DDP DOJ is the "poor mans" Ketsui - GO!

[TonK]

Lets talk about this. I'm no shmup expert - but the pricing difference of these games makes me wonder why people go nuts for Ketsui over DDP DOJ.

Sure, its a great game - but so is DDP DOJ.

Can anyone tell me what the main hype behind Ketsui is?

As far as I see it - both are very similar in style, not gameplay.

Here is what I came up with.

Whats similar?

- Bullet Patterns
- Music
- Ships
- Stages
- Bombs
- Shot Types
- Hibachi (Revised in Ketsui)
- 2 Loops

Whats different?

- Scoring

Discuss.

Please keep it civil - this isn't meant to start any argument.

This is how people like myself gain experience.

[emphatic]

As the scoring mechanics change the gameplay fundamentally, it's quite a big deal. Once you know how to score in Ketsui, you can do it on all stages (in theory) immediately. In DOJ, not so much.

[Kenchan]

Well for me, I ran into Ketsui before I knew anything about shmups. My arcade in Japan had it, and I thought it was the new DDP game. I know better now, and personally I adore Ketsui a lot more. I think it's just funner to play, don't know if it's related to just the scoring system or something else, but that's what does it for me.

[chempop]

I've never played either so I'm probably not considered an expert.... but isn't Ketsui all about some kinda Lock-on shot? Also, from the videos I've seen the patterns in Ketsui are truly unlike anything else out there. Been meaning to grab a DOJ port but I figure I should tackle some of Cave's easier games first.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Consider the fact that Cave released Ketsui right after releasing DDP-DOJ, they both still retain that military theme along with the famous Cave styled danmaku flavor that they're both known for.

There was a time when you could buy a barebones Ketsui PCB for a mere $350.00 USD back in late 2005...of course, this was before the PCB shot up in monetary price.

All four IGS produced PCBs of DDP-DOJ, DDP-DOJ Black Label variant, Ketsui & ESPgaluda are all based on the PGM-based motherboard setup.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Udderdude]

Ketsui's scoring is also a lot more forgiving than DOJ, where one slip-up means your score for the entire stage is pretty much screwed.

DOJ also starts out balls hard from level 1, while Ketsui gives you 1 (arguably 2) warm-up levels.

[apple arcade]

Lets talk about this. I'm no shmup expert - but the pricing difference of these games makes me wonder why people go nuts for Ketsui over DDP DOJ.

Sure, its a great game - but so is DDP DOJ.

Can anyone tell me what the main hype behind Ketsui is?

As far as I see it - both are very similar.

Here is what I came up with.

Whats similar?

- Bullet Patterns
- Music
- Ships
- Stages
- Bombs
- Shot Types
- Hibachi (Revised in Ketsui)
- 2 Loops

Whats different?

- Scoring

Discuss.

Please keep it civil - this isn't meant to start any argument.

This is how people like myself gain experience.

ketsui has bullets that slow down and speed up or more commonly kind look like they dance on the screen.

[t0yrobo]

I dunno, I've played both (although briefly) and I didn't think they felt that similar at all. They do appear similar though.

[Chi_Ryu]

I've owned both, and played them extensively (but disclaimer that I'm shit at Shmups and can't 1CC either of them). I currently own DOJ and not Ketsui. To be honest, threads like this aren't really how people like you (the OP) get experience, playing the games *yourself* is how you gain experience.

For instance: Despite your claim, I don't think the bullet patterns have that much in common, to be honest - and I much prefer the patterns in Ketsui. Same with the stages - stages 3-5 in Ketsui are particularly delightful (especially the back-tracking).

They might look superficially slightly similar (and I don't even think they look that similar, aside from having bullets all over the shop), but they play very differently. I much prefer Ketsui, to the point that I'm considering re-buying it despite the crazy price.

DOJ also has detestable chaining (hate it), bees, and hypers (which admittedly I quite like), as well as the effect of choosing different dolls (mostly when you die, but also the amount of bombs you get). Ketsui has lock-on and DOOM <3

[Taylor]

DOJ values meticulous chaining and careful movements whereas Ketsui is highly fast-paced and utterly relentless. I don’t think the two share that much in common outside of the aesthetics. Pricing differences come down to Ketsui being PCB-only, Ketsui having fewer prints (I assume, DOJ had two editions), Ketsui being the better game, and Ketsui being ridiculously hyped.

[kengou]

disclaimer, I've only played Ketsui Death Label, not the full game

I'd say there are much bigger differences between DOJ and Ketsui than you're letting on. Scoring mechanics are totally different (looks more fun in Ketsui; chaining in DOJ SUCKS) and the bullet and enemy patterns are different. The main draw of Ketsui, to me (since Death Label doesn't have the full game's scoring system), is the insane bullet patterns that really are the best-designed in all of Cave's library, imo. DOJ is my current favorite game, but if I were to get a hold of Ketsui I'd expect it to become my new favorite. They're both fast games with great patterns, but Ketsui's patterns are just an entirely different dimension of insanity. They come from different angles, stop and change directions, and do all sorts of nutty things that make them really fun to dodge. I don't think any other Cave game has patterns quite like Ketsui's.

[ncp]

Ketsui and DOJ bullet patterns could hardly be more different. Amongst Cave games, they are virtually polar opposites.

[TonK]

This is all a good read - keep 'em coming.

For the record - I'm not dissing Ketsui or anything.

I'm actually looking to purchase a board.

I mean, apart from the obvious - these games are alike in many ways.

Some disagree that the bullet patterns are similar - which may be one of the lesser similarities.

I mean, its not ESPGaluda / ESPGaluda 2 similar, or even Mushi / Mushi Futari similar...

[Rob]

Ketsui's patterns are just an entirely different dimension of insanity. They come from different angles, stop and change directions, and do all sorts of nutty things that make them really fun to dodge. I don't think any other Cave game has patterns quite like Ketsui's.

Progear

[Skykid]

Totally different games, in as much as you can call Cave shooters 'different.' Ketsui is non-stop balls-to-the-wall relentless, unstoppable carnage of the best kind, but allows you to wade in and just go with it. I'd even say that it's slightly more forgiving that DOJ, which requires a fair amount of memorisation to ensure survival and particularly scoring.

Both are beautiful works. DOJ is the mother of all danmaku shmups and Ketsui is like some hidden prototype military weapon: very different to anything else, and managing to aquire one puts you in the equivalent of an exclusive shooting game Gentlemen's club.

[dmauro]

As the scoring mechanics change the gameplay fundamentally, it's quite a big deal.

This.

Ketsui is more like ESP Ra.De. than DOJ. And since most people don't get too excited about chain scoring, Ketsui gets a lot of love.

[TonK]

Totally different games, in as much as you can call Cave shooters 'different.' Ketsui is non-stop balls-to-the-wall relentless, unstoppable carnage of the best kind, but allows you to wade in and just go with it. I'd even say that it's slightly more forgiving that DOJ, which requires a fair amount of memorisation to ensure survival and particularly scoring.

Both are beautiful works. DOJ is the mother of all danmaku shmups and Ketsui is like some hidden prototype military weapon: very different to anything else, and managing to aquire one puts you in the equivalent of an exclusive shooting game Gentlemen's club.

Great post.

This is the type of response that makes me glad to be a member of this hobby.

[TonK]

I edited my OP to show what I mean when I said "similar".

Also, why the hype?

Is it the end-all of shooters?

A few people I've discussed this with have stated that ESPGaluda 2, Mushi Futari, and a few others are their favorite shooters over Ketsui, which came in at 3rd or 2nd on their list.

So was the print run that small on this game?

Can anyone describe the magic this game has over anything else?

Is it your favorite shooter?

Why wouldn't someone like it?

[Plasmo]

Whats similar?

- Bullet Patterns NO!
- Music no
- Ships no? maybe a bit
- Stages no
- Bombs what does that even mean? I just go for another no
- Shot Types yes (nearly all cave games have the same shiptypes btw
- Hibachi (Revised in Ketsui) DOOM is nothing like Hibachi
- 2 Loops yes

I don't see how they're simliar...
Ketsui is an okish game, but nowhere near CAVEs best ones. Everyone who played Pink Sweets probably has to agree with me. See Quote.

[TonK]

Whats similar?

- Bullet Patterns NO!
- Music no
- Ships no? maybe a bit
- Stages no
- Bombs what does that even mean? I just go for another no
- Shot Types yes (nearly all cave games have the same shiptypes btw
- Hibachi (Revised in Ketsui) DOOM is nothing like Hibachi
- 2 Loops yes

I don't see how they're simliar...
Ketsui is an okish game, but nowhere near CAVEs best ones. Everyone who played Pink Sweets probably has to agree with me. See Quote.

Care to elaborate on anything you just stated?

I'll give you "bullet patterns".

But the rest is, at the very least, debatable.

Just saying flat out "no" without any rebuttal towards my claims means nothing.

[Alec]

This thread kinda reminds me of the time I bought Metal Slug Anthology at Gamestop. The guy at the counter said,

"I love Metal Slug! It's the poor man's Contra."

Good times.

[dmauro]

The music is definitely very similar. It's probably more similar to DOJ than the visual theme even.

[Skykid]

Can anyone describe the magic this game has over anything else?

I can't imagine what it would have been like if it had been an explosive success rather than a stunning re-discovery.

Back in early 2003 when I first visited Japan I stumbled on Ketsui at an arcade near the Asakusa ryokan we were staying at.
When I played it the first time, I too thought it was some kind of DOJ spin off - in fact, I was confused, thinking it might be the Black Label variant I'd heard of. It didn't help that I couldn't read the title screen either, so I was just playing it utterly clueless as to what it was.
However, I remember it grabbing me instantly - it was the most full-on shmup experience I'd ever had. The non-stop violence of it, even more than DOJ, was really arresting. I loved the announcer as I lead into the first boss fight, the way the beat starts thumping before she's finished saying "approach your target and attack, your mission starts now - are you ready?", and then a huge helicopter starts laying into you with all its got. And man, the first time that chopper went down - that screen filling explosion was so impressive I wasn't sure if I'd just blown the forest up in the background.

Indeed, I spent the whole next day travelling to Kyoto itching to play it again, and even though I could barely make stage two, it was a very memorable experience.

In the very, very rare occasions I got to play it again in the years since, it always impressed me that it was just as good and just as unique as I remembered it. And that's got nothing to do with nostalgia.

Truly, it's not overrated at all.

[TonK]

Can anyone describe the magic this game has over anything else?

I can't imagine what it would have been like if it had been an explosive success rather than a stunning re-discovery.

Back in early 2003 when I first visited Japan I stumbled on Ketsui at an arcade near the Asakusa ryokan we were staying at.
When I played it the first time, I too thought it was some kind of DOJ spin off - in fact, I was confused, thinking it might be the Black Label variant I'd heard of. It didn't help that I couldn't read the title screen either, so I was just playing it utterly clueless as to what it was.
However, I remember it grabbing me instantly - it was the most full-on shmup experience I'd ever had. The non-stop violence of it, even more than DOJ, was really arresting. I loved the announcer as I lead into the first boss fight, the way the beat starts thumping before she's finished saying "approach your target and attack, your mission starts now - are you ready?", and then a huge helicopter starts laying into you with all its got. And man, the first time that chopper went down - that screen filling explosion was so impressive I wasn't sure if I'd just blown the forest up in the background.

Indeed, I spent the whole next day travelling to Kyoto itching to play it again, and even though I could barely make stage two, it was a very memorable experience.

In the very, very rare occasions I got to play it again in the years since, it always impressed me that it was just as good and just as unique as I remembered it. And that's got nothing to do with nostalgia.

Truly, it's not overrated at all.

This just further enhances my desire to get this board.

Thank you again for a brilliant response.

[brentsg]

This just further enhances my desire to get this board.

Thank you again for a brilliant response.

This thread is just foreplay isn't it?

[TonK]

This just further enhances my desire to get this board.

Thank you again for a brilliant response.

This thread is just foreplay isn't it?

Waiting on you to make the move - send it now!

[Ed Oscuro]

This thread kinda reminds me of the time I bought Metal Slug Anthology at Gamestop. The guy at the counter said,

"I love Metal Slug! It's the poor man's Contra."

Good times.

That dude knows his shit.

[Skykid]

This thread kinda reminds me of the time I bought Metal Slug Anthology at Gamestop. The guy at the counter said,

"I love Metal Slug! It's the poor man's Contra."

Good times.

Obviously knows what he's talking about.

The music is definitely very similar. It's probably more similar to DOJ than the visual theme even.

Very true point, I'd say dmauro has it spot on - the music is most obvious similarity in the game. Both the mid-level music and stage 2 themes are very similar to DOJ - in fact I got confused by some of the tunes when I got Death Label as I thought I'd heard them in DOJ before (shows how much 'on' time I'd actually had with Ketsui... not enough.)

This just further enhances my desire to get this board.

Thank you again for a brilliant response.

No problem bud, nice to share experiences of such a special game. It must be said that the mystique of Ketsui: it's relative commercial failure, it's ton of bugs and glitches, it's scarcity and of course it's astronomical price, do add to the charm of the experience. It just helps that it's actually great too.

[Chi_Ryu]

Very true point, I'd say dmauro has it spot on - the music is most obvious similarity in the game

Agreed; but not surprising seeing as both were composed by Manabu Namiki, and also adding to the confusion is the fact that the OST was both DDP DOJ and Ketsui on one CD.

[TLB]

Ketsui's patterns are just an entirely different dimension of insanity. They come from different angles, stop and change directions, and do all sorts of nutty things that make them really fun to dodge. I don't think any other Cave game has patterns quite like Ketsui's.

Progear

EXACTLY what I was going to say. Fuck. I don't know why everyone ignores this. Multi-colored bullatz?

The games play totally differently, but that's almost solely due to the multitude of SHIT THAT COMPLETELY CHANGES when you make a game like Progear.






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