So much for the "dead genre" line...

[TVG]

Oof. I bite my tongue on Raiden 3. I just read Gregs impressions in the Raiden III PS2 thread. You can't lock on with the toothpaste gun? gahhhh

you didnt know it o_O?

thats nothing new anyway, one useless weapon doesnt make the game suck, else raiden 2 would be the worst game in the world (i dare you try to pick the blue weapon)
i am sorry but the guy's opinion doesnt hold much weight, the graphics look nice too, IF you can accept the fact that its 3D that is.

[Tar-Palantir]

Why don't you try hard?

Don't try too hard.

[Acid King]

I need to clarify a point.

Heavy Metal is a dead music genre even though many people listen to that kind of music and even though many bands write new songs every day.

The only thing that makes metal and shooters considered dead genres is the fact that people equate sales with life (and if that's the case metal was never "alive" to begin with). If that's what you think it means, then yes, shooters are dead and gone. There will never be another top selling shooting game ever. If, on the other hand, you consider steady production of quality games/music a sign of life, than neither metal or shooters will ever be dead. By the way, that's a bad ass avatar.

there's a lot of stuff coming out, but not much of it is worthwhile.

That statement applies to every genre of anything and everything, all the time, forever... and ever.

[Cthulhu]

My comments ....

[Cthulhu]
THE VAGRANT
SAM

None of those are my quotes!!! Those were added into my message by kid aphex when he quoted me. Please edit that!

[sethsez]

This is what I called "Good Old Days" symptom, people have this symptom just keep saying that now a days games is not as good as those old classic used to be and the genru is dieing etc.

I'd just like to say that I think it's ironic that this is being said about me, when I'm usually the one screaming it from the rooftops.

The genre as it existed in the 80s and early 90s is dead. It's no longer a big draw, it no longer makes a lot of money, it's no longer the technical benchmark that it once was (remember when shmups were among the most technically advanced games out there?). The genre is dead in the same sense that graphical adventures are dead... sure, new games come out (Still Life, for example, is a recent graphical adventure), but they're almost completely irrelevant to the industry at large. They have a nice little formula, some tweaks here and there, but by and large it just exists, happily pleasing its niche fanbase and not making a damn bit of difference outside of that.

So maybe dead is too strong a word. Comatose, maybe.

I consider myself a shmups fan. Border Down is one of my favorite games this generation, and I love the SnS series. I'm also eagerly awaiting Nanostray because I enjoyed Iridion II more than most here. But as a fan, I also concede that it no longer retains any relevance outside of its own niche, and that the last major strides foward were made years ago. That doesn't affect my own personal enjoyment of the games any, just like I've conceded that space sims are dead and buried despite them being my second favorite genre (Freespace II being my favorite PC game).

Finally, there's nothing wrong with judging a book by its cover when you're faced with 20 books that will cost around $50 each. I don't have the time, money, or inclination to buy any and every game that comes down the line even if my first (and every subsequent) impression is negative. If I think Chaos Field, for example, looks like refried crap (and have heard as much from other people whose opinions I trust), why should I buy it?

[Cthulhu]

The genre as it existed in the 80s and early 90s is dead. It's no longer a big draw, it no longer makes a lot of money, it's no longer the technical benchmark that it once was...

Finally, there's nothing wrong with judging a book by its cover when you're faced with 20 books that will cost around $50 each. I don't have the time, money, or inclination to buy any and every game that comes down the line even if my first (and every subsequent) impression is negative. If I think Chaos Field, for example, looks like refried crap (and have heard as much from other people whose opinions I trust), why should I buy it?

Good points. I don't think there are any genres left that have stayed the same though - people make all the comments they like about redundant games (especially in genres they don't like), but things change everywhere.

I think people judging games games like Chaos Field, which has been played by a good number of people and has a large amount of meaningful feedback available, is just fine. But when people start talking about how Sengoku Cannon is "more of the same" even though there are less than a dozen tiny screenshots of the game available, however, that's when I sigh in despair.

[Dylan1CC]

Oof. I bite my tongue on Raiden 3. I just read Gregs impressions in the Raiden III PS2 thread. You can't lock on with the toothpaste gun? gahhhh

you didnt know it o_O?

No, unfortunately I haven't been keeping as up to speed on Raiden III for awhile after watching a few videos of levels 1-3 (?) and that was months ago.

thats nothing new anyway, one useless weapon doesnt make the game suck, else raiden 2 would be the worst game in the world (i dare you try to pick the blue weapon)
i am sorry but the guy's opinion doesnt hold much weight, the graphics look nice too, IF you can accept the fact that its 3D that is

Very good point there.

I'm just a little worried now, final judgement later 'n all.

[DeBurgo]

What I learned from the forums today, by Cthulhu:

Many shmup fans like shmups, but many seem to hate them too. I don't understand why. Why do people who like games hate them? People are scary.

People also judge books by their cover. Even when their cover is a small picture of an incomplete game, people judge it. I don't understand why. People are scary.

I don't know how serious you're being, but one of the poster's in this thread is right: You DON'T have to like every single game that comes out, even if that means hating most of the games.

On the other hand, though, that doesn't mean you have to be extremely flamboyant and vocal about it, causing unwanted arguments. It's better to be moderate and humble about your likes and dislikes, otherwise I think it causes trouble for everyone Also, I agree that judging a game too harsly before it's even released is a bit much.

[Nate]

kid aphex wrote:

Here's where another problem comes in: sometimes you need to be shooting at ships that seem to be in the background --- but they're impossible to differentiate from what's real background.

O.K Here's a breakthrough: Sometimes we play the game over and over to "feel-out" when a moment like this happens. It's called "learning patterns" or "mastering the environment". Einhander and G Darius come to mind for some reason...Actually... Sounds more to me like a new twist on an old angle. One that the jaded shooterfan is probably willing to try to embrace...Seriously, the only flaw I see in this title, although I have NOT played it, is the fact that it's on the XBOX...And I ain't got one.
I know I'll play this game someday when it comes out. I know I'll be impressed to some extent. Just not sure what...

BTW Chtulu...

All you gotta say to the "naysayers" is: "Psssht, Gradius V...Most warping game on the planet. Now go fuck yourself(selves)".


Shmup on!

[sethsez]

^^^actually, I consider that a design flaw no matter what game does it. In any 3D game, if it's hard or impossible to tell where something is, reviews knock it down a point. I liked the way Border Down did it... enemies very rarely flew in from close behind. They were either WAY off in the distance, or you could shoot them. There was no "is it or isn't it" moment. Gradius V also did fairly well with this also, since it did a good job of making sure that when enemies DID fly in, they did so on the sides. I think G-Darius was poor at this, however... too often you couldn't tell when exactly a ship was going to cross into the plane you're playing on, because they were often just far enough in the distance to not be affected by your shots, but close enough that you couldn't immediately tell sometimes.

I don't know whether Xyanide suffers from this or not (just to head off anyone telling me to not judge it prematurely ), but if it does, it's a legitimate complaint. You can't expect gamers to fight off enemies if they can't actually discern where the enemies are.

[Cthulhu]

I don't know whether Xyanide suffers from this or not (just to head off anyone telling me to not judge it prematurely ), but if it does, it's a legitimate complaint. You can't expect gamers to fight off enemies if they can't actually discern where the enemies are.

I guess I got carried away in a few of my posts here.

Yes, you can judge a game without playing it. Reviews are (well, can be) meaningful, and videos can give you a perfectly legitimate idea of what a game is like. I think some people take this too far, but the idea that you can't make a judgement call about the quality of something without testing it yourself is wrong. Sorry I got carried away.

Next, you don't have to like everything. Hell, you don't -have- to like anything. Go ahead, hate it all, have fun. Or enjoy it all. Do whatever you like. When I disagree with someone or find their reasons for disliking something objectionable, I'll comment on it, but I didn't mean to say that everyone needs to like everything that even resembles a shmup.

m(__)m

[sethsez]

Heh, I can get carried away too.

*everyone gasps*

No, really, it's true!

No worries.

[Marc]

Bottom line is, there's a shitload of games due to come out and at least a few of em are bound to be good. It's going to depend entirely on YOUR OWN OPINION which one's, but there's something for everyone except the truly negative assholes on that list. So what's everyone's problem?

It's nothing new, and it'll never go away. Time just manages to sift out the bad and leave the good, like it always has.

Amen. Common sense. Same with music, books, whatever.

Games like Halo and Resident Mid-Evil are the ones that should be dying...I'm so sick and tired of games like that...there are about 50 billion of them on the market and they all play the same. How many times can you look at somebody getting their head blown off before you get sick of it? Thats why I consistantly go back to my shmup roots...thats where the fun is...the true replay value

You and FatCobra should lock yourselves in a dark room with a bunch of retro consoles and shooters, and maybe a tube of lube. Play till you drop, thus leaving the rest of us open-minded VIDEO GAMERS to get on with enjoying our hobby, whether the games are 20, 10 or 1 year old.

[iatneH]

So are shooters more like... undead..? Especially with Thunder Force's busting out of the coffin analogy...

Anyway, personally I'm looking forward to plenty of these releases and will be spending a good chunk of money in July!

[kid aphex]

No, the ultimate irony is someone becoming a member of a shmup fan site and then dissing the shmup genre.

There's a difference between insulting a genre, and insulting the modern state of a genre. From what I saw, he likes shmups. He just doesn't like where shmups have been going lately. Being a fan doesn't mean blindly loving everything that comes out.

Thank god someone understands.

I love shmups. They're the only games I still pay attention to. I keep up with news and new releases, and play-to-death the classics. But just because something RESEMBLING a shmup is released doesn't mean it deserves the respect of the genre.

Traditional shmups just aren't viable nowadays. Point to the Gradius V's, the R-Type Finals, etc.; but you're providing the minority as an example. Back in the SNES/Gen/16-Bit days, when the capabilities/audience were a bit more limited, shmups had themselves a guaranteed market share ... if nothing else, for their visuals.

What I'm witnessing is the makers of said games exploiting the shrunken market ... pouring out under-developed, under-achieving garbage to a starved fan-base. And it bothers me.

[very drunk, so disregard the jumbled and possibly disjointed post]

[TVG]

yea, youd better wait til you're not drunk, cause i dont understand what you're trying to say at all.
a few shmups are sub par, so what?

anyways i think this discussion went out too long, the optimists will be optimistic, the pessimists will be pessimistic no matter what. move on.

[kid aphex]

yea, youd better wait til you're not drunk, cause i dont understand what you're trying to say at all.
a few shmups are sub par, so what?

anyways i think this discussion went out too long, the optimists will be optimistic, the pessimists will be pessimistic no matter what. move on.

Even drunk, my point was still pretty obvious to anyone able to spell "yeah":

The ratio of sub-par/above-average shmups is getting more and more depressing as time goes by.

[TVG]

http://www.shmup.com/index.php?page=jeux&annee_tri=1993

this is the entry you get for the year 93 on the shmup french database.
i know most of you cant read it, but plenty of these games are garbage, most are average with some standing above the rest.
this isnt an exclusive list, i bet most of the crappiest games arent even reviewed.

i have to ressort to quoting that site because i lack the knowledge necessary to back up such claims, but this is proof enough, and 93 was a damn good year it seems.

[kid aphex]

He's not "insulting the modern state of the genre", he's insulting shmups which he's never even PLAYED before-except for a cell-phone port of Xyanide, (unless he lives in the Netherlands and works for Playlogic; there's NO WAY he's played the XBOX port)-and that haven't even come OUT yet. That's absurdity; can we not even WAIT until a shmup comes out and we've played it before we declare it to be crap?!

Alright, JACKSON.

--- except I have played it. At past E3's. And yes, before you ditch the Captain Sureofhimself cape for the mask of Captain Obvious, things could've changed since ANY E3.

And even if he doesn't like the modern state of the genre, so what? Then he should quit griping, go get a Genesis and an SNES and stock up on older shmups.

That's not really what this thread is about. It's pretty obvious this thread is about modern shmups, as per the title/first post. Obvious to anyone.

[ROBOTRON]

You and FatCobra should lock yourselves in a dark room with a bunch of retro consoles and shooters, and maybe a tube of lube.

Yeah, your right.

How dare I proclaim my affection for shmups and the shmup genre at a forum dedicated to the hobby. I should be put in my place, and be made fun of with homo jokes.



I never said I liked EVERY shmup ever made, nor do I run blindly to my import store to buy new shooters when they come out just because they are new. I read reviews, and do my research before I buy...which is one of the reasons why I come here in the 1st place.

Yes, I prefer R-Type Final and Gradius 5 to modern console games like RE and Halo...anyday. Its just my personal preference. Tell ya what, I promise I won't come join your Halo or RE site and start knocking the genre of games you play, ok?

Anyway, shmups are my fav genre, and I'm not gonna apologize to anyone here for that, I don't care how many shots to teeth I gotta take for saying it.

So go ahead and continue posting about how dead the genre is and how all the games suck...and I'll await your next thread entitled: "OMG!!! Nokami Don Do Pachi #15 is the best shooter I've ever played!!!" GO BUY IT!

Hypocrite.

[TVG]

you might have said that before.

and i think dave is almost the only person exited about xyanide on this site, frankly, how could anyone come to the conclusion that it was a shmup judging from the xbox screens is beyond me.

so we have this debate over finally, xyanide is not a shmup.
that isnt to say that it wont be a good game.

and still doesnt change the fact that you're overly too negative and judge shit too quckly, but im not interested in changing your mind, i wrote enough replies in this thread already.
cept if you want to share some info about stuff you played at E3.

[Marc]

Right, to tackle your points in order:

Quote:
You and FatCobra should lock yourselves in a dark room with a bunch of retro consoles and shooters, and maybe a tube of lube.


Yeah, your right.

How dare I proclaim my affection for shmups and the shmup genre at a forum dedicated to the hobby. I should be put in my place, and be made fun of with homo jokes.

Dude, if you really took offence at that, I apologise. Just a bit of friendly piss taking, none intended.

It's not you proclaiming your affection for shmups that has earned my ire, it's the over-simplified mainstream-bashing that you and FatCobra seem to slip into so easily. For example, I know that Jp has no love for the mainstream, but at least he refrains from slipping into these tedious little rants everytime he posts, so I'm cool with it.

I never said I liked EVERY shmup ever made, nor do I run blindly to my import store to buy new shooters when they come out just because they are new. I read reviews, and do my research before I buy...which is one of the reasons why I come here in the 1st place.

Yes, I prefer R-Type Final and Gradius 5 to modern console games like RE and Halo...anyday. Its just my personal preference. Tell ya what, I promise I won't come join your Halo or RE site and start knocking the genre of games you play, ok?

Knocking shmups? Me? Where? I refer you to my original post:

Bottom line is, there's a shitload of games due to come out and at least a few of em are bound to be good. It's going to depend entirely on YOUR OWN OPINION which one's, but there's something for everyone except the truly negative assholes on that list. So what's everyone's problem?

I'm trying to point out that everyone on this board should find at least one game on that list that appeals to them. How is that knocking exactly?

Anyway, shmups are my fav genre, and I'm not gonna apologize to anyone here for that, I don't care how many shots to teeth I gotta take for saying it.

So go ahead and continue posting about how dead the genre is and how all the games suck...and I'll await your next thread entitled: "OMG!!! Nokami Don Do Pachi #15 is the best shooter I've ever played!!!" GO BUY IT!

Hypocrite.

Woah, down boy.
Yeah, I'm down with shmups being your fave genre, they're mine too, that's why we're both here right?

However, I'm NOT down with this constant mainstream-bashing. It's getting tedious, repetative and dull. It's like the underground punk/metal fan that's so convinced that their preferred style of music is the only one with any real meaning or artistic merit, that everything else is automatically rendered souless and worthless. It's blinkered, narrow-minded, and plain old WRONG.

You're perfectly entitled to have an opinion, but don't you think that your description of Halo/Resi was over-simplified and a little stupid? It's like me dumbing down a description of shmups to

'Oh, those games, you just shoot stuff, then you shoot a bigger one at the end of every level. They're old, and most of them have crap graphics. And anyway, they're not even that hard, because you can just continue until you've finished most of them. And they're all the same thing anyways.'.

It's totally retarded of course, but you're trying to sum up two pretty decent games with the same boneheaded sort of generalisation. It it really pisses me off to hear stuff like that. If you don't like the games, fine. But if you're going to provide reasons, make them articulate and informative, instead of them sounding like something an eight year old might spout.

And I certainly haven't posted about how the genre is dead. In fact, I really don't give a shit whether the shmups 'scene' is considered dead or not. I like the games, I like this forum, and that's all that matters to me, but I get annoyed because at ignorance like yours because that's how players of 2D/retro games all end up painted as uber-nerdy super-geeks with a hatred of anything that's either western or remotely successful.

Let's all just be friends eh?

[ROBOTRON]

It's not you proclaiming your affection for shmups that has earned my ire, it's the over-simplified mainstream-bashing that you and FatCobra seem to slip into so easily. For example, I know that Jp has no love for the mainstream, but at least he refrains from slipping into these tedious little rants everytime he posts, so I'm cool with it.

I didn't create this thread and I certainly didn't start the "genre is dead" rant.

My critique of RE and Halo aren't from the outside looking in, I actually bought both games based on the reviews from other people and played them. So its not like I said "Oh, its just more head blasting " and refused to buy it...I just said that one bit instead of writing a 2 page "bonehead" essay on why I didn't like either game. However if you want a full review on why I didn't like them, I'll write one.

I didn't think so.

Wanna be friends? No problem, cool it with the gay jokes (I'm not gay) and maybe we can. I was gonna comment some more but forget it...like beating a dead horse.

[Thunder Force]

The "Free Range" 360° weapon system in Xyanide has the potential to be really addictive for fans of that kind of control scheme. Sort of like taking the controls of Geometry Wars and adapting them into a shmup, it's a good idea

The problem was that ships would move in and out of the plane of firing ... and without any visual cue. Your shots just wouldn't be hitting them all of a sudden.

Well other shmups like Philosoma and Thunderforce V, for example, have done this kind of thing before. I think it's nice to see Xyanide working with the idea again. It's quite a fun effect and not disorienting at all once you play through levels a few times and you know what's coming.

sometimes you need to be shooting at ships that seem to be in the background --- but they're impossible to differentiate from what's real background.

Reminds me of the blending issues in Internal Section. There were lots of times in that game where the player's eyes essentially melt and the screen becomes a blur. Still great fun though

Really I don't think the features you mention in Xyanide are going to be an issue to all players here. What I've seen already of Xyanide makes me confident there's going to be a lot to like about the game. As long as the flagship Xbox version actually sees the light of day, and we don't instead just get the watered down PSP port that was recently announced (still looked decent on PSP though, but a bit too close to the cellphone version for my taste...)

Oh, and what happened to the retro-looking GBA version? Did that ever get rescheduled?

I'm starting to think if Xyanide never gets published it will be like The Red Star and only live through something like an internet beta leak.

[SAM]

What I'm witnessing is the makers of said games exploiting the shrunken market ... pouring out under-developed, under-achieving garbage to a starved fan-base. And it bothers me.

Under-developed, under-achieving shmup really hurt the genru. Since new comers usually cann't distingush good shmup amoung the lots that is avaliable. If they pick the bad ones, we would have one less fan.

The quality of a shmup can be easily be judged by looking into its developer's past releases. Since developer turning out rubbishs used to turn out anoter rubbish; developer turning out great games, would usually turn out above average release.


My way of judging new shmup is simple.

For arcade port, I would try it out at the arcade first.

For Doujin games I used to try the demo.

If I cannot get my hands on the game first I woudl decide this way.

Any shmup from Trasure, Cave or Konami, etc. would be above average.

Shmups from Capcom, Taito, Irem etc. would usually be average.

Shmup from unheard developers, say Tri-somthing would usually be garbage.

It really takes a lots of good comments to got me to buy games form a unheard developers.





I would rather to have a few good quality releases over the year than tons of under-develop games with only a few worth playing. A single good game is enough to keep me busy for months. First I tried to clear it, then I tried to 1cc it, then I try to master it.

A good RPG can hold you as long as the story goes. But a good shmup would keep to coming back again and again.

[AngelFish]

I think the shoot'em ups arent really dead but having a hibernation for a bit.

[AngelFish]

Ive played Xyanide on the N-gage. the gameplay was mediocre, the controls was like playing asteroids and smash Tv. and the camera angles were like all over the place.

[ROBOTRON]

Ive played Xyanide on the N-gage. the gameplay was mediocre, the controls was like playing asteroids and smash Tv. and the camera angles were like all over the place.

I sure hope the XBox version comes to light...its really the only reason why I'm holding onto my Xbox right now. The game looks hype. I can't help going back to the Playlogic website and looking at the demo over and over. It looks ground-breaking, I hope it plays as good as it looks.

[Nemo]

What's the point of even worrying about if the genre is "alive" or "dead", it's just all "fan" induced BS anyway, as long as people play the games the genre is alive. And when has the genre even ever sputtered with releases, this year is the relatively the same as the last and the year before and the year before that.

[jp]

Why does it matter how "alive" the genre is? I mean, I agree, very few new shmups interest me at all since I hate manics (aside from Mars Matrix and Batsugun) and I honestly don't believe the new TSS will be half the game the original was (its made by SNKP, thats almost as bad as 3rd party Sega).


But I digress, shmups aren't dead to me, because I play them everyday. And if once a year or so a new one comes out that I'll buy, fine. Nanostray next month... hells yeah.