So much for the "dead genre" line...

[Cthulhu]

For people constantly blurting out something like "shmups are a dead genre" (or at least calling it a "dying" genre), we sure seem to be up to our heels in new releases. I myself stated (about ... two years ago maybe?) that I thought profesionally developed shmups would fade away even more and be replaced by more doujin games. But I was wrong. Dead wrong. All the nay-sayers were.

There are -at least- the following games coming out (many entries cut and pasted from "what upcoming game are you looking forward to" thread):

Mushihimesama (PS2)
Sigma Star Saga (GBA)
Nanostray (DS)
La Petite Princesse (PS2)
Chaos Field (GC US release)
Xexex (PS2)
(three or four other old games being released along with Xexex)
Raiden III (PS2)
Xyanide (XBOX)
Sengoku Cannon (PSP)
Shikigami no Shiro 3 (AC)
Senko no Ronde (semi-shmup, DC)
Ibara (AC - should be out, but I haven't seen it yet)
Homura (AC)
Under Defeat (AC)
Rajirugi / Radilgy (AC)
Capcom game compilation (PS2)
Taito compilation 1 (PS2)
Taito compilation 2 (PS2)
Shikigami no Shiro adventure/shmup (PS2)

Also, now that Mushihime has had a fairly successful arcade run for a while and has a home port scheduled, we can expect at least one more game from Cave (above Mushipoko-sama, which is a puzzle game)...


What the hell?!? Dead genre my ass! That's more than 20 (!) games and most of them will be out this year! Even if you take out the re-releases of classic games, there's over a dozen new shmups due out too.

There's so many shmups coming out that we might need to be picky again even. Does this mean we're mainstream again or something?

[sethsez]

STOP RAINING ON MY PITY PARTY

[Thunder Force]

Shmups are just like the Dreamcast; presumed dead, accidentally buried, now burst out of their coffins pissed off and more powerful than ever... to be worshipped by underground fanatic cults worldwide who await the coming of the mainstream gaming apocalypse

[kid aphex]

I dont mean to sound like an asshole --- but with that list? The genre might as well be dead.

I'm sorry, but what's anyone to be excited about? Remakes? Republished shit? Bland, might-as-well-be-fan-made horseshit? Sequels that don't stand a CHANCE of living up to their name?

Honestly. There's no innovation, no risks, no creativity --- nothing. Besides Mushi, Under Defeat is the only game to look like it's actually had some TIME SPENT ON IT by its developers who actually care about putting out a FINISHED final product.

Shooters aren't dead yet ... but with this steady stream of under-developed and uncreative garbage bruising the genre, it doesn't have much longer.

Here's hoping for some innovative, inspired, and FULLY DEVELOPED ideas in the coming years.

[Cthulhu]

I dont mean to sound like an asshole --- but with that list? The genre might as well be dead.

I'm sorry, but what's anyone to be excited about? Remakes? Republished shit? Bland, might-as-well-be-fan-made horseshit? Sequels that don't stand a CHANCE of living up to their name?

Honestly. There's no innovation, no risks, no creativity --- nothing. Besides Mushi, Under Defeat is the only game to look like it's actually had some TIME SPENT ON IT by its developers who actually care about putting out a FINISHED final product.

Shooters aren't dead yet ... but with this steady stream of under-developed and uncreative garbage bruising the genre, it doesn't have much longer.

Here's hoping for some innovative, inspired, and FULLY DEVELOPED ideas in the coming years.

Shmups are, and always have been, a genre full of sequels and remakes. Many of (in fact, a good portion of) the very best games in the genre are parts of long-running series. Also, dismissing fan-made games is a poor choice as well. Have you played any of the Shanghai Alice games? How about Air Rade? Gundemonium?

As far as the quality of the games, I'll admit that there are a few coming out that look questionable - but I have no idea how you even try to come away with picking only two games.

[kid aphex]

Shmups are, and always have been, a genre full of sequels and remakes. Many of (in fact, a good portion of) the very best games in the genre are parts of long-running series. Also, dismissing fan-made games is a poor choice as well. Have you played any of the Shanghai Alice games? How about Air Rade? Gundemonium?

As far as the quality of the games, I'll admit that there are a few coming out that look questionable - but I have no idea how you even try to come away with picking only two games.

I never said there was anything wrong with sequels in and of themselves. Bland, uninspired sequels? Those I have problems with.

Welcome to 2005, when IP's get bought out by up-and-coming, talentless Japanese firms looking to cash in on a familiar face. Cough, Moss, cough.

How'd I come away picking only two games? Pretty easy. I just stepped out of the hype-box, dropped the blind love and dedication to the genre, and got real.

[kid aphex]

Let me be a bit more specific ...

Mushihimesama [Excited about it]
Sigma Star Saga [A cartoony, mixed genre mess]
Nanostray (DS) [Looks playable ... like Iridion 2 was 2 years ago]
La Petite Princesse [Non-traditional ... non-interesting. Got the roms.]
Chaos Field [Synonym in the dictionary for "Incomplete, Unfinished, Lacking"]
Xexex (PS2) [Thanks for THAT price and cool packaging. I'll stick to Mame]
Raiden III (PS2) [Nothing less than in insult]
Xyanide (XBOX) [Horrible. Played it. Not a shmup.]
Sengoku Cannon (PSP) [Never liked the series ... besides that, uninspired]
Shikigami no Shiro 3 (AC) [Could be interesting, at least they keep production/development up on the Shiki games.]
Senko no Ronde (semi-shmup, DC) [Sigh]
Ibara (AC ) [Looks great ---- next year.]
Homura (AC) [HOLY BLAND]
Under Defeat (AC) [Looks amazing. I guess this is where G.Rev directed most of their talent over the past year...]
Rajirugi / Radilgy (AC) [Newgrounds games have played/looked better]
Capcom game compilation (PS2) [roms on my xbox]
Taito compilation 1 (PS2) [roms on my xbox]
Taito compilation 2 (PS2) [roms on my xbox]
Shikigami no Shiro adventure/shmup (PS2) [more mish mashed bs]

[Ghegs]

Oh, the ignorance.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

Meh, mostly dead imo. All manic verts and not a horzie in the horizon. Plus, not everybody lives in Japan and have JPS2's.

Edit: well, Sengoku Cannon and Sigma Star Saga, but they look so unappealing they went under the radar. Manic verts get all the love these days.

[Blade]

Yet another reason why living in the United States SUCKS!

[D]

innovation

Shmups are not about innovation. Looking for innovation you are in the wrong dimension (forum)

What game anyhow can you call innovativ?

The last innovation was years ago, the 3D glasses & light gun.

Seriously what game do you consider innovation?

Space Harrier
Street Fighter 2.
Ridge Racer

[Dandy J]

Raiden III (PS2) [Nothing less than in insult]
Homura (AC) [HOLY BLAND]
Under Defeat (AC) [Looks amazing. I guess this is where G.Rev directed most of their talent over the past year...]
Rajirugi / Radilgy (AC) [Newgrounds games have played/looked better]

You've gotta be kidding me...

[kid aphex]

The innovation within the genre I'm looking for doesn't necessarily require a retooling of the basic shmup controls, or extra peripherals. Some new ideas, though, would be appreciated.

Some innovative graphical styles, or presentation methods. Interesting gameplay mechanics that don't resort to meshing two unrelated and conflicting genres, etc. It's not too much to ask for.

[kid aphex]

Raiden III (PS2) [Nothing less than in insult]
Homura (AC) [HOLY BLAND]
Under Defeat (AC) [Looks amazing. I guess this is where G.Rev directed most of their talent over the past year...]
Rajirugi / Radilgy (AC) [Newgrounds games have played/looked better]

You've gotta be kidding me...

Why? Do you think Raiden 3 looks impressive? Do you think it APPEARS to play impressively? Do you think it did the series justice? Do you think it's a proper successor? If you answer yes ... you gotta be kidding ME.

What exactly impresses you about the aformentioned games? What strikes you as interesting or impressive or even PASSABLE about said games?

[Zach Keene]

Meh, mostly dead imo. All manic verts and not a horzie in the horizon.

Xexex?

[Dandy J]

What exactly impresses you about the aformentioned games? What strikes you as interesting or impressive or even PASSABLE about said games?

Hmm I saw the Raiden III preview video and it looked fantastic. What is so bland about Homura? Looks tight to me, from what I've seen it looks more exciting than Under Defeat. Not to bring down UD though, I'm sure it'll be good too. I just think it's silly to harhsly critisize and draw conclusions on all these games when they aren't even released in arcades yet.

[Ataru]

the sign that a genre is alive and well is that a whole lot of crap is published alongside a few awesome titles.

[SAM]

For people constantly blurting out something like "shmups are a dead genre" (or at least calling it a "dying" genre), we sure seem to be up to our heels in new releases. I myself stated (about ... two years ago maybe?) that I thought profesionally developed shmups would fade away even more and be replaced by more doujin games. But I was wrong. Dead wrong. All the nay-sayers were.

There are -at least- the following games coming out (many entries cut and pasted from "what upcoming game are you looking forward to" thread):

Mushihimesama (PS2)
Sigma Star Saga (GBA)
Nanostray (DS)
La Petite Princesse (PS2)
Chaos Field (GC US release)
Xexex (PS2)
(three or four other old games being released along with Xexex)
Raiden III (PS2)
Xyanide (XBOX)
Sengoku Cannon (PSP)
Shikigami no Shiro 3 (AC)
Senko no Ronde (semi-shmup, DC)
Ibara (AC - should be out, but I haven't seen it yet)
Homura (AC)
Under Defeat (AC)
Rajirugi / Radilgy (AC)
Capcom game compilation (PS2)
Taito compilation 1 (PS2)
Taito compilation 2 (PS2)
Shikigami no Shiro adventure/shmup (PS2)

Also, now that Mushihime has had a fairly successful arcade run for a while and has a home port scheduled, we can expect at least one more game from Cave (above Mushipoko-sama, which is a puzzle game)...


What the hell?!? Dead genre my ass! That's more than 20 (!) games and most of them will be out this year! Even if you take out the re-releases of classic games, there's over a dozen new shmups due out too.

There's so many shmups coming out that we might need to be picky again even. Does this mean we're mainstream again or something?

Don't take me wrong. I am as excited as you all when hearing a new shmup is coming.

I think the current trend is the shmup genre is slowing disappearing in the arcade, but the loss in new arcade titles woluld be make up by increase in new console and PC releases. I have explaned my theroy somewhere in this board, I just quote it here.

By the way, I have a chance to play a game of "Senko no Ronde (semi-shmup)" at the arcade. It really don't feel like a shmup at all. It more like a Virtual On in 2D, I still cann't figure out the all the control and game system. And the arcade treat at as a fighting game and put the meachine at the fighting game corner side by side with KOF...

My theory is...

In my opinion, perfect console port & PC emulation is slowly killing the shmup genru in the arcade. Yes, they do keep the old classic alive, but in recently years more and more modern STG games have been release on home console or being emulated.

This is due to the following facts...

(1) Computer hardware is relatively cheaper these days

These allow more people to own powerful PC, which have to processing power to do real good emulation on the latest arcade games. There also allow Sony/Nintendo/Sega/Microsoft to release increasingly powerful consoles.

(2) The game carrying media is much cheaper nowadays

Any one remembers the days when CD-Rom is not a common media for carrying games?

At that time Arcade perfect is only a dream, hardware limitation is not the only issue, the cost for capacity for the ROM to carry the game is also major issue.

Any one recalls that R-Type was tool big to be put on a Hub card that it has been released on two separate Hub cards, one for stage 1-4 and the other for stage 5 to 8. You have to enter password to carry fore your score, power ups to part II of the game.

Once SNK had decide to release Neo-Geo home console with arcade perfect cart, do anyone remember how much a cart cost? Check it out on eBay if you don't.

(3) Modern home consoles are much closer in processing power with their arcade counterpart

- In the old days home consoles are inferior in processing power than their arcade counterpart. These gap becomes smaller and smaller as computer hardware becomes cheaper. Modern home console are quite close in power as their arcade counterpart. (DC is just a Naomi less 4M Video Ram)

- Arcade Owners tends to invest in games that people cannot play at home for their arcade. They want games that play different in the arcade, for example driving, rhyme, muti-players Vs, Rail shooter (those you holding a light gun). And thus they put less STGs in the arcade.

(4) Hardware requirement for STGs is usually lower than video games of other genru

- As arcade owners bought less STG PBC/GD-ROM etc., the game developers have to found more ways to make money with the STGs they have developed.

- Lucky the hardware requirement for a STG is usually not very high. Modern console capable to handle 3D arcade games is more than enough to act as a platform for most STGs available. Therefore, many of them port the STGs to home console, a few years after the arcade version release. But this action may have a -ve effect of making the arcade owners reconsider in investing new STGs.

- Some game developers even decide to forget about an arcade release and develop a home console title well at the beginning. e.g. "Gradius V" & "R-Type Final".

STGs are being seen less and less in arcade. Even stopping PC Emulation on STGs won't stop this trend.

But don't worry, game develops would continues to write new STGs, as there are still people (or cats) like us who likes to play STGs.

[Cthulhu]

In my opinion, perfect console port & PC emulation is slowly killing the shmup genru in the arcade

You've got good reasons, and yes, those all contribute to arcades being regulated to a niche-type market, but there are a lot of shmups in development for the arcade right now. More than there have been in a while, in fact. That means that, despite the fact that the Xbox is more powerful than the Naomi 2 by a good measure and the next gen of systems is right around the corner, they're still making new arcade shmups. Enthusiasm is beating out rational thought, it seems.

[the2bears]

Let me be a bit more specific ...

...
Xyanide (XBOX) [Horrible. Played it. Not a shmup.]
...

Note: I'm assuming that kid aphex has "added" to Cthulthu's original quote... so this is for kid aphex.

You played it? Give us some more details please. It's more of a rail-shooter from what I've seen. Where did you play it?

Bill

[8 1/2]

In my best Yoda, "Lucky we are. Much shmups I sense in this year."

[kid aphex]

Let me be a bit more specific ...

...
Xyanide (XBOX) [Horrible. Played it. Not a shmup.]
...

Note: I'm assuming that kid aphex has "added" to Cthulthu's original quote... so this is for kid aphex.

You played it? Give us some more details please. It's more of a rail-shooter from what I've seen. Where did you play it?

Bill

The controls reminded me a lot of SmashTV, with one joystick moving the ship around, the other firing in the direction you press. It's always 2D, as far as the perspective goes [or lack thereof...]

The problem was that ships would move in and out of the plane of firing ... and without any visual cue. Your shots just wouldn't be hitting them all of a sudden. On top of that, the games camera tries to be really dramatic, and takes your ship through a dizzying array of backgrounds that spin and move and zoom by you ... all real time 3D. Here's where another problem comes in: sometimes you need to be shooting at ships that seem to be in the background --- but they're impossible to differentiate from what's real background.

The whole thing was just a frustrating experience. One of the worst, actually. But the CG is amazingly atmospheric and original.

[SheSaidDutch]

I'm glad there's quite afew shumps being released and some quailty ones at that although...none of them interest me inthe slightest but "GAME ON"

[dave4shmups]

Let me be a bit more specific ...

Note: I'm assuming that kid aphex has "added" to Cthulthu's original quote... so this is for kid aphex.

You played it? Give us some more details please. It's more of a rail-shooter from what I've seen. Where did you play it?

Bill

The controls reminded me a lot of SmashTV, with one joystick moving the ship around, the other firing in the direction you press. It's always 2D, as far as the perspective goes [or lack thereof...]

The problem was that ships would move in and out of the plane of firing ... and without any visual cue. Your shots just wouldn't be hitting them all of a sudden. On top of that, the games camera tries to be really dramatic, and takes your ship through a dizzying array of backgrounds that spin and move and zoom by you ... all real time 3D. Here's where another problem comes in: sometimes you need to be shooting at ships that seem to be in the background --- but they're impossible to differentiate from what's real background.

The whole thing was just a frustrating experience. One of the worst, actually. But the CG is amazingly atmospheric and original.

Yeah, but the game may not even be completely finished yet-if it was, it would've been released; the final product maybe a lot more polished.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

Meh, mostly dead imo. All manic verts and not a horzie in the horizon.

Xexex?

I pass.

[dave4shmups]

And what the heck is wrong with compilations?? They save people money, and a whole helluva lot of it, too.

[ROBOTRON]

I dont mean to sound like an asshole --- but with that list? The genre might as well be dead.

I'm sorry, but what's anyone to be excited about? Remakes? Republished shit? Bland, might-as-well-be-fan-made horseshit? Sequels that don't stand a CHANCE of living up to their name?

Honestly. There's no innovation, no risks, no creativity --- nothing. Besides Mushi, Under Defeat is the only game to look like it's actually had some TIME SPENT ON IT by its developers who actually care about putting out a FINISHED final product.

Shooters aren't dead yet ... but with this steady stream of under-developed and uncreative garbage bruising the genre, it doesn't have much longer.

No offense, but why are you here? Why would become a member of a shmup fan site and post something like that?

Anyway, shmups are not dead...hell, they practically invented the home and arcade maket. 99% of the first games for arcade and home console market were shmups (Demon attack, Galaxian, Space Invaders). The fact that shmups are still hitting the market proves that its not dead, it just needs new life breathed into it. Thats why games like Trizeal and Under Defeat are so important.

Games like Halo and Resident Mid-Evil are the ones that should be dying...I'm so sick and tired of games like that...there are about 50 billion of them on the market and they all play the same. How many times can you look at somebody getting their head blown off before you get sick of it? Thats why I consistantly go back to my shmup roots...thats where the fun is...the true replay value.

[Ghegs]

there are about 50 billion of them on the market and they all play the same. How many times can you look at somebody getting their head blown off before you get sick of it?

For fairness' sake, the same can be said about shmups, only replace "somebody getting their head blown off" with "a boss exploding".

[LoneSage]

As long as the fans are there, it will never be dead.

[dave4shmups]

there are about 50 billion of them on the market and they all play the same. How many times can you look at somebody getting their head blown off before you get sick of it?

For fairness' sake, the same can be said about shmups, only replace "somebody getting their head blown off" with "a boss exploding".

Exactly, and you need to check out Serious Sam. That game is more fun then quite a few shmups I've played.

But I agree with you about the past importance of shmups, and I don't think they're dying either. And no offense to the author of this thread, but I personally wouldn't criticize fan-made shmups unless I could come up with something better-I can't, so I don't.