Ibara impressions (yay, it's finally out!)

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Cthulhu
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Ibara impressions (yay, it's finally out!)

Post by Cthulhu »

Thinking I would play a round or two of Mushihime-sama and whatever else happened to be around, I went up the local arcade tonite and... lo and behold, Ibara was there. Naturally, I dumped about $12 or so into it tonite. :D

Okay, so, how is it? Well, my initial impressions were rather mixed, actually, but after a few plays, I really started to like it. The steampunk setting is a plus, the lovely 2D levels and enemies another plus, and the responsive controls another big plus. The minuses appeared quickly too, however.

The enemies use -lots- of long and thin bullets (you thought the giant bullets in Garegga were bad? Hah!), which got on my nerves (I never liked those things much), and the shrapnel... oh god, there is SO MUCH shrapnel in this game. It can be really, really hard to see what's going on in some of the levels simply because of the amount of crap flying around... yes, it really lets you "feel" the destruction you're causing, but I died way too many times from bullets that were partially obscured. Thankfully, the shrapnel problem is only present on the levels, and not on the bosses.

The powerup system is good, but it has a couple drawbacks: you get powerups for your main gun and then different types of "options" for the three gunpods that follow you around. When you stop firing, your movement aims the gunpods, which remain fixed when you're shooting. This is all fine. The variety of gunpods is nice, but the fact that there is at least one pod which is significantly weaker than the others - the machine gun - is a little annoying, since if you pick up an option it will replace one of the three you have; in effect, once you're past level 1 the machine gun is a power-down. Hrm. Also, why can't you pick which ship you want to be? Player 1 is the faster, weaker ship and player 2 is stronger and slower. I really don't understand why they fixed the ships to the players...

And yes, the biggest minus about the game is back from all of Raizing's other games... rank. Oh god is the rank system in Ibara vicious. Even the level 1 boss changes drastically depending on what your rank is - and it only goes downhill from there. This isn't bad if you're used to it, or if you don't mind rank systems (of course), but it drives me nuts. I managed to mash my way up to partway through level 4 before I simply found myself unable to cope with the amount of crap onscreen... there is -NO- way to 1CC this without mastering the rank system, and you can quote me on that. :wink:

The level design is solid, if a little "ordinary" - you go through a factory level, an ocean level, a train level (gee, a train level in a shmup, who'da thunk it?), etc. They're all well designed and fun, but they're not exactly original. The bosses fare a bit better, as they're nice, funky steampunk planes (well, mostly planes) that have a nice variety of pretty weaponry to reduce you to cinders with. There's an oddly large amount of ground enemies - tanks and fixed structures (buildings and turrets) - I think you destroy way more of those things than enemy planes. It's not a bad thing, it's just a little odd.

Other random comments... ahh yes, the bombs. I like them, they're a mix between the "strategic" bombs a la Raizing and the "oh shit" bombs of Cave. They come out quickly and destroy bullets, which is good, but they don't last very long, nor do they cover much territory if you only have a partial bomb (this game uses the Raizing system of gathering lots of bomb icons to build up a single regular bomb icon, and you can use partial bombs). The wave motion cannon bomb that they made a big deal about at first is REALLY powerful, although it's hard to save up enough bomb icons to use it later. It stays onscreen for a while (it creates this cool red vortex and slit across the screen) and keeps damaging whatever is under it (a boss, hopefully) and destroying bullets that touch it. I don't know how much it affects your rank, but I'm guessing it drives it up quite a bit. Why? Everything else does. :wink:

Ahh yes, one more little quip: the flamethrowers are really hard to see. They're not very bright and are partially transparent, so it's easy to overlook them in the middle of an intense firefight. One of the other people I watched play the game obliviously flew into a flamethrower shot too, so it wasn't just me.


Rundown:

Good stuff:

Steampunk theme
Flexible powerup system
Level & boss design
Control
Bomb system is balanced
Character designs (all the bosses are scantily clad cute female pilots 8) )

Bad stuff:

Evil, evil rank system
"Power down" machine gun options
Too much shrapnel
Slowdown is unpredictable (lots of slowdown in the train level, but not much against many of the bosses... where it might be helpful :lol: )
Enemy bullets can be hard to see (small bullets obscured by shrapnel and items, flamethrowers are too pale)
Did I mention the rank system?


It seems that years later, the Raizing crew (now under the auspices of Cave) still make the same type of games. Virutally all the good points and bad points of their old classics are revived here, making it a newer and prettier game that's easy to get used to (or easy to get fed up with for some, I'm sure). I might have talked a lot about negative things here, but that's because they're easier to discuss than the good points. (A whole thread about how the levels are good or how the bosses are fun would be pretty dull to read - and to write.) Ibara might be hard (really hard), and the rank in it might be really strict and hard to deal with, it's a damn fun game, and I'm glad it was made. I'll definitely feed some more money into next time I get the chance, and I'll start praying for a home version too.
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raiden
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Post by raiden »

one question: did you actually spot any Cave influence on the game? This sounds so much like Battle Garegga it makes me wonder.
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Post by freddiebamboo »

I was hoping for a merging of the two styles, but this does sound VERY garegga :?

Does it throw lives at you like bakraid?

And does it have any of the bakraid score mechanics?
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Post by highlandcattle »

could you check the credits to see which Cave boys are on board and which Raiz/8ing boys are on board.I wonder if it's just the designer
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Post by Randorama »

Someone translated the interview to its main programmers (I suppose GP), the leader of the project is Shinobu Yagawa, the Battle Garegga guy, and the main designer is Akira Wakabayashi (Cave guy).
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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Post by 8 1/2 »

Hmm. Sounds really, uh, odd. Can't wait to see some video of it. I love Garegga and Batrider, so I'm definitely interested, but I too was hoping for more Cave influence.
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Post by Stormowl »

evil battle garegga rank and even more debris? you won't see me complaining.

i'd love to give this a spin.
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Post by BIG »

This could very well be the first disappointing Cave title for me :(

Garegga? I friggin' HATE Garegga!

AAAARRGGHH!!

B-
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Post by Ord »

^^^^And i'm the total opposite! I love Raizing games and this just sounds like a brand new Raizing title. Happy days! 8)
Ikaruga review now up in PLASMA BLOSSOM
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Post by system11 »

I'm happy to hear this is in the Raizing style. We already have enough Cave games that play like Cave games do (and not a lot else from other companies), variety has been sadly missing of late.

Thanks for the lowdown Cthulu, nice find.
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Post by russ »

How's the music in this game? I know it must be loud as hell in a Japanese arcade, and the music may be hard to hear, but I've always been a big fan of the soundtracks in Cave's games....
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Post by BulletMagnet »

I wonder if the rank builds in similar fashion to Garegga's, in terms of keeping track of almost everything you do, rather than just one or two things (longevity, stock lives, etc.)...if it's as similar to Garegga as it sounds, it's probably the former.

I guess it's a bit of a breath of fresh air to see something "different" coming from Cave, since there hasn't been a Raizing-esque release in awhile, but the fact that few (if any :?) of Raizing's "issues" from years and years ago apparently STILL haven't been addressed doesn't exactly sit well with me, especially coming from Cave, which tends to make most recurring "shooter problems" (hard-to-see bullets, inaccessibility, etc.) total nonissues with most of their games.

Maybe this'll change as we learn more about how the thing works...
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Post by GaijinPunch »

Any word on the scoring system? I assume you'd need to go to Hey! to see that this early in the game. Rank huh... not too thrilled about that. In the interview, they said they bombs were really strong. I believe they said one (or maybe two) bombs will kill the first boss.
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Post by sven666 »

sounds like a true dream come true :D

i love the ranking system in garegga and this one sounds even more complex :D:D:D
gaaah.. think ill have to buy this game when it its around $600.. 8)
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Post by druuna »

This is THE GAME i'm waiting for!
Graphics seems very good...I'm loving explosions and end boss...as seen in that location test camvideo.
Let's hope for an home port....for our poor mortals.
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Post by sethsez »

I hate Garegga, so I'll probably hate this.

With that said... THANK YOU CAVE! It's great to see a Cave game that actually feels different. Fun as they may be, I still think they all feel like the same game with some tweaks here and there, so I'm happy to see a game stray so far from their standard feel, even if it wanders into Garegga territory. It gives me some hope for future Cave games that actually have their own identity beyond the art style.
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Post by GaijinPunch »

It gives me some hope for future Cave games that actually have their own identity beyond the art style.
Reminds me of the age old saying.
some old wiseman wrote:If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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Post by sethsez »

Except that Cave is now the only company to routinely put out professional quality shmups, so it's nice to have a wider variety of styles from them.

Besides, they release games at such a pace that there is such a thing as too much of the Cave style. When does it stop being "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and start being clear that they're just reusing assets while tweaking things here and there to get a steady stream of money from fans, even if their previous game is still considered a new release and plays almost exactly the same?

They make some quality games (though I'm not a huge fan, I can't deny they're good at what they do), but I'm just glad to see they're not resting on their laurels and becoming the EA of shmups.
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Post by GaijinPunch »

I can see where you're coming from... I just think that each game has a distinct scoring system... and definitely a different theme. Some I like (ESPGaluda) while others I don't (DOJ). Just me though.

Who knows... I may love Ibara. I'm in such a cave rut, I was tempted to pick up the PCB kit. Gotta wait until it's under $1000 though... well over a year if there's no home release.
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Post by professor ganson »

I wonder why they didn't just call it Battle Garegga 2. Maybe they don't own the rights.
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Post by Cthulhu »

Okay, lots of answers... bear with me here :D.
Lots of People wrote:How much Cave influence is there?
Honestly, Ibara feels far more like a Raizing game than a Cave game. The patterns feel more Cave-ish in several places... several bosses use spread shots that "layer" over each other as they move down the screen, which is very, very Cave-like. Raizing patterns show up in spades too of course (such as scattered but quick fire from quickly moving sources). It feels like a Raizing game with some Cave influence, rather than a Cave game with some Raizing influence. In particular, to me it felt more like Garegga than any other Raizing game.
russ wrote:How's the music in this game? I know it must be loud as hell in a Japanese arcade, and the music may be hard to hear, but I've always been a big fan of the soundtracks in Cave's games....
I could barely hear it to be honest. I was trying to pay more attention to it, but I just couldn't make out enough to really judge it. If I end up at an arcade where I can, I'll let you know. The explosions sound good though! :wink:
A few people wrote:How about scoring? What is it like?
The ramping medal system from Garegga (and other Raizing games iirc) returns - they start at 100 points and end up at 10,000 each. There are rose-shaped point icons too, which come out either when you destroy bullets with bombs or grab a powerup near bullets - when you grab a powerup, it turns all the bullets near you in a small radius into point icons. Also, you can get points by grabbing option types you already have - these net you 10k points each... but they drive your rank up like crazy :?. I don't know for sure, but I get the impression that the rose and metal point items don't affect your rank, but everything else does. 1-ups are more frequent than in most Cave games (I easily got two by the end of level 3), but I can't compare it to Bakraid, as I don't remember how 1-ups worked in that.
GaijinPunch wrote:In the interview, they said they bombs were really strong. I believe they said one (or maybe two) bombs will kill the first boss.
Yes, bombs are pretty powerful... especially the wave cannon bomb. That thing will tear bosses apart. It takes two full bomb icons to use though.
BulletMagnet wrote:I wonder if the rank builds in similar fashion to Garegga's, in terms of keeping track of almost everything you do, rather than just one or two things (longevity, stock lives, etc.)...if it's as similar to Garegga as it sounds, it's probably the former.
Yes, it keeps track of everything. I read an article about the rank system in Arcadia... the article didn't list everything that affects rank (in the article, they even claim that "there's so much that affects rank that we can't list it all" :wink: ), but I'll list what they did. The number of shots you fire, the number of items you pick up, and the number of bombs you use increases rank (note: I don't know if they mean "using bombs increases rank" or "the number of bombs you use affects rank [somehow]"), and dying decreases rank. They listed one other thing that lowers rank, but I forgot what it was... :oops:

The Arcadia article also stated that a good playstyle would be building up enough points for a 1up, then dying to lower rank, then building up points for a 1up again, and then dying again... yeah, sounds like Garegga.

Various people again wrote:I'm glad to hear that this game doesn't feel like a "normal" Cave game, it's good to hear that they can make multiple sytles of shmup.
Well, I like "normal" Cave games just fine :D, but I'm also glad to see that they can hire on designers and let them make their own stuff... but, that said:
BulletMagnet wrote:the fact that few (if any Confused) of Raizing's "issues" from years and years ago apparently STILL haven't been addressed doesn't exactly sit well with me, especially coming from Cave, which tends to make most recurring "shooter problems" (hard-to-see bullets, inaccessibility, etc.) total nonissues with most of their games.
Yeah, I kinda feel the same way about some things. The hard-to-see bullets problem has partially been addressed by highlighting the bullets, but they can still get covered up by shrapnel and items. Also, this game is about as inaccessible as it gets. I was taking a break from Ibara and I watched a few other people play it. One guy lasted literally less than five minutes. He didn't make it to the first boss even. After getting totally blown away, he got up and left the machine looking rather annoyed. I think that summarizes the way most non-shmup fans will feel about Ibara.
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Post by GaijinPunch »

He didn't make it to the first boss even. After getting totally blown away, he got up and left the machine looking rather annoyed. I think that summarizes the way most non-shmup fans will feel about Ibara.
This is strange. In the interview, they lead on to believe it would be a rather easy game.
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Post by Cthulhu »

GaijinPunch wrote: This is strange. In the interview, they lead on to believe it would be a rather easy game.
It's not. It's -really- difficult... possibly even harder than Garegga. The game is hard even if you know that you have to manage your rank so carefully (which causal players won't), but if you just try to hammer your way through the game it becomes nearly impossible by stage 4. (There are six stages IIRC... I coin-fed it to the end once.) The effects of the rank system are really noticeable even on the first boss (!), but by stage 4, if you haven't managed your rank properly, you've pretty much got no chance.
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Post by Dewclaw »

Sorry to derail here, but I've never had the concept of rank explained to me before. Does 'managing rank' mean purposefully not doing well to keep the game from punishing you for your skill?
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Post by sethsez »

Dewclaw wrote:Sorry to derail here, but I've never had the concept of rank explained to me before. Does 'managing rank' mean purposefully not doing well to keep the game from punishing you for your skill?
Pretty much, yes. Which is why there's a lot of contention over it among shmup fans.
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Post by Cthulhu »

Dewclaw wrote:Sorry to derail here, but I've never had the concept of rank explained to me before. Does 'managing rank' mean purposefully not doing well to keep the game from punishing you for your skill?
The whole "rank management" thing is explained better in the Garegga strategy threads, but here's the gist of it:

You need to avoid doing certain things so that the game doesn't jump up in difficulty. You're not "purposefully not doing well" - you're purposefully not picking up every last item, shooting every single enemy, holding down fire when there's nothing you can hit onscreen, etc. The game isn't exactly "punishing you for your skill" - it's punishing you for not playing by its rules (which aren't clearly stated :?). You must be both good at the game and well versed in -exactly- what you need to do in order to keep the rank level low in order to win... some people hate it (I've gotten a bit more used to it, but I still don't like it much), and others think it's great.
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Post by Capt. Takehiko »

Cave to me = Fantastic + 8ing to me = OK = A moderately good shmup.

I'll have to buy though, I love shmups with good designs and I don't have the guts to dodge a Cave title.
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Post by Dylan1CC »

Thanks for the great impressions! Here's hoping for home port. Wish I could play the real deal though.
raiden wrote:one question: did you actually spot any Cave influence on the game? This sounds so much like Battle Garegga it makes me wonder.
Yeah, it sounds like it is even more like Garegga than I thought it would be. Rank or no, that's ok by me. Love hurts. :)

The shrapnel, debris and small bullets didn't bother me in Garegga. Looks like those who had a real problem with it may want to avoid the Rose sisters and their explosions (yes! the more destructible elements in levels the better)

Also, the fact that it seems to have more ground forces than planes, I am intrigued by that. That will just add to the gritty atmosphere.
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Post by Recap »

Cthulhu wrote: You need to avoid doing certain things so that the game doesn't jump up in difficulty. You're not "purposefully not doing well" - you're purposefully not picking up every last item, shooting every single enemy, holding down fire when there's nothing you can hit onscreen, etc. The game isn't exactly "punishing you for your skill" - it's punishing you for not playing by its rules (which aren't clearly stated :?).
I don't think so. The game's "rules" can't involve doing things which go against your score, such as avoiding items or using bombs. It actually is a "punish for your skill", probably invented by Konami in the old years to get more of your money and adopted by too many developers, as Psikyo. It ruins the concept and I thought that we wouldn't see it again these days, to be honest.
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Post by Cthulhu »

Dylan1CC wrote:Thanks for the great impressions! Here's hoping for home port. Wish I could play the real deal though.

...

Also, the fact that it seems to have more ground forces than planes, I am intrigued by that. That will just add to the gritty atmosphere.
You're welcome :D.

Yeah, the emphasis on ground forces is interesting. It's definitely unique, as I can't think of any other vert game that has this much stuff on the ground for you to plow through.
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