So much for the "dead genre" line...

Metal Gear Okt · Post by **Metal Gear Okt** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:18 pm

I recently was given P.N.03 as a gift. Not a great game by any stretch, but it did its best to incorporate shmup elements into a fully 3d game.

That said, our pet genre here is decidedly niche at the moment. It's not quite as moribund as, say, the graphical adventure, but you need to do a bit of work to find quality titles.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:20 pm

P.N.03 is very cool!

I'm excited about the Taito Collections, but I wish Empire Interactive would FINALLY give US gamers over here a final game list and release date. It seems like this is taking forever!

Metal Gear Okt · Post by **Metal Gear Okt** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:21 pm

Importing is basically a necessity.

I was getting by for a while with my DC, but sadly, Cave has forsaken it, so i modded my PS2.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:53 pm

Yeah, but I'm talking about a collection is supposed to come out here in the US, and we still haven't gotten a final game list or release date.

Metal Gear Okt · Post by **Metal Gear Okt** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:55 pm

but the capcom collection has Forgotten Worlds!

TVG · Post by **TVG** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:11 pm

shumps are dead, im very sad in my world of misery of despair, woe is me, i suffer in blood and tears, nobody understands my holy self, darkness, despair, roms.

fuck you bitches.

i think we all know that xyanide and nanostray will suck, tho.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:12 pm

ROBOTRON wrote:
kid aphex wrote:I dont mean to sound like an asshole --- but with that list? The genre might as well be dead.

I'm sorry, but what's anyone to be excited about? Remakes? Republished shit? Bland, might-as-well-be-fan-made horseshit? Sequels that don't stand a CHANCE of living up to their name?

Honestly. There's no innovation, no risks, no creativity --- nothing. Besides Mushi, Under Defeat is the only game to look like it's actually had some TIME SPENT ON IT by its developers who actually care about putting out a FINISHED final product.

Shooters aren't dead yet ... but with this steady stream of under-developed and uncreative garbage bruising the genre, it doesn't have much longer.
No offense, but why are you here? Why would become a member of a shmup fan site and post something like that?

Because sometimes it takes a real fan of a genre to realize when it's hit a serious downswing? I agree with him... there's a lot of stuff coming out, but not much of it is worthwhile.

Anyway, shmups are not dead...hell, they practically invented the home and arcade maket.

What do these two statements have to do with each other?

"Abraham Lincoln isn't dead, he was really important in American history!"

Nobody is saying shmups weren't important and vital. They just aren't now.

Games like Halo and Resident Mid-Evil are the ones that should be dying...I'm so sick and tired of games like that...there are about 50 billion of them on the market and they all play the same. How many times can you look at somebody getting their head blown off before you get sick of it? Thats why I consistantly go back to my shmup roots...thats where the fun is...the true replay value.

Hahahahahaha. I'll take "Irony" for $100, Alex.

You do realize that most people feel exactly the same way about shmups today, which is exactly why they're so unimportant in modern gaming, right? And if someone can play Cave shmups or Psykio shmups and then blast other genres for being too samey with a straight face, it takes a lot of talent, or some seriously blind devotion.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:28 pm

Only one person on this forum has played Xyanide ; I personally wouldn't judge it by that-he didn't like it, but others may-just like Gigawing Generations.

But I agree that shmups aren't dead. As long as companies are willing to produce them, and they don't show any signs of stopping, then they will continue to be around-maybe in lesser numbers then games in other genre's, but they will be around.

"And if someone can play Cave shmups or Psykio shmups and then blast other genres for being too samey with a straight face, it takes a lot of talent, or some seriously blind devotion."

As much as I love shmups, this statement is absolutely true, IMO.

Iccy · Post by **Iccy** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:34 pm

Games in general these days are uninspired and are a rehash/update of something else. I agree with Kid Aphex that most games these days lack innovation or character. I really think he's got a point there, but it's not just the Shmup genre. It's every genre. Do you see any game company's letting go of thier claims to fame? EA seems to be the biggest of company's to blame for this. They seem to pump out a sequel to a game every week, but never anything new for ages.

That doesn't mean that the games suck, not at all. A lot of it is just down to the gaming market going mainstream. Appealing to everyone seems to be the main thing these days, and if it wasn't for those kinds of games, it probably wouldn't inspire people to want to produce new and creative ideas. I know a buttload of people at my college who are busting to get thier ideas out. I've even had a few ideas myself about what i'd like to do with some genre's. So you people who are sick and tired of "the same old shit" should probably give it a bit of time before some new ideas and games come about. Like a could 4/5 years infact. Hell, if you cant wait that long, think up some ideas yourself.

What an entry post... Hi everyone : D

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:40 pm

The gaming industry has always been full of rehashes, blatant ripoffs, and sequels. It has nothing to do with gaming going mainstream, and everything to do with the fact that most people just don't have original ideas. I mean, how many games have ripped off basic Toaplan designs?

It's nothing new, and it'll never go away. Time just manages to sift out the bad and leave the good, like it always has.

FatCobra · Post by **FatCobra** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:52 pm

sethsez wrote:The gaming industry has always been full of rehashes, blatant ripoffs, and sequels. It has nothing to do with gaming going mainstream, and everything to do with the fact that most people just don't have original ideas. I mean, how many games have ripped off basic Toaplan designs?

It's nothing new, and it'll never go away. Time just manages to sift out the bad and leave the good, like it always has.

Without going into my "mainstream BAD!" mood, I do agree with you. Give this generation a decade or so and see what is considered "classic" then.

As for shmups, if none are being releashed in the States, they're considered dead for me. I'd get a JPS2, but money constraints are preventing me from doing so.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:31 pm

Well, unless you're really into Cave or Psikyo, get a J-PSone; they're over $100 cheaper, and still have plenty of awesome exclusives.

Or get a Saturn; you don't need to have a J-PSTwo to enjoy import shmupping.

ROBOTRON · Post by **ROBOTRON** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:50 pm

What do these two statements have to do with each other?

"Abraham Lincoln isn't dead, he was really important in American history!"

Nobody is saying shmups weren't important and vital. They just aren't now.

I didn't put that statement in there to prove my point, it was just merely a statement of fact...of shmup's importance to modern gaming.

Hahahahahaha. I'll take "Irony" for $100, Alex.

Heh, the intellectual speaks.

No, the ultimate irony is someone becoming a member of a shmup fan site and then dissing the shmup genre.

"Hello everyone. As a proud member of shmup forum.com, I'd like to say that all shmups are has-beens and are going down the tubes forever, thank you."

lol.

Anyway, when I made my original post...I wasn't trying to insult anyone (thats the reason I put "No offense" at the beginning), I guess what I was trying to say was that I would prefer a good shmup (classic or new) to any of the modern tripe thats out there including most FPS and crap like RE.

FatCobra · Post by **FatCobra** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:53 pm

ROBOTRON wrote:Anyway, when I made my original post...I wasn't trying to insult anyone (thats the reason I put "No offense" at the beginning), I guess what I was trying to say was that I would prefer a good shmup (classic or new) to any of the modern tripe thats out there including most FPS and crap like RE.

Exactely, cept when I say something like that, I start a flame war. But, I guess my rants are more along the lines of "LOL!!!11 Mainstream gaming is teh SuX0rZ!!!111"

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:54 pm

Thunder Force wrote:Shmups are just like the Dreamcast; presumed dead, accidentally buried, now burst out of their coffins pissed off and more powerful than ever... to be worshipped by underground fanatic cults worldwide who await the coming of the mainstream gaming apocalypse

ALL YOUR SIG ARE BELONG TO US.

Kaspal · Post by **Kaspal** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:48 am

i dont know...
i dont go much onto the arcade thing, and dont even think about console releases, CUZ i dont have one ...

i mostly play doujins, and, if you take those, then you see that as the ASIAN market goes, the genre its anything BUT DEAD ...

i mean, every year, theres a buncha new games commin out in japan. yes, they can be homebrewed, indy like and maybe not "pro" appealing, but HECK, they're good...

its true that CAVE, Pskyo andother companies are releasing stuff for arcade/console markets, but i dont think that because theres no formal releases in the US (as a side note, im not in the US), u can consider the genre as dead.... if the games dont get released in the US market, maybe its cuz its not as mainstream as, say, Sport, Drivin and FPS ... and you all know, that the US market its for mainstream public ..

right now, STGs are for a "niche" with releases every 3 months, ones with hell of a good quality, and others with not so good Q. but, at least we have releases, and we can satisfy our gamin starve!!!...

i dont live in japan (the major STG market in the whole world and has been like that for the entire history of the genre), but i try to be up to date about the games commin out for PC, so, if i can, i get a hold of them, so i can play somethin new every now and then...........................................

all in all, the genre ITS NOT dead ... its just rserved for a reduced group of fans who get good stuff every year to keep goin.

i myself preffer to play my J-STGs than playin, say, UT2004 or any other thing, and i used to play the latter a lot more than shmups, but i got bored of them, and ONLY play the ones that i think are good to play, but when it comes about to shmups, i just play'em all! ... so, i xpend my time playin STGs (or puzzles, it deppends on how much time and how much adrenaline i wanna waste) than Sports or FPS ...

¡¡ SHMUPS BANZAI !!

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:33 am

ROBOTRON wrote:No, the ultimate irony is someone becoming a member of a shmup fan site and then dissing the shmup genre.

There's a difference between insulting a genre, and insulting the modern state of a genre. From what I saw, he likes shmups. He just doesn't like where shmups have been going lately. Being a fan doesn't mean blindly loving everything that comes out.

TVG · Post by **TVG** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:38 am

sethsez wrote:
ROBOTRON wrote:No, the ultimate irony is someone becoming a member of a shmup fan site and then dissing the shmup genre.
There's a difference between insulting a genre, and insulting the modern state of a genre. From what I saw, he likes shmups. He just doesn't like where shmups have been going lately. Being a fan doesn't mean blindly loving everything that comes out.

there's a difference between not having high hopes for an upcoming game, and talking out of his ass to make every upcoming game seem bad.

he even said "plays and looks bad" about a game no one has played for fucks sake, what is that guy, an idiot?

i know what you're trying to say sethsez, but using his words to prove your point isnt a bright idea.

TVG · Post by **TVG** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:57 am

because i have some time to spare, my reply is with CAPS ON, to make it more readable.

Cthulhu wrote:Mushihimesama [Excited about it] OK
Sigma Star Saga [A cartoony, mixed genre mess] DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT IT IS, SO I CANT COMMEENT ON THAT ONE

Nanostray (DS) [Looks playable ... like Iridion 2 was 2 years ago] WELL, YOU MIGHT AS WELL SAY THAT IT LOOKS BAD, BECAUSE IT DOES

La Petite Princesse [Non-traditional ... non-interesting. Got the roms.]
WHAT AN AWESOME REASON, "GOT THE ROMS" WHY BUY NEW GAMES WHEN WE CANT EVEN FINISH THE 10000 ROMS THAT WE DOWNLOADED, RIGHT?
ANYWAY I DONT REALLY CARE ABOUT TSS CAUSE I DONT HAVE ANYONE TO PLAY IT WITH, SO MEH.

Chaos Field [Synonym in the dictionary for "Incomplete, Unfinished, Lacking"]
OK, AND? PLENTY OF PEOPLE LIKE TO PLAY IT, AND ITS NOTHING MORE THAN A LOW BUDGET SHMUP, WHATS WRONG WITH IT?

Xexex (PS2) [Thanks for THAT price and cool packaging. I'll stick to Mame] THUMBS UP, WHY BUY PS2 GAMES WHEN I CCAN DOWNLOAD THE ISO, RETARD.
BESIDES, I THINK THAT XEXEX LONE ON A DISC IS A JOKE, TOO.

Raiden III (PS2) [Nothing less than in insult] BASED ON WHAT? SERIOUSLY, ABOUT 2 PERSONS ON THIS FORUM PLAYED IT AND SOME PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IT LIKE ITS THE PLAGUE, SERIOUSLY, IF YOU CANT UNDERSTAND WHY SOME DEVELOPPERS CANT AFFORD TO PRODUCT A GOOD LOOKING SPRITE BASED GAME, YOU REALLY SHOULDNT TALK.

Xyanide (XBOX) [Horrible. Played it. Not a shmup.
AS MUCH AS I AGREE THAT IT LOOKS BAD, YOU'RE PROBABLY LIKE ALL OF US AND ONLY PLAYED THE CRAPPY N-GAGEE DEMO, SAYING "PLAYED IT" IS DOWNRIGHT LYING.

Sengoku Cannon (PSP) [Never liked the series ... besides that, uninspired] ANOTHER GREAT REASON TO SAY A GENRE IS DEAD, AWESOME, UNINSPIRED? YOU MUST BE A PROPHET, BECAUSE SO FAR THERE'S ABOUT 3 SCREENSHOTS.

Shikigami no Shiro 3 (AC) [Could be interesting, at least they keep production/development up on the Shiki games.]
YEA, SHIKI 2 WAS DAMN GOOD, IF THEY MANAGE TO PUT OUT THE ONLY MAJOR FLAW OF THE 2ND (DULL FIRST 2 LEVELS) IT COULD BE A CLASSIC, ESPECIALLY AFTER SEEING HOW MUCH THE SERIES IMPROVED IN ONE INSTALLMENT.

Senko no Ronde (semi-shmup, DC) [Sigh]
ONOS, AN INNOVATIVE GAME, DAMMIT.

Ibara (AC ) [Looks great ---- next year.]
YOU MEAN LOOKS GREAT, AND I CANT REALLY SAY ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT IT?

Homura (AC) [HOLY BLAND]
YOU FUCKIN ROCK DUDE, SAYING "ITS BLAND" OF GAMES YOU NEVER PLAYED IS PURE GENIOUS I SWEAR.

Under Defeat (AC) [Looks amazing. I guess this is where G.Rev directed most of their talent over the past year...]

NOW THAT ONE LOOKS BLAND, BUT IT DOES BECAUSE ON THE 2 VIDS I SAW, NOTHING HAPPENED.
OF COURSE IM PROBABLY WRONG, BUT AT LEAST I HAVE A VALID REASON TO SAY IT LOOKS BLAND.

Rajirugi / Radilgy (AC) [Newgrounds games have played/looked better]
SEE ABOVE.

Capcom game compilation (PS2) [roms on my xbox]
Taito compilation 1 (PS2) [roms on my xbox]
Taito compilation 2 (PS2) [roms on my xbox]
HAHA

Shikigami no Shiro adventure/shmup (PS2) [more mish mashed bs]
BECAUSE A MIXTURE OF 2 GENRES IS JUST TOTALLY GENUALLY BAD.

sorry for the caps, couldnt find a lazyer way to make it readable.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:51 am

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Seriously. I'm reminded of how people were ripping on Border Down before it came out. Where are those who criticized it? Where is your poison, oh hypocrites?

Oh, and don't get me started about Trizeal. "Bland" was the first word used to describe it. Sure, it's not revolutionary, but I want to see proof that it sucks.

Cthulhu · Post by **Cthulhu** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:52 am

What I learned from the forums today, by Cthulhu:

Many shmup fans like shmups, but many seem to hate them too. I don't understand why. Why do people who like games hate them? People are scary.

People also judge books by their cover. Even when their cover is a small picture of an incomplete game, people judge it. I don't understand why. People are scary.

People also don't like paying. But mommy and daddy said that stealing is bad. If it's bad, why do people do it? People are scary.

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:56 am

8 1/2 wrote:In my best Yoda, "Lucky we are. Much shmups I sense in this year."

*Yoda hits R2 with his cane, fighting over a copy of PS2 Mushihime*

Seriously though, it is a time for shmup fans at least in the large amount and variety we are getting. Regardless of what you think of Raiden III's new graphic overhaul, the videos show a very fast paced, intense game with bullet spreads that are faster yet still nicely mimic the bullet spreads of the old games (watch the video of a later stage where tanks with rotating cannons moving and spraying shots all over the screen, nice

)

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:03 am

I need to clarify a point.

Heavy Metal is a dead music genre even though many people listen to that kind of music and even though many bands write new songs every day.

Classical music is a dead genre, see above.

In that sense, shmups are also a dead genre.

The genre has evolved as much as it ever will and all we are doing now is playing the same game over and over again with slight (oh so slight) changes.

If you think the changes between one shmup and the next are not slight then Congratulations! You are a worthy shmups.com forum addict.

Why don't you try hard?

ROBOTRON · Post by **ROBOTRON** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:13 am

Hmmm....there must be more than one definition of "dead".

How can a genre be dead if they still make games...even if its only a limited number in any given year?

How can a genre be dead if its alive and kicking in certain areas of the world, like Japan for instance?

How can a genre be dead if sites like this one and others like it are busy as hell?

Some of you must be talking about another kind of "dead".

Chaos Field and Trizeal may have been low budget shmups, but R-Type Final and Gradius 5 certainly were not.

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:22 am

Also, Aphex, I don't understand why you are so worked up about Raiden III. Sure, I'd rather it be in sprites. Calling it "nothing less than an insult" and just a farmed out IP product tho seems a little harsh. The fact it has the same director as the old tried 'n true vanilla series is at least a little comforting, right? If it had zero Seibu staff working on it I would agree and would be worried. So far videos of the game show a really robust game with fast yet simple enemy gunplay that doesn't mimic modern manic shooters.

Also, the fact that years ago we were posting about how amazing it'd be if Raizing and Cave teamed up and now that has come true in a quasi sense, if anything that is a sign things are evolving a bit, not DE-volving. Just my 2 cents though.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:24 am

sethsez wrote:
ROBOTRON wrote:No, the ultimate irony is someone becoming a member of a shmup fan site and then dissing the shmup genre.
There's a difference between insulting a genre, and insulting the modern state of a genre. From what I saw, he likes shmups. He just doesn't like where shmups have been going lately. Being a fan doesn't mean blindly loving everything that comes out.

He's not "insulting the modern state of the genre", he's insulting shmups which he's never even PLAYED before-except for a cell-phone port of Xyanide, (unless he lives in the Netherlands and works for Playlogic; there's NO WAY he's played the XBOX port)-and that haven't even come OUT yet. That's absurdity; can we not even WAIT until a shmup comes out and we've played it before we declare it to be crap?!

And even if he doesn't like the modern state of the genre, so what? Then he should quit griping, go get a Genesis and an SNES and stock up on older shmups.

TVG · Post by **TVG** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:31 am

Specineff wrote:I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Seriously. I'm reminded of how people were ripping on Border Down before it came out. Where are those who criticized it? Where is your poison, oh hypocrites?

Oh, and don't get me started about Trizeal. "Bland" was the first word used to describe it. Sure, it's not revolutionary, but I want to see proof that it sucks.

were you reffering to me?

anyway, id like to say "trizeal sucks" but since i only played it once i wouldnt have credibillity.
deep inside i know it sucks tho, the time i played it bored me to death. and there's nothing about it that stands out, apart from ripoffs/hommages of/to 400 games, that, and it looks terrible.
mind you, im not getting it just to see how much it sucks.

and "hypocrites"? lol? these are games, predicting if they're going to suck or not is like like betting on a horse, you can never know for sure no matter how much info you have. it's fun to see if you were right or wrong, and as far as im concerned, i was right on trizeal *goes back to play raiden 2 and daioh*

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:35 am

No, I was not referring to you. I said it because I do find the lack of faith displayed in this thread disturbing, indeed.

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:43 am

Oof. I bite my tongue on Raiden 3. I just read Gregs impressions in the Raiden III PS2 thread.

You can't lock on with the toothpaste gun? gahhhh

SAM · Post by **SAM** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:45 am

The vagrant wrote:
sethsez wrote:
ROBOTRON wrote:No, the ultimate irony is someone becoming a member of a shmup fan site and then dissing the shmup genre.
There's a difference between insulting a genre, and insulting the modern state of a genre. From what I saw, he likes shmups. He just doesn't like where shmups have been going lately. Being a fan doesn't mean blindly loving everything that comes out.
there's a difference between not having high hopes for an upcoming game, and talking out of his ass to make every upcoming game seem bad.

he even said "plays and looks bad" about a game no one has played for fucks sake, what is that guy, an idiot?

i know what you're trying to say sethsez, but using his words to prove your point isnt a bright idea.

This is what I called "Good Old Days" symptom, people have this symptom just keep saying that now a days games is not as good as those old classic used to be and the genru is dieing etc.

The truth is Real Classic up to the quality of Space Invader, DoDonPachi and Radiant Silvergun would not be released every month. In fact we would be very luckly if there is one shmup close to this quality being released in a whole year.

Claiming that the quality of new shmup are not as good as the "Good Old Days", is like saying Type II MTG deck is not as powerful as Type I MTG deck because cards in new MTG edtions are not as powerful as the old MTG edtions. The fact is Type I MTG deck is so powful because it got a very big card library for building the deck. In other words, Force of Will is powerful, but if you are only allowed to build deck using Ice Age and Alliance only, the final product would only be as powerful as any Type II deck at most.

Shmup is not dying, just it is not the mainstream anymore. Puzzle games like Tetris, Puyo Puyo is not in the mainstream for years, but new Puzzle games are still being seen. Remake of Tetris & Puyo Puyo is releasing every year. This means as long as there are people playing games of that genru, that genru would not die and new games of that genru would keep coming.

My comments ....

[kid aphex]
THE VAGRANT
SAM

La Petite Princesse
[Non-traditional ... non-interesting. Got the roms.]
WHAT AN AWESOME REASON, "GOT THE ROMS" WHY BUY NEW GAMES WHEN WE CANT EVEN FINISH THE 10000 ROMS THAT WE DOWNLOADED, RIGHT?
ANYWAY I DONT REALLY CARE ABOUT TSS CAUSE I DONT HAVE ANYONE TO PLAY IT WITH, SO MEH.
?!?! How come you got the ROM? This is an new not yet released PS2 exclusive game, how can you have its ROM, are you a hacker
?

Raiden III (PS2)
[Nothing less than in insult]
BASED ON WHAT? SERIOUSLY, ABOUT 2 PERSONS ON THIS FORUM PLAYED IT AND SOME PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IT LIKE ITS THE PLAGUE, SERIOUSLY, IF YOU CANT UNDERSTAND WHY SOME DEVELOPPERS CANT AFFORD TO PRODUCT A GOOD LOOKING SPRITE BASED GAME, YOU REALLY SHOULDNT TALK.
I have tried this game in the arcade, it is graphic is betiful. The game is the opposite of Cave: Few Bullets, Bullets speed is relatively very fast compare with the speed of the player ship. I cannot handle this game, just not my cup of tea.

Senko no Ronde (semi-shmup, DC)
[Sigh]
ONOS, AN INNOVATIVE GAME, DAMMIT.
Played it in the arcade yesterday, feel like a 2D Virtual On to me. Still not understand the control and the game system.

shmups.system11.org

So much for the "dead genre" line...

Re: So much for the "dead genre" line...