan of a genre that's been around since the very inception of videogames is that there's a massive catalogue out there to plunder. Like many members of this board I've built up a collection of hundreds of shmups over the years, but my wants list is still literally dozens of games long. I don't just buy new releases, I'm always looking to fill the gaps in my collection and some of them are quite rare and expensive so I doubt I'd ever obtain everything I want. So yes, in an ideal world it'd obviously be great if there were a wider variety of new shmups being developed, but I don't feel we have to rely purely on new releases to get our shmupping fix. There's plenty of history to soak up for variety of styles.

I've also yet to try out the whole doujin shooter scene, since I'm currently a Mac person. But one day I'll get myself a PC and dive into that too.

[TVG]

I disagree.

What is happening today is exactly the same as what is happening in the 90's. I know right now you're about to ask me what the fuck I'm talking about, but read on.

First off, I consider danmaku shooters a direct evolution of the twin cobra/raiden formula. A challenge mostly based around dodging bullets (with a couple things ramming into you), some bonus scoring mechanic (yes the medal system was very primitive in those games, but it was there) and the stage design, small tanks, big aircraft etc with no interaction with the scenery apart from blowing it up. Raizing, Seibu, Cave, and Psikyo made the formula envolve in different directions, it's just that Cave is the only one still alive and kicking. While it may be disappointing to those prefering the other styles, saying it's a bad thing Cave is still alive is bullshit. It also kinda pisses me off that when a garegga style shmup is finally made again (Ibara) most people hate it because it's not perfect or some reason I can't understand.

Hori memorisers, even during the 90's were much less common than verts. There were also prone to be console exclusives (just like RTF, G5, those PSP games, rebirth) while being outnumbered something like 10/2 by verts in the arcades. What we see today is the same thing, minus the actual frequency. You might say that the quality is mediocre with games like otomedius, but then there's trigger heart exelica, which is imo otomedius vertical equivalent. There's just not many companies that do proffesional quality games today.

From what I read here I can see there's people (not everyone) that haven't given the cave games a fair chance either, bosses have turrets and shit you have to destroy, albeit not in futari because it would interfere with the scoring too much. Scenery you can destroy just like in raiden types etc.
Another thing I notice is that some only like those emulated in Mame. Come on, as good as dodonpachi is, DOJ beats the shit out of it in every possible way. Sure it doesn't have hand drawn sprites but is still looks very good, who cares? Hand drawn costs way more to make and I gladly trade it for...these games actually continuing being made.

In short, you'll still get your memorizers, but there'll always be more danmakus and verts in general. A lot of danmaku doujins are made, but come on, how many are actually worth playing?

What worries me more is the art design that's become prevalent right now, ie: lolis. Where is my lone pilot fighting an army of aliens? Where is that atmosphere? As everyone already knows this is because touhou worked so well. There's more touhou fans online than Cave fans. If these trend continues shooters will become even more of a niche when most people get fed up with that and the only public that remains is japanese otakus. Get back to scary aircrafts and evil alien overlords please.

[honorless]

It seems to me that nearly any game that isn't danmaku gets shit upon by this forum

You and Ganelon have said the same thing. I'd like to take either of you up on it. Which shooters do you feel have gotten shat on for "not being danmaku"?
Non-danmaku of recent note:

Raiden IV, RFA, the Hydorah demo, and SIE/SIE2. All received positively.

Mamonoro:

Fun game, and I agree it has a lot of personality, but it falls apart if you try playing it for score.

Otomedius? Well, I think it deserves every bad word anyone has ever spoken of it, and then some. Maybe someone else can deliver an impartial verdict on it; I'm pretty blind to any merits it might have.

You acknowledge that TFIV was "poor".

I can't dismiss your claims entirely; I'm sure a few posters here take hot fat shits on everything but danmaku. (They are also idiots.) But I just listed several prominent examples off the top of my head—all of which were either NOT bashed, or bashed for reasons that have nothing to do with their number of bullets.

The idea that traditional shooters are universally disregarded around here seems very much like an assumption brought on by Cave fans being stupid loud and dominating the forum. I can understand being annoyed by that (sorry ) but not leaping to an incorrect conclusion because of it.

There's so much more computing power available to them, that the folks of yesteryear would probably have suffered certain cardiac seizure if they'd had as much available to them.

This is an important thing to acknowledge.

Students of the fine arts first learn to paint in monochrome. Their first life drawings are 5-30 second gestures. Under these limitations they develop strong artistic and creative foundations, so that when they have a full array of materials they know what the "rules" are (and how/when to break them) in order to produce quality work.

So I agree with Voxbox. It is more difficult for new games to succeed where their predecessors did exactly because most game creators now have access to everything and the kitchen sink from the beginning...but have yet to learn how or when to use that power effectively.

So they just look at what worked for somebody else, and superficially copy it without really understanding how or why it works.
Or stubbornly head in the exact opposite direction, because they want to be seen as unique—not realizing or choosing to ignore that past successes DO have merit and should be considered.

...And a lot of the time, those approaches have acceptable results. But this is not the way to exceed your predecessors.

[EinhanderZwei]

What worries me more is the art design that's become prevalent right now, ie: lolis. Where is my lone pilot fighting an army of aliens? Where is that atmosphere? As everyone already knows this is because touhou worked so well. There's more touhou fans online than Cave fans. If these trend continues shooters will become even more of a niche when most people get fed up with that and the only public that remains is japanese otakus. Get back to scary aircrafts and evil alien overlords please.

Totally, dude! You've just read my mind

Actually, there is a single picture that I believe describes all the BADASSNESS of classic shmups atmosphere. And here it is: http://www.vgmuseum.com/scans/scans3/aleste.jpg

[ncp]

Well, you could replace the path-obstructing obstacles with big black boxes and it'd be the same thing, too, right? Visuals are just visuals.

I'm raging in disagreement! If the visuals didn't matter, then all the shmups should look like white space+black boxes+black bullets! Look at Pulstar or Blazing Star. Without their awesome graphics and designs they'd be just cheap R-Type rip-offs! Grr

So it almost seems you're raging in agreement? I was speaking purely in terms of gameplay, as I think Ghegs was in the particular quote I was responding to. I never said/implied visuals didn't make a game more enjoyable. My point is, like you yourself said, these visuals don't change the gameplay, which seems to make Ghegs' post contradict itself. He says that you might as well have a blank background in Cave-style games because it has no effect on gameplay. But he doesn't consider the fact that this applies to EVERY SHMUP, while praising the visuals of traditional shmups. A stationary wall is just a hitbox, it doesn't matter if it visually blends with the background or not (again, in terms of gameplay). Likewise, a stationary hitbox also has the same effect on gameplay whether it looks like a wall, or a line of slow-moving bullets, they both force you out of the way, they just look different. The only reason taking the background out of one game would hurt it more than another, is if one game RELIES on visuals more, and personally, I wouldn't enjoy a game that relies more on visuals than gameplay. Like I said, though, visuals can undoubtedly make a game more enjoyable, even if the game doesn't rely on them, which is why you can't just take out the backgrounds in danmaku shooters and expect it to be just as good.

edit: I guess what this entire rather poorly-worded post is trying to say: Ghegs likes his hitboxes visually attached to the background, while I personally don't really care whether or not they are.