Edge article on G.Rev, MileStone, Triangle Service

[TGK]

$15 x 2000 (the last figure I heard on Trizeal sales) = $30k. That's $30,000... in Japan. Figure that easily half of that would go to publishers, leaving Triangle Service with maybe $15k to play with... yeah, that's great. Try some math before opening your mouth.

You should try some documentation before the math, thoe, since that sales figure and the percentage for publishers (not to mention that actually Triangle Service published the game by itself) are just your speculation, but anyways, yep, crap material like Trizeal which, indeed, is 95% recycled from a failed arcade game, doesn't deserve more profit than $15,000 for its creator.

Actually, that speculation (the "easily half of...") is accurate, and in fact very optimistic. I get this impression from talking to people in the game business.

Independent publishers (Popcap & Reflexive comes to mind) takes off approx. 40% of the profit. Big ones? Anywhere up to 75%.

Publish a game by yourself is very tough. So I don't know how a small company like TS could do it. Maybe they just put the product for sale on certain websites. In that case, I don't know how much sites like playasia takes away from the sale.

[raiden]

Definitely, we won't agree on this one. I can't see the genre benefiting from any 3D effect, like the ones you mention. A "hybrid" with real time 3D models instead of sprites just can't be the same for me. And, since ROM limitations are not an issue today, why 2D animation could be a problem? If they're too lazy to draw frames, they could even pre-render the models and create the sprites and frames from them. Giga Wing's ships are good examples of this.

at first I thought you had a point, but now I don´t get it anymore. What makes prerendered better than realtime 3d animation? 10 years ago you could have argued for hardware power in prerender models, but given the level of detail and size of models displayed in 2d games, especially shmups, current hardware has no problems animating these in realtime.

But realtime animations allow much more detail and variation compared to prerender models. Prerender inevitably means there´s a limited number of animation phases, while realtime animation means the animated objects can react to ingame action, there can be "damage models", not relevant for gameplay of course, but it can do things prerender can´t do.

There are a few issues I see with most shmups done in a 3d engine, like collision detection, texture quality, but those are not necessary faults, just empiric ones present in most games, yet they can be remedied.

[TGK]

Plus, if we all remember that as a senior software engineer at one of the big players you can easily make $100K a year. Those guy at TS didn't need to quit Konami. Or they could just find a job at Square, EA Japan, etc.

Anyone who says that "shooting love" is "just" a marketing ploy obviously didn't consider the issue for more than 2 seconds.

It does carry some marketing effect, I won't deny, but any company needs to make a profit. Profit does not necessarily nullify love, especially if the task was not at all easy.

[TGK]

Definitely, we won't agree on this one. I can't see the genre benefiting from any 3D effect, like the ones you mention. A "hybrid" with real time 3D models instead of sprites just can't be the same ...

But realtime animations allow much more detail and variation compared to prerender models.

...

Couldn't say it better myself. The expressive ability of realtime animation is endless. It opens new possibilities, yet it can revert back to the old-school feel when needed.

[sethsez]

What makes prerendered better than realtime 3d animation?

They're sprites.

That's it.

Recap is a veritable encyclopedia of random facts when it comes to obscure Japanese games and systems, but when it comes down to actually explaining why 2D is better than 3D (or why Japan's art is better than all others, or why one style of joystick is best, etc.), his points all inevitably come back to "it is because it is, it is because I prefer it, and I prefer it because I know more than you." He prefers sprites, thus they are objectively better. Clearly.

Maybe I'm not giving him enough credit, but after all the debates I've seen him in...

[Recap]

Ignoring portable games and compilations since that makes it too easy:

Alien Homonid
Cossacks 2
Supreme Ruler 2010
Hearts of Iron II
Blitzkrieg: Rolling Thunder
Port Royale 2
Chris Sawyer's Locomotion
Necromania
Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates (and the myriad of other puzzle games popularized by Popcap and co.)
Far too many Tycoon games to count

Mostly limited to a few genres, and it's less than it was in 2002-2003, but I already said as much. I'm also not counting games with sprite objects and polygonal backgrounds, nor am I counting the Myst style of adventure games which, while technically 2D, aren't what you had in mind. And these are taken entirely from memory and a quick search at Gamespot... I know there are ones I'm missing.

The 2D adventure/simulation games for the Japanese Windows alone surpasses that number. Add to it all the PS2 2D titles (adventure/simulation games, RPG's, puzzle, fighting, action games) and the few arcade games and you easily have a list 10 times bigger than that. I could list them, if you want. There's an important difference, anyways, I think - all the games you mention are somewhat "niche", much more than, say, Mushihime-sama.

So yeah, your assertion that the west dropped 2D as soon as 3D came along (which is what I was arguing, so I'm not sure why you brought up this year because that has no relevance, but whatever) isn't true.

I brought this year because it'd be easier to find, but you can take any period in the last decade, if you prefer. I also said there were exceptions, and, obviously, I was speaking in general terms. Anyways, the games you refer to belong to a pretty specific genre (the Western RPG for PC, that is). [And don't most of them use fully pre-rendered graphics?] Would have loved if you had mention a couple of games for consoles or the arcades, but hey.

To say otherwise is to ignore some of the biggest and most popular PC games and companies of the last decade.

Games and companies which did take the 3D route sooner or later, something you just can't say about ALL the Japanese developers (probably, you might say in very few years, but then also you can say it was "due to the globalization shit"). The point is that the common Japanese gamer did accept 2D where the Westerner didn't.

Publish a game by yourself is very tough. So I don't know how a small company like TS could do it.

Sega helped. The game had quite poor (if any) presence in Japanese stores, as far as I know.

at first I thought you had a point, but now I don´t get it anymore. What makes prerendered better than realtime 3d animation? 10 years ago you could have argued for hardware power in prerender models, but given the level of detail and size of models displayed in 2d games, especially shmups, current hardware has no problems animating these in realtime.

But realtime animations allow much more detail and variation compared to prerender models. Prerender inevitably means there´s a limited number of animation phases, while realtime animation means the animated objects can react to ingame action, there can be "damage models", not relevant for gameplay of course, but it can do things prerender can´t do.

Obviously, you didn't get the point. Pre-renders means there's limited animation (as limited as the number of frames one wants to put there there, anyways), but also means they're still (single) sprites. Real-time models imply a number of polygons which must go together and act as one only element, not to mention that its animation is conditioned by how the hardware handles it (which will imply the use of filters and its presentation in a "fake" resolution, different to the "design" one, to start with). As I said, it's a matter of "visual precision". Or "graphic honesty". Hard to explain even in my native language now I think about it.

Anyone who says that "shooting love" is "just" a marketing ploy obviously didn't consider the issue for more than 2 seconds.

It does carry some marketing effect, I won't deny, but any company needs to make a profit. Profit does not necessarily nullify love, especially if the task was not at all easy.

You obviously missed the "please, buy my game" announcement.

Couldn't say it better myself. The expressive ability of realtime animation is endless. It opens new possibilities, yet it can revert back to the old-school feel when needed.

Real time animation is a slave of the models themselves. As I said, that just can't happen with 2D animation. It's pretty easy to see.

Recap is a veritable encyclopedia of random facts when it comes to obscure Japanese games and systems, but when it comes down to actually explaining why 2D is better than 3D (or why Japan's art is better than all others, or why one style of joystick is best, etc.), his points all inevitably come back to "it is because it is, it is because I prefer it, and I prefer it because I know more than you." He prefers sprites, thus they are objectively better. Clearly.

Sorry, this is the lamest post in the thread (besides the ones from Ginger whatever, that is). When and where have I said that "sprites are _objectively_ better". I much prefer them and I much give MY OPINION. That's all. Sure; there's always a contemptuous tone when I speak about 3D graphics, but it's easy to see where it comes from: 2D IS DYING. Call it "militancy".

[TGK]

You obviously missed the "please, buy my game" announcement.
...

Well, I didn't miss it. That announcement is what made that page what the page creator intended it to be, a plea. He did not disguise it as anything else. The message was clear that he wants shmup fans to pre-order Trizeal.

As I said, any company needs to make a profit, love or not.

Just that, in those operations where a bit of love is involved, the game designer can take great effort to release a game in a genre that doesn't sell, knowing that he will make much less profit than simply working for a big company.

In fact, I doubt that anyone starting a company to make shmups can be sure that it will make any profit at all. But they do it. That is the love.[/quote]

[Cthulhu]

Publish a game by yourself is very tough. So I don't know how a small company like TS could do it.

Sega helped. The game had quite poor (if any) presence in Japanese stores, as far as I know.

I don't even want to try and wedge my way into the larger argument here, but I'll toss in a few side bits. Trizeal was released only to specialty stores, mostly in Akihabara, Den Den Town (Osaka's electronics area) and other places like that. It was not given full (or anything near full) distribution.

[Acid King]

Games and companies which did take the 3D route sooner or later, something you just can't say about ALL the Japanese developers (probably, you might say in very few years, but then also you can say it was "due to the globalization shit"). The point is that the common Japanese gamer did accept 2D where the Westerner didn't.

Though I said it before it bears repeating. You absolutely cannot blame the death of 2d on "globalization shit". It's a bullshit argument. 2d would have died regardless of the isolation of the market. The shift occurred with the advancement of technology. Anything else is the rose colored glasses speaking.

[raiden]

Obviously, you didn't get the point. Pre-renders means there's limited animation (as limited as the number of frames one wants to put there there, anyways), but also means they're still (single) sprites. Real-time models imply a number of polygons which must go together and act as one only element, not to mention that its animation is conditioned by how the hardware handles it (which will imply the use of filters and its presentation in a "fake" resolution, different to the "design" one, to start with). As I said, it's a matter of "visual precision". Or "graphic honesty". Hard to explain even in my native language now I think about it.

all of this is observation about what´s common with realtime models, but not a necessary conclusion that it has to be like that:
- sprite just refers to the way an object is stored. When you draw a 3d object on the screen, it becomes a "sprite", because it fills a certain amount of pixels with certain colors just like a sprite does. There CAN be a difference in the way designers can tweak prerendered sprites to emphasize certain details, but the same kind of care can be applied to realtime models as well.
- polygons don´t have to act as one only element in a realtime model, it´s completely feasible to combine sprite and 3d elements to form a larger model, where sprites are used for non-animated parts or animations that are easier done in 2d, and 3d parts are used for those parts that are easier done in 3d.
- it´s also not necessary to apply filters to a realtime 3d model, you can turn these things off. However, you can count that prerendered models usually get a lot more filters applied to them, because filtering costs hardware performance. Filtering can hide the fact a model consists of polygons at all.
- there is no "fake resolution" for a 3d model. A 3d model can be displayed in whatever resolution is needed. There can be optimum resolutions adjusted to the texture resolution.
- I´m really wondering what you mean by graphic honesty. Let me put it this way: with current hardware, a realtime model can be identical, on a pixel-by-pixel comparison level, to a prerendered model, but the realtime model will consume less memory (not relevant for game storage, but for current memory if you want to animate a screen-filling boss) and allow more animation phases than the prerendered object.

Real time animation is a slave of the models themselves. As I said, that just can't happen with 2D animation. It's pretty easy to see.

it can´t happen with handdrawn 2d animation, but it sure does with prerendered animation. But really, the problem of "being a slave of the models" really sounds like an issue of the past when the models were confined to a small number of polygons. Are you familiar with current quality standards in 3d animation? What was the last 3d game you played?

[neorichieb1971]

Edge is exactly that.

Ground breaking news in the videogame industry.


The fact that they even went to Japan to give these guys some publicity just shocks me. However, most Edge readers are older as the magazine is aimed at the politics and business of videogames. This would mean a certain percentage of gamers buying the magazine would be familiar with those companies. I thought it was a great read personally. The questions may not have been great but the answers went well in depth.

[icepick]

Aww, Recap. There there! In all sincerity, I feel for you. It doesn't necessarily help too much, but in situations like these, I like to think of the single best thing that I took away from the Matrix sequels: "Everything that has a beginning has an end." Things will never be the way that they were, and it makes me wonder about what will come about next to retire the 3D phase.

Are you, by chance, starting a 2D art-focused game development company? If anyone, it seems that you'd be the one for the job. (I hope that you are; We sure could use it.)

As an aside; I found the article an interesting read as well. It's sad to read about the declining state of arcades in Japan (not exactly news, but, still) but I appreciated their outlook on the next-gen systems and the new handhelds. It was also fun for me to read more about how they had started as new development firms, since I've been interested in them as of the past couple of years...

[neorichieb1971]

All that article says to me is that the arcade devcos are too big to be supported by the arcades. So they fragmented and set up there own little businesses. It seems that a 5-10 man operation can be supported by the arcade business but a 100-200 man operation cannot.

[Recap]

Publish a game by yourself is very tough. So I don't know how a small company like TS could do it.

Sega helped. The game had quite poor (if any) presence in Japanese stores, as far as I know.

I don't even want to try and wedge my way into the larger argument here, but I'll toss in a few side bits. Trizeal was released only to specialty stores, mostly in Akihabara, Den Den Town (Osaka's electronics area) and other places like that. It was not given full (or anything near full) distribution.

How that is different to what I was stating? Limited distribution = much lower costs for the company. They still asked 6,800 yen for it, thoe.

all of this is observation about what´s common with realtime models, but not a necessary conclusion that it has to be like that:
- sprite just refers to the way an object is stored. When you draw a 3d object on the screen, it becomes a "sprite", because it fills a certain amount of pixels with certain colors just like a sprite does.

Hmm. No. "Sprite" refers to the way an object is rendered by the hardware, handled by it and presented on screen. The result is clearly different.

- polygons don´t have to act as one only element in a realtime model, it´s completely feasible to combine sprite and 3d elements to form a larger model, where sprites are used for non-animated parts or animations that are easier done in 2d, and 3d parts are used for those parts that are easier done in 3d.

Combining "true sprites" (that is, non "plain textures") with polygons to form a model is of course possible but not really feasible since you have "plain textures". Fail to see the point.

- it´s also not necessary to apply filters to a realtime 3d model, you can turn these things off.

They never do these days, thoe. They have to hide their textures' low res.

However, you can count that prerendered models usually get a lot more filters applied to them,

Never. Pre-rendered models are sprites. Hardware filters aren't never applied to them unless they take the "fake low res" route, which is applied indistinctly to pre-renders and hand-drawn models.

Filtering can hide the fact a model consists of polygons at all.

Again, never. This statement shows you are not really accustomed to low-res, sprite-based games, so are not the best person to speak about differentiations, sorry.

- there is no "fake resolution" for a 3d model. A 3d model can be displayed in whatever resolution is needed. There can be optimum resolutions adjusted to the texture resolution.

That's what I meant with "design resolution" - the one of their textures, obviusly.

- I´m really wondering what you mean by graphic honesty. Let me put it this way: with current hardware, a realtime model can be identical, on a pixel-by-pixel comparison level, to a prerendered model,

What I mean is exactly what you can't see and leads you to think that a real-time model can be identical to a pre-rendered sprite. But I can't explain it better. As I said, it has to do with resolution, filters and how the hardware handles them.

[sethsez]

However, you can count that prerendered models usually get a lot more filters applied to them,

Never. Pre-rendered models are sprites. Hardware filters aren't never applied to them unless they take the "fake low res" route, which is applied indistinctly to pre-renders and hand-drawn models.

Either you're misunderstanding him or I am, but to me it looks like he's saying that a prerendered sprite is made from 3D models. These models then have filters applied to them before they're turned into standard 2D sprites. The filters aren't applied to the sprites themselves, but to the models that are used to make them. So it's weird to have a thing against filters being applied to 3D models, but being fine with prerendered sprites since they're also made with filtered 3D models.

[Recap]

Either you're misunderstanding him or I am, but to me it looks like he's saying that a prerendered sprite is made from 3D models. These models then have filters applied to them before they're turned into standard 2D sprites. The filters aren't applied to the sprites themselves, but to the models that are used to make them. So it's weird to have a thing against filters being applied to 3D models, but being fine with prerendered sprites since they're also made with filtered 3D models.

A pre-rendered model doesn't have to have been filtered (or even textured) before turning it into a sprite at all, but that's really unimportant when you indeed turn it into a sprite. That process (when properly done, that is) will alleviate (actually, "hide") any previous effect.

[brokendivide]

animation is conditioned by how the hardware handles it (which will imply the use of filters and its presentation in a "fake" resolution

Animation in 3d is a series of keyframes, with various movements described in mathematical curves, which are determined by the animator. If the condition of animation is sloppy it's their fault, not the hardwares. The hardware does what it's told.

[Recap]

animation is conditioned by how the hardware handles it (which will imply the use of filters and its presentation in a "fake" resolution

Animation in 3d is a series of keyframes, with various movements described in mathematical curves, which are determined by the animator. If the condition of animation is sloppy it's their fault, not the hardwares. The hardware does what it's told.

Don't know where that decontextualized line belongs to and I'm not going to search it, but anyways, have you heard about processing power and the polygons/frames per second thing?

[K-J N.]

The latest issue of the Swedish multiformat magazine Reset has a feature / interview with Treasure, G.Rev, MileStone and Triangle Service as well. Had a quick glance at it and I think it shares some of the info with the Edge article.

[Valgar]

I would like to see what Treasure has to say.

[louisg]

Hmm.. ok I have to ask about a few points here.. one is that the West converted to 3d instantly when 3d was available. Ok, well, if you throw in computer games, you will find a lot of (good) 2d artwork. Then there has been in the past a lot of very good European pixel artists which give Japanese artists a run for their money if not surpassing them in their use of color and shading. Also, not counting consoles, realtime 3d graphics used in various genres of games have been with us for decades.

Additionally, the use of the word filter comes up a lot. I'm not sure exactly what is meant by this, since there are a few different filters at work in graphics systems.

Louis

[quote="Recap"][quote="TGK"]

Most likely, it won't. Because of the filters and other 3D effects, you know.

[Recap]

Hmm.. ok I have to ask about a few points here.. one is that the West converted to 3d instantly when 3d was available. Ok, well, if you throw in computer games, you will find a lot of (good) 2d artwork.

That was a generalization speaking about mainstream games. 2D graphics were promptly reduced to a very specific genre for a very specific public and used mainly pre-rendered graphics. That just didn't happen in Japan 10 years ago. Read the full thread.

Then there has been in the past a lot of very good European pixel artists which give Japanese artists a run for their money if not surpassing them in their use of color and shading.

Please, names. More than two, if possible. "Color and shading" are not everything, anyways.

Also, not counting consoles, realtime 3d graphics used in various genres of games have been with us for decades.

Mostly, in Western iterations. So?

Additionally, the use of the word filter comes up a lot. I'm not sure exactly what is meant by this, since there are a few different filters at work in graphics systems.

Any which masks pixelation derived from scaling.

[louisg]

That was a generalization speaking about mainstream games. 2D graphics were promptly reduced to a very specific genre for a very specific public and used mainly pre-rendered graphics. That just didn't happen in Japan 10 years ago. Read the full thread.

In action game genres, there may be a case-- however most games released stateside for the PSX are actually Japanese in origin and many used 3d regardless of whether it would improve the gameplay or not. In the West, strategy games and RPGs have had 2d graphics until very recently. I also think that, like Western devs, you'll find that outside of a few genres, Japanese games largely went 3d when hardware based 3d became cheap.

Please, names. More than two, if possible. "Color and shading" are not everything, anyways.

If you would go through the library of games for computers popular in Europe such as the Amiga, you will find countless numbers of 2d games with beautiful hand drawn graphics such as Shadow of the Beast, which mainly existed to show pixel art. In fact, keep in mind these games use 32 colors-- impressive, indeed. Other candidates might include the entire Bitmap Bros library or Cinemaware games. Some PC games included great art such as the 2d watercolor artwork in Darklands or the hand drawn artwork in games like Willy Beamish.

Mostly, in Western iterations. So?

If you'd go through the library of Japanese computers which are powerful enough to show 3d (unlike consoles at the time), I am sure you will find many 3d games such as Silpheed (an early example of a 3d game in a genre most often left to 2d in fact!).

Any which masks pixelation derived from scaling.

Yes, I agree pixelation is desirable in most cases with 2d game ports. However, if the screen is stretched, pixelation will actually look worse than if the image were interpolated.

[Recap]

In action game genres, there may be a case-- however most games released stateside for the PSX are actually Japanese in origin and many used 3d regardless of whether it would improve the gameplay or not.

"Stateside" releases of Japanese games are never representative of that country's true legacy. I've already explained that some Japanese companies were really worried about satisfying Western communities fro the very beginning. Again, read the whole thread, please.

In the West, strategy games and RPGs have had 2d graphics until very recently.

Very specific games for a very specific public. An exception. Already explained.

I also think that, like Western devs, you'll find that outside of a few genres, Japanese games largely went 3d when hardware based 3d became cheap.

Seems you ignore the true Japanese gaming legacy of the last decade. Japanese games largely went 3D when they needed to be sold in Western countries. The globalization shit. Please, don't make me repeat myself anymore. We have a prominent overprotective moderator here who doesn't like it. Read the thread.

If you would go through the library of games for computers popular in Europe such as the Amiga, you will find countless numbers of 2d games with beautiful hand drawn graphics such as Shadow of the Beast, which mainly existed to show pixel art. In fact, keep in mind these games use 32 colors-- impressive, indeed. Other candidates might include the entire Bitmap Bros library or Cinemaware games. Some PC games included great art such as the 2d watercolor artwork in Darklands or the hand drawn artwork in games like Willy Beamish.

You're speaking about an era previous to the one I'm refering. Some Amiga games are visually fabulous (gameplay-wise pretty poor, on the other hand), but they are very few - Shadow of the Beast, Wrath of the Demon, Ivanhoe... The art soon disappeared when the consoles came to Europe.

Mostly, in Western iterations. So?

If you'd go through the library of Japanese computers which are powerful enough to show 3d (unlike consoles at the time), I am sure you will find many 3d games such as Silpheed (an early example of a 3d game in a genre most often left to 2d in fact!).

Sure, the PC-98 and the X 68000 had some 3D games. Then again, very very few for being representative. Japanese public clearly said "no, thanks" to them.

Yes, I agree pixelation is desirable in most cases with 2d game ports. However, if the screen is stretched, pixelation will actually look worse than if the image were interpolated.

This brings back once again the true low res debate (15 kHz non-interlaced display). Ask about it to a guy called "Dylan1CC" and he'll explain it with pleasure. He's pretty knowledgeable and also he is "a person who plays Progear on a JAMMA rig and RGB monitor and knows the importance and beauty of true arcade resolution". So he'll for sure let you know the technicalities involved there.

[TGK]

Hmm.. ok I have to ask about a few points here.. one is that the West converted to 3d instantly when 3d was available. Ok, well, if you throw in computer games, you will find a lot of (good) 2d artwork. Then there has been in the past a lot of very good European pixel artists which give Japanese artists a run for their money if not surpassing them in their use of color and shading. Also, not counting consoles, realtime 3d graphics used in various genres of games have been with us for decades.

Additionally, the use of the word filter comes up a lot. I'm not sure exactly what is meant by this, since there are a few different filters at work in graphics systems.

Louis

Most likely, it won't. Because of the filters and other 3D effects, you know.

Sorry I'm too busy today so I didn't read everything said above. Recap probably answered your question, but I'll just do it again.

There's a lot of gfx filters, but the debate here (with Recap) is mostly about those that are used to change resolution of a game. Interpolation, 2xsai, HQ3x .etc. fall on this category.

"Fake low res", if I understand Recap correctly, refers to trying to display arcade resolution (320x240 normally) on a TV or computer monitor with much higher resolution, and use one or more of the filters above to hide defects. This look attrociously bad, I agree.

But there was a point I raised at some point, is that with 3D realtime you can afford to have multiple resolutions of your textures (mipmap) stored in memory, and display them selectively based on distance. If you aim right at the start to develop for a higher resolution, then when you actually shrink it down to "player resolution" you won't need any sort of filters (if you ever shrink images down in Photoshop, you will notice that it never become blurry or grainy, but it does when you scale it up).

That is the true strength of realtime 3D.

[louisg]

"Stateside" releases of Japanese games are never representative of that country's true legacy. I've already explained that some Japanese companies were really worried about satisfying Western communities fro the very beginning. Again, read the whole thread, please.

Are you speaking of the thousands of Mahjong games which companies were unable to make catch on with the west? I look through all sorts of import catalogs to find games I want to play, and to be honest, it's 95% 3d out there-- even in games which have such a Japanese flavor that I was surprised they had a US release and games which had no western release at all. I don't think the Japanese public is saying no thanks to 3d!

Very specific games for a very specific public. An exception. Already explained.

Actually, RTS games sell a lot of copies over here, even to people who don't consider themselves regular gamers. I don't think it's any more niche than modern 2d shooters for example (whose companies are routinely going out of business, unlike, say, Blizzard).

Seems you ignore the true Japanese gaming legacy of the last decade. Japanese games largely went 3D when they needed to be sold in Western countries. The globalization shit. Please, don't make me repeat myself anymore. We have a prominent overprotective moderator here who doesn't like it. Read the thread.

Japanese games needed to be sold in Western companies ever since Space Invaders was a huge runaway success. Most people I know grew up with the NES, and the games they played were almost all Japanese. The thing that really has changed is that the origin of these games isn't as hidden as it was before (for instance you likely wouldn't see something like Katamari in the US in 1988). It seems that when a Japanese company wants to make a title with a lot of West-appeal, they hire a Western company anyway (Metroid Prime, Dead to Rights, etc).

The real correlation between Japanese games going 3d is the same as with anything else: 3d was finally cheap and more sophisticated.

I have spoken with the moderator and he told me he is ok with this thread for now.

You're speaking about an era previous to the one I'm refering. Some Amiga games are visually fabulous (gameplay-wise pretty poor, on the other hand), but they are very few - Shadow of the Beast, Wrath of the Demon, Ivanhoe... The art soon disappeared when the consoles came to Europe.

It took a few years, and then moved into those other genres I have mentioned. Likewise, you will mostly find 2d art in Japanese games which are shooters and fighting games.

[TGK]

though I think Recap and I were talking on two totally different tangents. I was trying to envision a future of shmup, where 3D realtime is the heart of the development methodology, while Recap is thinking about porting current (and past) arcade games, where the filter issue becomes important.