XRGB-3

[jandrogo]

Another great thing about the VGA port in the back. It can be used to attach a PC using Soft-15khz. Usually it's a real hassle since VGA displays don't do 15khz and Scart inputs don't do 31+khz. Using the back-side VGA input on the XRGB-3 allows to attach a PC running in a standard VGA res and then easily switch to 15khz without any problems. You don't even need an VGA-Scart adapter anymore since a standard VGA2VGA cable will do the job.

Fudoh have you tested this using a ArcadeVga or any other 15Khz software?

It would very nice to see pics of it and know if the 15Khz soft -> mame -> XRGB3 scanlines are significantly better over the mame emulated scanlines at 31Khz or higher resolutions.

[Fudoh]

It's basically on par with MAME's DirectDraw (!) Scanline emulation which means much better than it's Direct3D Scanline overlay function. What spoiled the fun for me was that you the need the right emulators with the right settings. A few years back this was easier, but now that most if not all emulators rely on Direct3D in some way or another, it has become more difficult to set up. If you have a dedicated PC just for old-school EMUs it's the way to go, but the fiddling with different resolutions (in case you want to run anything else) can become very annoying.

With MAME it's a bit of trial and error because of the hundreds of different resolutions supported. If you ever wondered why the UI-based versions of MAME give you the possibility to list the games by their resolution, now you know why.

The combination of native output + XRGB scanlines + scaling by the TV gives the EMUs a very nice CRT'ish look which you usually can't achieve with MAME or any other emulator (maybe except for ZSNES with Blargg's NTSC/RGB library included).

[CrackLtd]

Hi folks, after a while its me again, sadly i have a problem with my NeoGeo MVS in conjunction with the XRGB3. While my other consoles seem to work fine the NeoGeo has some Syncfailure in the top of the picture. I have taken a picture, please click it to see it full size.
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/1424/cimg7193.jpg
What you can see is the selftest of the NeoGeo MVS where it outputs a testing picture. The first two lines of squares on top of the picture seems to be out of sync in some way. I have tweaked around with the settings but it doesnt seem i can get rid of that. B0/B1, Scartinput or any of the other inoputs, all tested, still same failure. Any hints what i can do? (if that problem have been reported and solved yet, sorry for asking again, point me there then, thanks!)

[Artemio]

it is corrected with the AFC setting. On my mine I have to set it at 3 or 4.

You can check out Fudoh's guide, it covers this issue and tons more, highly recommended.

[CrackLtd]

Stupid me! Of course i read Fudoh's Site _several_ times, but its so much info most probably that overdose must made me blind, lol. That AFC tweak completly solved the issue. Thanks!

[Chacranajxy]

Okay, so I'm thinking about getting an XRGB-3 since I'm going to need one for my Supergun eventually, and I want to play old shit (particularly Saturn) with SCART, since S-video just isn't as pretty as it should be. A couple questions though:

If I were to plug my PS2 into this thing and just use the lag-free mode, would the video quality improve somehow? Dramatically? I've currently got my PS2 hooked up with component cables and it looks good, but I feel like there could still be more clarity... thus, my question.

Also, there shouldn't be any issues with getting PCBs to display correctly with this thing, right?

[Artemio]

Fudoh will be teh one to give you afull reply, but in the few months I¿'ve used mine here's what I know:

Regarding PCBs, some might not display correctly on the XRGB-3, depends on which ones you are aiming for. I also have a SuperGUN and an XRGB-2 and 3, the 2 is rock solid with all my PCBs and is what I use by default. I have CPS-2, System-16 and Neo Geo MVS. The only one I have that doens't display at all with the XRGB-2 is a (probably bootleg) Dragon Ninja. It must be said that the only way I can display that one is using the XRB-3 on B0 (lag mode).

Yes, the Saturn will look way better using RGB, tested that.

And regarding the PS2, it won't do marvels but it might look a bit cleaner than component. You'll have to change the setting on the console though. One thing that you won't get though is scanlines, since the resolution in most games is not the same as with older consoles. But I thin that lag would be the biggest thing you'd get rid of using this setup. I haven't played much PS2 since I got these things though, so I cannot really answer this one.

[Chacranajxy]

Okay, well to clarify, the arcade stuff I'm looking to play with the XRGB 3 is CPS1, CPS2, Neo Geo MVS, and some Cave shmups. That's really about it.

Also, I'm not really concerned with scanlines at all, so that won't be an issue for me.

[Artemio]

I must not have typed "don't display correctly", bad choice of words. They do play fine though the XRRB-3, and I've also tested CPS-1. The only thing that I can complain about when using the XRGB-3 with them is a bit of "waviness" in the picture (maybe sync is not as stable). I must admit that I didn't complain much about it once gameplay started, I only noticed it more when I compared it to the XRGB-2. It is also true that it might depend on how your TV syncs with the XRGB-3. I am using VGA to a Samsung LN46A950.

I believe that in any case you'll love the results, there is no other way to enjoy these games as much.

[Chacranajxy]

hmmm... is there any way to fix the waviness then?

Maybe I should piece through the thread some more...

[Fudoh]

With the number of different arcade platforms and your lack of interest in scanline emulation it might be wiser to buy a XRGB-2 (even a non plus). As pointed out it's rock-solid with all PCBs thrown at it, it works great with Saturn and low-res PS2 look ace as well (using a RGB cable). It's also much easier to use than a XRGB-3.

I'm not a fan of the deinterlacing and scaling of the XRGB-3 in B0 mode, so basically I use the XRGB-3 only in XRGB-2plus mode with the added capability to fine-tune the picture a bit more and to pass through 480p PS2 games. The "plus" of the 2+ compared to the 2 is the added component input (concers none of your systems), the remote control and the 4 density settings for scanline emulation.

With your focus on arcade hardware plus Saturn plus PS2 (probably more 2D games than 3D), I'd recommend getting a XRGB-2 and a Scart switch to handle your multiple inputs. As Artemio said the compatibilty with your display could be a (little) issue. Some LCDs tend to give a less stable picture with a XRGB-2(+) than with a XRGB-3, but on the other hand there are people who can't get their MVS to work on a XRGB-3. Pick your poison!

[Chacranajxy]

Hmm... well, I guess the question to ask is, how broad is the compatibility with the XRGB-3? In case it matters, the monitor I want to use it on is the Asus VH236H, coz that's the monitor they use at Evo because it performs perfectly with timing-sensitve games...

The sync thing has me kinda worried, honestly.

[brentsg]

With your focus on arcade hardware plus Saturn plus PS2 (probably more 2D games than 3D), I'd recommend getting a XRGB-2 and a Scart switch to handle your multiple inputs. As Artemio said the compatibilty with your display could be a (little) issue. Some LCDs tend to give a less stable picture with a XRGB-2(+) than with a XRGB-3, but on the other hand there are people who can't get their MVS to work on a XRGB-3. Pick your poison!

I've got an XRGB2 and 2+ that have been gathering dust the last couple of years, and I'm about to break them out again. Not to derail the thread, but is there a list of what LCDs work well for PCB and/or console use (Saturn/PS2)? I'd like to get something I can mount for TATE purposes but would hate to end up with something that is "less stable".

Thanks

[Fudoh]

There are a few nice LCDs with near-zero-lag. Depends on what you want to spend on it. In my opinion the cheaper TN displays are terrible for tating since the left side of the picture will visibly differently colored than the right side once tated.

The define the "stable / less stable" picture issue, have a look at this: http://pms.hazard-city.de/240p_edge.avi (watch the left side of the large orange "6")

It's not a XRGB, so the quality's different anyway, but it shows the wobbling effect on the vertical axis the XRGB2 and 2+ show on many displays.

[Chacranajxy]

hmmm.... that didn't look like anything too unacceptable... I guess I was sorta thinking this was going to be like having the whole image wobbling from time to time, or that there'd be some phantom line that goes through and makes everything look wobbly...

[Fudoh]

right, nothing too overestimate. There are tons of people who are happy with their XRGB2/2+ units. For me it was fine on my 21" LCDs, starting to get annoying on a 32" LCD and was unacceptable on my 52" LCD. The XRGB-3 fixed this for me, so it was reason enough for me to choose the newer machine.

[Chacranajxy]

right, nothing too overestimate. There are tons of people who are happy with their XRGB2/2+ units. For me it was fine on my 21" LCDs, starting to get annoying on a 32" LCD and was unacceptable on my 52" LCD. The XRGB-3 fixed this for me, so it was reason enough for me to choose the newer machine.

I've got a 42" plasma that I'll probably hook this up to part of the time, too... that's probably something I should've mentioned... being able to upscale stuff that's not timing sensitive would be nice for when I do that. But honestly, I think the primary reason I'll go with the XRGB 3 is because I can actually get a hold of the thing.

Side note: Something I've noticed is that getting into arcade stuff and more old school stuff has made me a lot more... uhm... international, I guess. I'm checking conversion rates with the dollar, euro, yen, and pounds pretty regularly (and constantly find myself saddened by the dollar), and I'm gonna be using SCART and d-terminal... that's kinda neat... uhm... sorta.

[Artemio]

Hey guys. Just wanted to clear up something regarding the waviness/unstable sync issue.

As you might recall I claimed that the XRB-2 was rock solid when compared to the XRGB-3, here's a video of what I was getting through the XRGB-3 when using CPS-2. This is using the 46" Samsung series 950 LCD, please notice that only CPS-2 games were giving me this issue (please watch these in "HD"):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYXkhi5yEpo

Here's the XRGB-2 to compare the rock solid image it has been giving me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru9MJk03OH4

And finally, here's what happened. The LM1881 I have installed inside the XRGB-3 is teh issue. I had expressed in previous posts that I was going to check if that was the issue, but I hadn't. I am sorry I expressed the XRGB-3 has waviness issues in previous posts. As you can see in the following video these are gone after installing a switch that lets teh original sync or the corrected sync by the LM1881 be selcted.

Here's the final video switching between the corrected sync and the original CPS-2 sync:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OxmrN6BH0k

I believed that the LM1881 could not alter the sync in a negative way. Now here's what I think is happening. Of course it won't affect teh signal when the sync is 60hz, but when fed a different sync such as CPS-2 the values of the capacitor an resistor used at the gamesx diagram are not appropiate since it was designed with 60hz in mind.The LM1881 can handle other frequencies, but the circuit needs to be designed for that or have variable values.

So in short, if you are having issues such as in the first video and have an LM1881, that is the problem. In other words, if you have such sync problems blame your mod, not teh XRGB-3 =P

[Konsolkongen]

Hmmm it looks very similar to the waviness that i got when installing the chip inside my friends RGB modified PC-engine. Is it possible that the PC-engine doesn't run at 60Hz?

Great job figuring this out, i wouldn't have though that the LM1881 could mess the picture up this much either :/ Sucks that you had to install a switch on your XRGB-3 i hope that it looks okay.

[Chacranajxy]

lol, well that makes me feel better.

I'll probably nab one once I get paid for my shit that's on Ebay right now.

[Fudoh]

Hmmm it looks very similar to the waviness that i got when installing the chip inside my friends RGB modified PC-engine. Is it possible that the PC-engine doesn't run at 60Hz?

I have an external LM1881-based sync stripper and in my setup it doesn't make a difference if I put it in between the PC Engine and the XRGB-3 or not. Just out of curisosity: why did you add a LM1881 in the first place ?

[Artemio]

Hmmm it looks very similar to the waviness that i got when installing the chip inside my friends RGB modified PC-engine. Is it possible that the PC-engine doesn't run at 60Hz?

I don't remember my PC Engine having trouble either. I'll check that tonight, after all now I have a switch for very quick compares.

Sucks that you had to install a switch on your XRGB-3 i hope that it looks okay.

Yes.. but it was the best solution I could come up with. I am not really good at case modding, but here are my results. For having no dremel and just pliers and sandpaper it wasn't that bad.

]

[Konsolkongen]

Hmmm it looks very similar to the waviness that i got when installing the chip inside my friends RGB modified PC-engine. Is it possible that the PC-engine doesn't run at 60Hz?

I have an external LM1881-based sync stripper and in my setup it doesn't make a difference if I put it in between the PC Engine and the XRGB-3 or not. Just out of curisosity: why did you add a LM1881 in the first place ?

To see if that would fix the sync issue the PC-engine had with my friends tv. It changed nothing. Then i switched sync signal from Composite Sync to Composite Video and the problem was solved but with the LM1881 still in the cable the picture was waving like shown in Artemio's video. I removed the LM1881 and the picture was fine.

[Konsolkongen]

Yes.. but it was the best solution I could come up with. I am not really good at case modding, but here are my results. For having no dremel and just pliers and sandpaper it wasn't that bad.

I would have placed the switch in the exact same place You should be able to pick up a cheap set of small metal files for less than 10$ in your local tool store.
I usually glue my switches on the other side of the case. You can also see the files i am talking about in this picture. I like them a lot and the holes always turns out pretty perfect when using the square one.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1250640319

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1250640635

Yours turned out pretty good, well hidden but still easy enough to use. A switch is never pretty which is why i always place mine on the back of my consoles.

[Artemio]

I'll get a set of those. Indeed form the inside it would have been more stealthy, well.. not bad for my first switch install. I really wasn't planning to install it last night, I really did it after recording teh first two videos, in order to confirm if the LM1881 was at fault because I couldn't believe the difference.

[Konsolkongen]

It's also worth mentioning that gluing a switch on the inside is more fragile than gluing on the outside like you did. Some glue will simply break off if pressure is applied to the switch and maybe even with just a little pressure but over a long period of time (if shipping the item and the switches are being pressed in by the box). I have started using epoxy adhesive that comes in a syringe which applies equal amounts of resin and hardener. It takes about 4 min before the switches will hold,10-20 min before they can be used, and about 3 days for it to dry completely. They have yet to break off

Well... that might have been a little OT, but its stuff like this i wish i had been told when i first started messing with my consoles

[Artemio]

Thanks for the slightly off topic info Konsolkongen, I am sure more people will find it useful in the future.

I was wondering about the number of XRGB-3s in the market. My serial number is quite low, around the 5K mark (can't recall exactly, I'll check arriving home). I know this is a niche market device, but I really can't believe there are so few of them, since mine has a date of manufacture that falls in this year as well.

[Fudoh]

I've had units below 1000, 2000,4000 and 5000. The most recent one (recently new from japan), also had a 22xx number, so my guess would be that they produced 5000 units and still selling those.

[Konsolkongen]

I wonder how many of them are still in japan. Do you know how many XRGB-2 and + where produced? Is the XRGB-3 a massive failure compared to those?

For the ref. my serial number is 04992. So i guess there are only 8 other XRGB-3's newer than mine ;p

[Artemio]

Mine is slightly above 5200.