Ibara impressions (yay, it's finally out!)

[Dewclaw]

Thanks for the explanation guys. I wouldn't say it's really a bad thing as long as it isn't too brutal(like it sounds like it is in Ibara). I think a good rank system would make the game more challenging for good players but average players couldn't just accidentally ramp up the difficulty by doing somethin like leaning on the shot button all the time(which I'm guilty of)

[Cthulhu]

Thanks for the explanation guys. I wouldn't say it's really a bad thing as long as it isn't too brutal(like it sounds like it is in Ibara). I think a good rank system would make the game more challenging for good players but average players couldn't just accidentally ramp up the difficulty by doing somethin like leaning on the shot button all the time(which I'm guilty of)

Rank is a pretty heavily debated topic here - but I'd like to keep this thread primarily about Ibara. If you want to start up a new thread about rank though, feel free to.

[MadSteelDarkness]

Many thanks for the info, Cthulhu. I do believe I will love this to pieces.

C'mooooooonnnn, home port!

[CMoon]

This is really fantastic. I really think this is Cave sponsoring Garegga 3, not a true Cave game, and I think it is awesome they can use their success to support a homage like this. I understand the folks who don't like Garegga who want a new Cave game instead, but that probably isn't even a real option. I wonder if Cave will do homage games to other companies?

C'mooooooonnnn

What!!??

[MadSteelDarkness]

^ I was trying to say "come onnnnn" in abreviated form...

[Cthulhu]

This is really fantastic. I really think this is Cave sponsoring Garegga 3, not a true Cave game, and I think it is awesome they can use their success to support a homage like this. I understand the folks who don't like Garegga who want a new Cave game instead, but that probably isn't even a real option. I wonder if Cave will do homage games to other companies?

Eh? Not a real option? Mushihime-sama was the most successful arcade shooter in years (read: it actually placed decently on the charts, but not as high as the fighting games)! I have no doubt that we'll see another traditional Cave-style game within another 9 months or so.

[WarpZone]

It's baffling and disappointing to hear that there are visual problems with the bullets and shrapnel. A clean, functional presentation is the one thing I thought I could expect from Cave, and probably the one improvement most people would agree Garegga needed. You'd think they could highlight the strongest aspects of Garegga in their spiritual successor while dumping the worst, but it appears they're trying to emulate it in a more literal sense.

I don't want to write off the game, though this is disappointing. I guess I'd just really like to see a video right now...

[black mariah]

You'd think they could highlight the strongest aspects of Garegga in their spiritual successor while dumping the worst, but it appears they're trying to emulate it in a more literal sense.

That's what I was hoping for. A synthesis of Cave and Raizing play styles. I don't mind rank so much, as long as I don't have to think about it (I suck, so I don't). I'm still really looking forward to it, even if I'll probably not play it until it hits MAME.

[raiden]

This could very well be the first disappointing Cave title for me
Garegga? I friggin' HATE Garegga!
AAAARRGGHH!!
B-

did you read the DDP interview Gaijinpunch translated recently? Because it states explicitly that there wouldn´t have been a DDP like it turned out without the influence of Battle Garegga. At the time, Cave developers were rather interested in weapon system variety than danmaku. Dodonpachi would have been something like Radiant Silvergun, and almost none of what we associate nowadays with Cave games would have ever existed.
Seen in that light, it´s not too surprising they are paying the game so much respect now.

[black mariah]

The influence that Garegga had on DDP doesn't change Garegga's not being all that great.

[it290]

Just to confirm on the difficulty thing, are you sure the machine was set on defaults?

[Cthulhu]

Just to confirm on the difficulty thing, are you sure the machine was set on defaults?

No, but I'll try to check next time I'm there. The arcade it was at has set several games to easy before, but I've never seen them set anything to hard. I doubt they'd start now. At this arcade, they have Ibara set to give you three lives at the beginning in reserve (instead of two, which I'm pretty sure is the standard even here), which means that it might actually be set to be -easier- than it should be.

[Icarus]

Thanks for the comments on Ibara. I had an idea of how it would play a long time before it hit the arcades, and from your comments here, I guess I can rest easy. It sounds the business, and more Raizing-like punishment than swarms of pink death...

Mmmm... Garegga 2...

Lucky you, getting to play it already.

[GaijinPunch]

Lucky you, getting to play it already.

Kinda makes me wish my job sucked.

[velocity7]

Now can we see some credits? Like who the music composer is? Any Raizing staff on the team? Etc.?

[Valgar]

Damn dude, we have known for awhile that there was Raizing staff on this project.

[CMoon]

Eh? Not a real option? Mushihime-sama was the most successful arcade shooter in years (read: it actually placed decently on the charts, but not as high as the fighting games)! I have no doubt that we'll see another traditional Cave-style game within another 9 months or so.

What I'm saying is that it sounds like this essentially is a Raizing game by the Raizing dude with support from the Cave people. Sure, it is POSSIBLE that they could have all committed themselves to another game and had it out by now, but if you look at the timing it would seem like Ibara was probably conceived during production of Mushihime and cave committed some of its developers to it.

[Randorama]

What I'm saying is that it sounds like this essentially is a Raizing game by the Raizing dude with support from the Cave people. Sure, it is POSSIBLE that they could have all committed themselves to another game and had it out by now, but if you look at the timing it would seem like Ibara was probably conceived during production of Mushihime and cave committed some of its developers to it.

Sorry but let me reiterate: Shinobu Yagawa ( the guy behind Battle Garegga) is the main programmer/producer, and Akira Wakabayashi (Cave designer) is in charge/editor of the design. Note: both, to my knowledge have WORKED AT TOAPLAN. Also, Tsuneki Ikeda and the other game (what's the name...?) in the interview said that they were inspired by Battle Garegga, A GAME PRODUCED BY THEIR EX-COLLEAGUE AT TOAPLAN. See a pattern forming here?

don't think so. The game's "rules" can't involve doing things which go against your score, such as avoiding items or using bombs. It actually is a "punish for your skill", probably invented by Konami in the old years to get more of your money and adopted by too many developers, as Psikyo. It ruins the concept and I thought that we wouldn't see it again these days, to be honest.

Rank is present in most of shmups, including Cave ones. This specific rank system seems to work exactly like Garegga (i.e. every single action increases the rank total) and, considering that the Shinobu Yagawa is behind it, i can say that "the wolf loses the skin but not the bad habits" ( or whatever the english equivalent is). I think Zaphod said that Compile started to use rank-like systems in their early games, but maybe Gradius (...or Salamander? Can't check now) was the first arcade one.

[TGK]

Mmmm... Garegga 2...

My thought exactly. I enjoyed Raizing's stuff more than Cave's too, since whenever I die in a Raizing game, I know that it is most likely my fault.

Cthulhu, is the bomb in Ibara behaves like in Garrega (nullifies bullet, doesn't make you invincible) or Batrider (does make you invincible)?

As fine as Garrega is in my opinion, I think the way the bomb was executed was horrid. There is a split second lag before the bomb is fired, and it doesn't keep you invincible either.

[Recap]

Rank is present in most of shmups, including Cave ones.

Just to clarify, by "rank" you mean ANY type of self-adjustable difficulty pattern?

[BulletMagnet]

My thought exactly. I enjoyed Raizing's stuff more than Cave's too, since whenever I die in a Raizing game, I know that it is most likely my fault.

Don't know about anyone else, but I've never had "fairness" problems in Cave games in general, especially considering that bullets are easier to see and hitboxes are usually smaller than in many Raizing games, not to mention that bombs are instantaneous and grant invincibility.

[freddiebamboo]

Rank is present in most of shmups, including Cave ones.

To my knowledge there is no rank in DDP. Also, the rank in galuda doesn't seem to affect difficulty, but generates different boss patterns to keep you on your toes. Esprade's rank is noticable, but is more a scoring mechanism/reward as more bullets can be converted for more points/multiplier time. Unsure about dangun etc...

Certainly nothing close to bakraid or garegga IMO

[Randorama]

Rank is present in most of shmups, including Cave ones.

Just to clarify, by "rank" you mean ANY type of self-adjustable difficulty pattern?

Rank is usually intended as the game keeping in check of your perfomance and becoming more difficult because of your skill (or, viceversa, becoming easier because of your lack of skill). Garegga's rank is the most convoluted system ever, but in general rank is along the lines of "survive longer and the game will become more difficult". The difference is that in early examples like Gradius games, you would still need to completely power-up, because the full power configuration would outweight the enhanced difficulty.

On this regard, i don't remember if in earlier Gradii there was the possibility to keep the rank low by skipping some power-ups (like in Gradius V: i've seen a replay where the player takes the bombs only by stage 6): it also seems that option-eaters were thought as a sort of rank-managers, at the beginning.

In this regard, all forms of rank are adjustable by the player, albeit some are absolutely unconvenient (suiciding in a Gradius is pointless): also, there's no real standard (like, say, an ISO one) for rank, as i've seen more or less any possibility to be exploited (i.e. any possible element to affect rank). Also, most rank systems actually work in both ways: you can keep it low to have an easy time, but also raise it at will to score more. This is typical of games from RaidenDX/DonPachi on, i think, as a "full display" of skill will grant you bigger scores ( In Raiden DX, you need to be fully powered-up to score properly: in DP, you will get consistent bomb bonuses if you never die and bomb and thus trigger a high rank level).

Last but not least, DDP has a spurious rank, in the sense that it gets a bit easier once you die, but that's all (i.e. it helps you if you suck, but doesn't challenge you if you're good).

[Icarus]

To my knowledge there is no rank in DDP. Also, the rank in galuda doesn't seem to affect difficulty, but generates different boss patterns to keep you on your toes. Esprade's rank is noticable, but is more a scoring mechanism/reward as more bullets can be converted for more points/multiplier time. Unsure about dangun etc...

Certainly nothing close to bakraid or garegga IMO

Rank when discussed in the Raizing context refers to a vicious self-adjusting difficuty system that requires non-standard playing methods in order to control. Rank when discussed in the "other companies" context refers to a more simple difficulty-adjusting system that usually increases dependent on survival time, among other factors.

Rank is present in ALL Cave games, even as far back as Donpachi, but again, the systems themselves are a lot more simple and function dependent on your survival time. Play up to stage 5 of DDP on your first life for example, and watch the patterns of pink become screen-filling clouds of death. In Espgaluda rank is based on both your survival time, and the Overmode Meter Level you're at (the three rings that appear and start to fill when you have no Kakusei Gems), and affects bullet speed, bullet amount and pattern selection. Other Cave games function in the same manner, with their own game-specific tweaks.

Like Rando said, Rank has been (and is still is) present in virtually every arcade and console shmup in some form or other. It's only lately have we seen shmup devcos taking this simple little gameplay system and tweak it/turn it upside down.

...i can say that "the wolf loses the skin but not the bad habits" ( or whatever the english equivalent is)...

I think you meant "old habits die hard", and I would be inclined to agree with you in this case. Even though it seems that Shinobu Yagawa has been MIA for a while, it appears he hasn't lost the ability to create player-killing rank systems

I have this weird feeling that Ibara will become the new Garegga. Much loved by some, much hated by others, for all the same reasons that follows every Garegga discussion/debate.

On this regard, i don't remember if in earlier Gradii there was the possibility to keep the rank low by skipping some power-ups (like in Gradius V: i've seen a replay where the player takes the bombs only by stage 6): it also seems that option-eaters were thought as a sort of rank-managers, at the beginning.

I'm not sure if you can call it "rank control" but you can definitely stop the Option Thief from appearing by limiting your collected Options to 3 or less. If you collect the maximum of 4, then the Thief appears.

To some, the OpThief is more dangerous than most enemies since it can appear at inopportune moments, disrupt your stage route, and often steal all your Options during tough sections. Limiting your Options (and in Parodii, the Grade Ups) works to this effect.

[BulletMagnet]

Last but not least, DDP has a spurious rank, in the sense that it gets a bit easier once you die, but that's all.

Are you talking about the fact that enemies stop firing at you for a few moments after you die? It'd be a real stretch to call that "rank"...does the "overall" game get any easier when you die? If it does, I never noticed it...

[CMoon]

Sorry but let me reiterate: Shinobu Yagawa ( the guy behind Battle Garegga) is the main programmer/producer, and Akira Wakabayashi (Cave designer) is in charge/editor of the design. Note: both, to my knowledge have WORKED AT TOAPLAN. Also, Tsuneki Ikeda and the other game (what's the name...?) in the interview said that they were inspired by Battle Garegga, A GAME PRODUCED BY THEIR EX-COLLEAGUE AT TOAPLAN. See a pattern forming here?

ROCK ON! Toaplan LIVES!

[Randorama]

Rank is present in ALL Cave games, even as far back as Donpachi, but again, the systems themselves are a lot more simple and function dependent on your survival time.

Dangun Feveron has actually extra waves of enemies, a sort of "internal rank" (i.e good perfomances trigger extra sections, so to speak), it shares this innovation with Raycrisis, albeit i'm not sure about the exact day of publication of both

I have this weird feeling that Ibara will become the new Garegga. Much loved by some, much hated by others, for all the same reasons that follows every Garegga discussion/debate.

Oh no! hate against a Cave game

I'm not sure if you can call it "rank control" but you can definitely stop the Option Thief from appearing by limiting your collected Options to 3 or less. If you collect the maximum of 4, then the Thief appears.

To some, the OpThief is more dangerous than most enemies since it can appear at inopportune moments, disrupt your stage route, and often steal all your Options during tough sections. Limiting your Options (and in Parodii, the Grade Ups) works to this effect.

No, i thought that it could be used to lower your rank by eating options, but i forgot it never appears in "good" moments.

[CMoon]

Woohoo! Double Post (is that a chain?)

Actually I think there is both very evident rank in ESPgaluda and DOJ. DOJ is really obvious (maybe so obvious people are not thinking of it). In DOJ most of this only seems to occur during bosses though. Using the Hyper (which you HAVE to use in place of a bomb--or just don't bomb or don't chain) makes the boss attack faster and more visciously. Also, the first boss for instance will attack more visciously if you blow off the side pods. This isn't just a different pattern--the boss suddenly becomes a LOT harder.

In Galuda I note it around the second mid-boss who whips out a slightly harder (yeah, slightly harder than EASY) pattern if you have collected more gold points.

These are really clear examples of rank but I think nobody mentions them because they are neither convoluted nor do always make the game SIGNIFICANTLY harder.

What has not been mentioned here is that it is in part because of Garegga's convoluted scoring system that it became a hit in Japan with massive score competition which was well above what most players could accomplish. People's pride is too big--most here probably could 1cc garegga if they made heavy use of rank management and did not use power-ups or pick up metals. The difficulty isn't just survivin Garegga but doing REALLY well at it, and that added dimension is what has made Garegga a legend (whether you like it or not). While DDP has a deep and fun scoring system, Garegga seems to assume active competition but also adjusts to a wide level of skill, making it (at least IMO) deeper than DDP.

What I am driving at isn't that any of this makes Garegga a great game (though it is one of my favorite), but rather, because of this much maligned rank, Ibara will probably be a hit in Japan (ha! or I could be eating crow in a couple months!)

Oh, and lastly, why do people keep calling this Garegga 2? Isn't that what Bakraid is?

[CMoon]

Dangun Feveron has actually extra waves of enemies, a sort of "internal rank" (i.e good perfomances trigger extra sections, so to speak), it shares this innovation with Raycrisis, albeit i'm not sure about the exact day of publication of both

I think it does this in Mars Matrix as well.

[GaijinPunch]

I just think it'll be strange to see a Super Replay of a Cave game with a death in it. O_o