Duality ZF (Xbox LIVE Indie Games) coming soon...

[Xonatron]

June 2011 Update:

New trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fipIqeqVjlY&hd=1

...

We have a lengthy DZF development discussion on these forums on but here's our first time bringing to the general chat area... let us know what you think.

Trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TkG6J2CWvU&hd=1

Screenshots:






Bonus screenshots:
If you are really interested in more screenshots, download our latest screenshot set from our promotional materials here: http://dualityzf.com/promo.html This is not material we typically broadcast to the gaming audience. The reason we have so many screenshots in the set is so that each news source does not use the same screenshots over and over (we make them pick the ones they like the best).

News: Duality ZF placed #7 in Dream Build Play 2009. Out of over 350 entries from over 100 countries, we placed 2nd in Canada and 7th in the world. The top 6 made it to the next level (we were one off) and were showcased at PAX 2009 where the fans picked the top 4 winners, with "Dust: An Elysian Tail" programmed and drawn by the amazing Dean Dodrill (Jazz Jackrabbit fans may remember his artwork), winning it all.

[Kaspal]

im sorry you guys didnt make it to the top 4 (there were some good prizes for them)... but im glad that you're gonna relese the game soon for the X360.

now, one question, are you planning on releasing it for the PC too?... im trying not to acquire things from XBL-CG because of the "be online to play" bullshit policy... i want to support you (i still have the promissed 400 MSPs), but with that policy on... i dont think so... not now anyway.

[Xonatron]

Kaspal, thanks... and I don't want to comment too much on our plans to release it for the PC, because the main concern is an Xbox 360 release (and even update for that release) before we consider a PC release. The PC release will come last of it all, if it comes at all. We want to do it as a test case scenario, and maybe distribute it via Steam if they accept us which I hope our Dream Build Play top 20 placement helps with. It would let us test the PC market. I'd love to know if the PC gamers like our style of "retro done better" games or not. So I will leave it as: we really want to bring Duality ZF to the PC, but there will certainly be no release dates planned and no guarantees it will ever happen.

And, as for the price, you may have some change on your 400pts... there is a chance Duality ZF will ship for 240pts... again this is all just rumor! Speaking of which:

EVERYONE: Please let me know what you think of the price point choices. We can choose 80/240/400 pts ($1/$3/$5 USD)... what do you think it's worth AND what do you think we should sell it at (two different answers potentially).

[Kaspal]

Kaspal, thanks... and I don't want to comment too much on our plans to release it for the PC, because the main concern is an Xbox 360 release (and even update for that release) before we consider a PC release. The PC release will come last of it all, if it comes at all. We want to do it as a test case scenario, and maybe distribute it via Steam if they accept us which I hope our Dream Build Play top 20 placement helps with. It would let us test the PC market. I'd love to know if the PC gamers like our style of "retro done better" games or not. So I will leave it as: we really want to bring Duality ZF to the PC, but there will certainly be no release dates planned and no guarantees it will ever happen.

And, as for the price, you may have some change on your 400pts... there is a chance Duality ZF will ship for 240pts... again this is all just rumor! Speaking of which:

EVERYONE: Please let me know what you think of the price point choices. We can choose 80/240/400 pts ($1/$3/$5 USD)... what do you think it's worth AND what do you think we should sell it at (two different answers potentially).

leave it at 400MPs man!... just leave it at that. i know how much effort has gone onto that game (you've been making it for more than a year now!), for you to come now and kinda give it away.

i havent played the game yet, but i know that if you happened to release it as a regular XBLA game, i'd gladly pay 800MPs for it. not for the achievements (i dont care about'em), but for the fact that i dont have to be online to play it.... and also, because i think it deserves it.

EDIT: now that i think about it, i could even give you the 5 bux for the XBL version, and an extra 5 bux for a Custom PC version ... but yeah, i know you dont have dates on it yet.... if at all.

[postman]

Hoped you guys would rank better in the contest.......can't believe you missed it by one!

Still looking great though and I'm still anxiously awaiting the release.....

[Xonatron]

postman, your "Don't just dodge bullets, dance around them." signature reminds me of a title name I was inspired by when playtesting Duality ZF... "Bullet Dancer". When you find yourself in the zone, it can become more of a spiritual experience (not in the religious sense) where you find yourself in total control with complete confidance in your abilities, and you truly dance around the bullets. So cool. Just wanted to share! We decided against the name as it could be misunderstood by a lot of gamers.

[TodayIsForgotten]

Leave it at 400. Otherwise don't go lower than 240.

[postman]

Ha, that's funny........at least you understand what I was getting at though......I agree most people probably wouldn't get that.......

PS - I only took you off my friends list because every 30 seconds it would notify me that you were online, and it was driving me crazy - I don't know if it's a creators club glitch or what, but it just got too annoying....

[emphatic]

Well, I guess I have to get myself a US Live! account for my Japanese 360 soon. I'm planning on playing this on a 4:3 CRT (hi res cabinet), will there be cinema style black bars on the top/bottom of the play area, or will there be some clever 4:3 setting (perhaps putting current score etc above the game screen)?

[Xonatron]

PS - I only took you off my friends list because every 30 seconds it would notify me that you were online, and it was driving me crazy - I don't know if it's a creators club glitch or what, but it just got too annoying....

Ouch! I had thought about that! I should disable the auto-login on "Windows Games Live", which is like Xbox LIVE for a PC and it's a part of Duality ZF's PC build that we do most of our testing on. It logs me in everytime I run even a debug build of my game. So as I test the game I run, quit, change code, repeat, over and over. So, apologies! You can re-add me if you wish (Xonatron) and I'll diasable the auto login to never bug you like this again (and remind me if I don't)!!!

[Xonatron]

Well, I guess I have to get myself a US Live! account for my Japanese 360 soon. I'm planning on playing this on a 4:3 CRT (hi res cabinet), will there be cinema style black bars on the top/bottom of the play area, or will there be some clever 4:3 setting (perhaps putting current score etc above the game screen)?

We had a clever 4:3 full screen mode, but disabled it in favor of the black bars (what are they called again?) because it unfortunately changed the difficulty (and therefore the scoring) of the game. More enemies are hidden off screen. Make them not shoot makes the game easier in 4:3. Make them shoot makes the game harder in 4:3 (as you can't see what 16:9 can see). We had to keep the game consistent to make sure the scores are fair. Too bad, but this is the balancing act we have had to do on a thousand things so far in this game. Making a game is truly an art of balancing the pros and cons with hopes you are right more often than not.

[Xonatron]

Leave it at 400. Otherwise don't go lower than 240.

Thanks. I'm not going to comment on our current plans (just yet) as it may affect future opinions here, and I really wish to hear them unbaised. Don't take our silence as insulting, we appreicate your input! We have put a lot of time into thinking about our prices and we'll dump some of our ideas and thoughts here later on!

[Kaspal]

Leave it at 400. Otherwise don't go lower than 240.

Thanks. I'm not going to comment on our current plans (just yet) as it may affect future opinions here, and I really wish to hear them unbaised. Don't take our silence as insulting, we appreicate your input! We have put a lot of time into thinking about our prices and we'll dump some of our ideas and thoughts here later on!

i'll be eagerly waiting for those.

[emphatic]

We had a clever 4:3 full screen mode, but disabled it in favor of the black bars (what are they called again?) because it unfortunately changed the difficulty (and therefore the scoring) of the game. More enemies are hidden off screen. Make them not shoot makes the game easier in 4:3. Make them shoot makes the game harder in 4:3 (as you can't see what 16:9 can see). We had to keep the game consistent to make sure the scores are fair. Too bad, but this is the balancing act we have had to do on a thousand things so far in this game. Making a game is truly an art of balancing the pros and cons with hopes you are right more often than not.

I totally understand. I can of course run the game in 16:9 mode and just stretch the picture to 4:3 on my arcade monitor and see how that looks though. If it looks like this that way, I can totally live with it:



You could have a 4:3 mode that just resizes the sprites, as the background won't look too weird this way.

[Xonatron]

I hope some of you guys like capturing your gameplay and posting to youtube... I am going to love seeing your performances.

[brokenhalo]

this looks fantastic. i'd definitly pay $5 for it.

[No_not_like_Quake]

I haven't been posting much here lately (nothing to say) but I'd like to take the time to say I support you and will buy DZF for 400 msp.

Actually, I've been checking for this game to see if it was available on IGs since June or so.

Hopefully, it will inspire others to make shooters that don't suck for the service.

[Xonatron]

You could have a 4:3 mode that just resizes the sprites, as the background won't look too weird this way.

Even this would change the game (and potentially the difficulty) at some points. What if you were able to kill a boss easier with the resized sprites because you had more room to move around? Do you see what I mean? We have to be fair to all the players. It's honestly too bad that we had to reject our 4:3 mode that we coded in (many games don't bother with such details) only to be fair to the gamers. But we place a high importance on fairness and the online scoreboards, so utlimately it was an "easy" cut, but it still hurt to do it.

[Xonatron]

Hopefully, it will inspire others to make shooters that don't suck for the service.

Wouldn't that be great? I wish someone was making *us* a DZF!!! What it would feel like to sit down and play this game not knowing anythign about it... I can only dream! Thank you for your support, NNLQ.

[antron]

We had a clever 4:3 full screen mode, but disabled it in favor of the black bars (what are they called again?) because it unfortunately changed the difficulty (and therefore the scoring) of the game.

black bars on top/bottom for 4:3?

also, can this game be played with just the D-pad + buttons?

[brentsg]

EVERYONE: Please let me know what you think of the price point choices. We can choose 80/240/400 pts ($1/$3/$5 USD)... what do you think it's worth AND what do you think we should sell it at (two different answers potentially).

I think you'll get skewed responses to this question here. From watching the video it's easily worth my 400 points, but I'm a fan of the genre. The really tricky thing is to figure out at what price point a non-shmup fan will pay to play it.

[emphatic]

Even this would change the game (and potentially the difficulty) at some points. What if you were able to kill a boss easier with the resized sprites because you had more room to move around? Do you see what I mean? We have to be fair to all the players. It's honestly too bad that we had to reject our 4:3 mode that we coded in (many games don't bother with such details) only to be fair to the gamers. But we place a high importance on fairness and the online scoreboards, so utlimately it was an "easy" cut, but it still hurt to do it.

So, this means that the entire sprite is the hit box then?

[TodayIsForgotten]

EVERYONE: Please let me know what you think of the price point choices. We can choose 80/240/400 pts ($1/$3/$5 USD)... what do you think it's worth AND what do you think we should sell it at (two different answers potentially).

I think you'll get skewed responses to this question here. From watching the video it's easily worth my 400 points, but I'm a fan of the genre. The really tricky thing is to figure out at what price point a non-shmup fan will pay to play it.

I don't think it will be too much of a deal. Biology Battle which is the cream of the crop as far as arena shooters on Indie Games was at 800 and i'm almost certain it did well. Its now at 240. Comparing Duality to Biology Battle would make BB seem like an 80 pt game. As far as love and depth of gameplay. I think the 5 dollar price point is almost perfect for all audiences. Although, being that its indie games and not XBLA, this could then contradict what i said and have people in an uproar.

I still think 5 bucks is perfect. You may get a few less sales from "would-be" customers, but how many people are going to bother playing a genre they don't like? There's no achievements! On the other hand, this may draw in more people since its not a bullet hell type game, while it has the modes and options... at first look I think it will lure in those who like the genre and maybe those who aren't so big on it. Could be a stepping stone.

[msm]

EVERYONE: Please let me know what you think of the price point choices. We can choose 80/240/400 pts ($1/$3/$5 USD)... what do you think it's worth AND what do you think we should sell it at (two different answers potentially).

I think you'll get skewed responses to this question here. From watching the video it's easily worth my 400 points, but I'm a fan of the genre. The really tricky thing is to figure out at what price point a non-shmup fan will pay to play it.

i agree with this, people on this forum (myself included) will be more easily swayed to buy a shmup for 400 points. but there are only a small number of shmup fans compared to the number of potential customers using the indie games service, and there's lots of competition for peoples points, so while i would pay 400 no problem, you might do better at 240 to get more sales, it's a difficult call to make though.

well done on the 7th place!

[Jason]

A few points:

- You can use either thumbstick or the d-pad to control the ship. Control is proportional with the thumbsticks, but optimized to the square, so you get max X and Y speed on the diagonals even with proportion control with thumbsticks that don't reach the corners (i.e. the official gamepads)

- Biology Battle didn't do so well. Their online scoreboards had a bug that repeated entries, so the 30,000+ people who supposedly bought the game is actually far less. However, they are competing directly against Geo Wars 2, so they have a tough battle. The main flaw in the game is control issues and lack of firepower (pretty much every indie shmup ever made has these flaws).

- Duality ZF is worth $5 to shmup fans. It's worth $10 easy if it had leaderboards and achievements. At least it will have our own online scoreboards that replicates leaderboards, and our own in-game challenges (on the 1st update; not on release) to mimic achievements. But it's not the same thing.

- Lots of people dislike shmups. The shmup fan base is small. To make it work, we either need a lot of $ from each of you, say $5, (since no one else will buy) or a lot of people (fans and not fans) buying it for dirt cheap, say $1.

- The price... At $1 how can you NOT buy it, since it's just $1. It's impulse. At $3, you can buy 3 games for that, so you may only buy it if you really like it. At $5, likely all shmup fans will still buy it, but being the most expensive indie game (you cannot sell for $10 anymore), it means you're the best of the best, and I'm not so sure even the BEST shmup can make that claim, especially with lack of online play.

- Geo Wars 2 showed the world that people like shmups. So, the fans ARE out there. To get them, we need to have something for everyone. I think we have a real shmup like Raiden, but with Survival and Multidirectional control, we also have the game that Geo Wars 2 fans like. So, I think the free trial will make both of these modes available. This should grab everyone's attention. That's the plan.

[Xonatron]

Even this would change the game (and potentially the difficulty) at some points. What if you were able to kill a boss easier with the resized sprites because you had more room to move around? Do you see what I mean? We have to be fair to all the players.

So, this means that the entire sprite is the hit box then?

No, the hit boxese are always in side the enemies to avoid silly collision deaths, but the hit box would have to change size if I squished the enemy sprites to accomodate the streching of the 4:3! Follow what I mean?!

[Jason]

The only way to handle 4:3 mode without ruining the online scoreboards (since 4:3 is a different sized screen, meaning enemies need to be closer to you before they are allowed to shoot), is to allow the game mechanics to function as though it were in 16:9. This means enemies that don't shoot off-screen to the left/right would actually shoot if they are off-screen in 4:3 mode. This will cause occasional annoyance deaths due to bullets hitting you that you didn't see be fired (especially in multi-player where you get near the edges more easily).

Is it worth getting people upset over such annoyance deaths to provide a full-screen view on 4:3?

[Observer]

Kaspal, thanks... and I don't want to comment too much on our plans to release it for the PC, because the main concern is an Xbox 360 release (and even update for that release) before we consider a PC release. The PC release will come last of it all, if it comes at all. We want to do it as a test case scenario, and maybe distribute it via Steam if they accept us which I hope our Dream Build Play top 20 placement helps with. It would let us test the PC market. I'd love to know if the PC gamers like our style of "retro done better" games or not. So I will leave it as: we really want to bring Duality ZF to the PC, but there will certainly be no release dates planned and no guarantees it will ever happen.

And, as for the price, you may have some change on your 400pts... there is a chance Duality ZF will ship for 240pts... again this is all just rumor! Speaking of which:

EVERYONE: Please let me know what you think of the price point choices. We can choose 80/240/400 pts ($1/$3/$5 USD)... what do you think it's worth AND what do you think we should sell it at (two different answers potentially).

Pick 400pts. Personally, it could be a little more (8 stages of non-stop shooting right? sometimes we pay way more for less than that), and that leads us to the PC version.

Simply put: release it for PC! DO IT. Steam, retail, don't care much. The comp needs love. I bought Söldner X, Steel Saviour, heck, even Protöthea and I'm mainly getting PC doujin shooters nowadays so I wouldn't mind some extra shootan action. I'm really liking the graphical style and the explosions.

Did you guys consider a small retail release with the OST and maybe a poster or something like DUX or, indeed, Söldner X? I don't think I would be the only one getting such a version. I'm an old dinosaur who prefers the games in disc and stuff but even if it's through Steam or other online service it'll be fine.

Good luck with the final release! Fingers crossed.

[dmauro]

Just chiming in on the price. We're the crowd that's gonna be willing to pay 400 ms points, and that's certainly a bargain price, but 240 points is usually about what I have sitting in my account as left over points and that's how you rope in people that enjoyed the demo, but not enough to go out of their way to add points.

[TodayIsForgotten]

I think you should still keep it at the 400. I don't think there are many indie games that sell more than a couple thousand units. I could be way off but judging by the forums there's only a handful of games that look like they may sell somewhat decent. There's prime examples of many games on the service that are priced at 240 and absolutely blow.

The thing we don't know is, how many more sales will you make selling it at 240? 5? 10? You figure at 400, you're going to get the hardcore shooter fans to make up for the more appealing 240. Of course this is speculation, but its also indie games. Not a huge success yet.

Another case is atomhex. That is a fricking great dual stick shooter for 80 points, yet no one has heard of it. Its clearly one of the top 3 arena shooters on the service. Duality already has a following and you really aren't going to force a non-shmup fan to suddenly buy a game because its priced at 240 points. I just don't see it happening.

The only downfall i see to 400 is there aren't many good 400 games on there. That is the only downfall of pricing it at 400. But again, who is the target audience? A few stragglers? Penny pinchers? or the devoted? Probably want somewhere in the middle. I think the game will sell itself. Judging by the interest in the general discussion on xbox.com and on here and on youtube I think rumors will spread and more people than not will wind up buying it.

It's still a tough decision. But, you always have the chance to reduce the price if its not selling well. That will bring people back who were reluctant. Win-win situation.