Ibara PS2 vs PCB (DOJBLEX thread derailment)

[Elixir]

Understanding the process of modding a PS2 these days takes about as much technical ability as it takes to figure out how to import a JP PS2.

That isn't the point. But when I had someone mod my PS2, he actually had to open it up carefully and solder the modchip in. It most definitely wasn't as easy as merely importing the console.

[bcass]

The main point here is that the PS2 version is grossly overrated and inflated for no reason.

The PS2 version has stuff in it not in the PCB version.

[Elixir]

Like massive slowdown, scanline issues, loading issues, that sort of thing. Yeah.

It also has an arrange mode.

[bcass]

scanline issues, loading issues

Those aren't even issues if you patch it and install it to a HDD. Have you not been listening?

It also has an arrange mode.

That's actually quite fun to play through, which you can't do on the PCB.

Also, does the PCB support hi-score saving? The PS2 version does. And what about enemy bullet colour? Was that ever rectified in the PCB version(s)?

[Elixir]

Yes, I have been listening. Installing it to your HDD requires you to pirate the game. You shouldn't have to patch the game and install it into an unofficial HDD for PS2 just to get it in a playable state. That's just ridiculous.

[bcass]

LOL, pirate the game? That's negligible. When Microsoft provide the facility to install your 360 disc games to the HDD, do you consider that to be piracy as well? Don't most Japanese PCBs have a copyright message at bootup that states that the game is only for sale and use in Japan and any other use is infringement of copyright? Do you abide the wishes of copyright law in those circumstances? If not then you're the last person to be parading under an anti-piracy banner.

Maybe it is ridiculous to have to patch it but it takes about 30 seconds to patch using a hex editor. Hardly a hardship. No more effort than taking a PCB out of it's box, wiring it up to a cab and pressing the power switch, except you only have to patch the game once.

[TLB]

Okay, first of all, the PS2 port LACKS slowdown which makes the game a meatgrinder unless you're Archer.

Second of all, this entire page is fucking retarded. You guys started making completely broken arguments. You still drunk or something, Elixir? ^_~ Actually, I'm looking more at the shit like: 1)...

...Well, actually, I looked back, and almost every single thing bcass said was asinine, no offense. It just seems like you're attacking Elixir now. First of all, installing shit to an HDD requires shit that not everyone has, and also tends to cost "money". Second, of course the fucking PCB saves scores, great argument there. Third, the bullets are just fine, pussy. Didn't I hear you can only change it in arrange mode anyway? Do you cry about the bullets in Garegga, too? Fourth, unless you happen to own the Ibara port and can, in fact, rip it yourself, which takes some technical know-how (more than it takes to connect a PCB to a JAMMA harness; ever plugged a socket into a wall?), you will have to pirate it. And now for the legal messages in the games. Do you even have any idea what they actually mean or what they're for? The term "may" is used. That means you don't know what they mean. You have no idea why they care, or what it is they care about in particular. (And if you do, please let me know.) They most likely don't care about some nerd playing it in his basement. What they probably DON'T want you doing, for whatever reason, is buying it for an arcade or some such venture to make money with it without them knowing about it. It's retained in the ports because it's in the arcade game. Really beyond a pointless argument here, and I want to close this right now because it's stupid and I'm being such a dick to bcass (sorreh, bro), but I put too much effort into it to throw it away.

And I guarantee taking a PCB out of a box and Plugging It In is faster than getting it running illegally on a PS2. Just editing in a hex editor doesn't start playing the game.

[Limbrooke]

Come on, "imported Japanese console" and what else, gold encrusted chalice? Apparently Ibara for the PS2 (as flawed as it is), even at current ridiculous prices, is cheaper than a board, and you don't need a Japanese PS2 to play it. That is all.

Basically what you're trying to say is that buying a modded PS2 along with a legit copy of Ibara is a fair comparison to buying a Supergun along with the arcade board. Well uh, it isn't, so you might as well get that out of your head already. With that logic you would need some sort of pirated Supergun to make it fair. Buying a JP PS2 along with Ibara is accurate, however, and it is STILL cheaper. But in this case it's like THE said, the price difference is within $100 and it's a matter of crap or silver.

A supergun with pcb is fair to compare to a modded PS2 with original dvd software. An arcade cabinet with pcb is comparable to an import console with original dvd software. Superguns are, suffice to say, hacked arcade cabinet hardware. Much like how a modded PS2 is hacked. Both superguns and mods are a cheaper alternative to the real thing, the only difference being mods having the alluring effect of playing copies (aka at little to no cost) which of course unless you buy a bootleg pcb is nowhere close to being the same since money is still involved to a great extent.

Not to mention like a modchip, superguns aren't terribly easy to make(install) by some peoples standard but they are of course cheaper than the real thing, ie an import system and or an actual arcade cabinet.

Also how is it the most intelligent post on this topic gets overlooked?

Load times are done in the same way as the Garegga port on the Saturn, and with pretty much identical load duration between both ports - so if you're used to one, you're used to the other. The only main difference here is that the Ibara PS2 port actually shows you a loading animation and lets you move about the screen, the Garegga Saturn port just freezes the screen.

And, as an owner of both the port and the PCB, I find the port isn't all that bad. I don't have the same issues about the graphics as other people because, honestly, I don't care. As long as the game plays fine, then it's all good to me. My main irritation is the lack of slowdown, but it can be worked around. And seriously, if you have to rely on slowdown, then you really need more practice. ;p

Just take a look at Archer. Scores 31mil on the PS2 port without batting an eyelid.

If the world recorder holder in Ibara can rack up over 30 mil on PS2 then for most people who're likely to not score even 1/2 that amount, the flaws it has shouldn't be a deal-breaking problem. There is the patch which does improve things but in the end some people are simply affected by the general point of things being hard to see (like non-Red Ball from Garegga for instance [shrug]) from the get go. Run the game in Tate mode, with the patch, and some practice will do you good. However, I will say $100 and beyond is absurd for the PS2 game and it's disappointing to see it has risen so high. Perhaps the canned Taito-Best release has something to do with this. Speaking for myself I wouldn't shell that much out but at the same time not owning a supergun I wouldn't go the pcb route either. I will say the pcb is at great price but again, for myself, the PS2 game has enticing practice capability (like Garegga on Saturn) and if need arises, the Arrange mode, the pcb has... neither.

[Elixir]

LOL, pirate the game? That's negligible. When Microsoft provide the facility to install your 360 disc games to the HDD, do you consider that to be piracy as well? Don't most Japanese PCBs have a copyright message at bootup that states that the game is only for sale and use in Japan and any other use is infringement of copyright? Do you abide the wishes of copyright law in those circumstances? If not then you're the last person to be parading under an anti-piracy banner.

No, you can install your 360 games to HDD but you need the disc present in order for the games to run. I live in a city with an arcade FULL of machines that say "Japan only", so that's out.

Maybe it is ridiculous to have to patch it but it takes about 30 seconds to patch using a hex editor. Hardly a hardship. No more effort than taking a PCB out of it's box, wiring it up to a cab and pressing the power switch, except you only have to patch the game once.

So now you're comparing pirating the game; downloading it, patching it, and running it in a PS2, all providing that you have a tate'd CRT to get proper quality out of it, oh and you need to go through the entire process of having a modchipped PS2, getting the network adapter so you can use HDDs, and buying a HDD, in comparison to purchasing a Supergun and arcade board outright. And the end result is a *slightly better* Ibara for PS2.

I don't need to tell you how stupid you sound right now.

And how many people are going to do this in comparison to purchasing the overpriced, overrated PS2 version of Ibara? Barely anyone, which means they're getting the legitimate unpatched version. The same version which will have scanline and loading issues, so my claim about it being overpriced and not worth the current price still stands. Arrange is neat, but it isn't worth all the hassle, and it CERTAINLY is not worth $125 or whatever the going rate for this is.

edit; fuck, beaten

[bcass]

First of all, installing shit to an HDD requires shit that not everyone has, and also tends to cost "money".

Making or buying a supergun involves costs and shit that not everyone has.

Second, of course the fucking PCB saves scores, great argument there.

It wasn't an argument, it was a question. Most PCBs don't, which is why I asked the question.

Third, the bullets are just fine

Many would disagree, which is *one* of the reasons why this PCB is worth fuck-all.

Fourth, unless you happen to own the Ibara port and can, in fact, rip it yourself, which takes some technical know-how

What technical know-how would this be? I installed a HDD and Ibara onto it and I don't recall any specialist skills or knowledge being required. I had to follow a few written instructions that were no more complicated than setting dip switches.

They most likely don't care about some nerd playing it in his basement. What they probably DON'T want you doing, for whatever reason, is buying it for an arcade or some such venture to make money with it without them knowing about it.

So you don't know either. It's obviously a legal grey-area, but on the face of it there are copyrights in place that prevent the game from being sold or used outside Japan.

And I guarantee taking a PCB out of a box and Plugging It In is faster than getting it running illegally on a PS2. Just editing in a hex editor doesn't start playing the game.

Possibly, but it required no more skill and only ever needs to be done once, unlike having to switch PCBs when you want to play another PCB game.

[Chacranajxy]

Just wanna throw out that a while back, I talked to some dude I know at Capcom about this, and those notices about "only for use in [insert region]" refer to commercial use. There's no issue with personal use outside of Japan.

Anyway, I'm currently in the process of selling my PS2 copies of Ibara and Mushihime... if I'm picking up the PCBs, there's no reason not to, right?

[bcass]

Just wanna throw out that a while back, I talked to some dude I know at Capcom about this, and those notices about "only for use in [insert region]" refer to commercial use. There's no issue with personal use outside of Japan.

For Capcom, sure, a large international company that has little to lose by allowing regional products to cross regions since most of their stuff is published internationally anyway. For a small company like Cave? Their definition could be somewhat different.

Anyway, I'm currently in the process of selling my PS2 copies of Ibara and Mushihime... if I'm picking up the PCBs, there's no reason not to, right?

If you don't mind losing the stuff that's exclusive to those ports, then sure, sell them to fund purchase of the PCBs.

[chempop]

I still find it funny how your making the argument that it is not worth $100+ when the going BIN rate on ebay is $200+,
so its a bad deal to spend half the money it would cost you otherwise? Pure genius...

Did the thought ever cross anyone that the ports of Ibara and Mushi (which are so often criticized here) are really the best they can be on the PS2, after all, it seems to me that Galuda and DOJ ports might be closer to the PCB simply due to the PS2's hardware capabilities. I'm probably wrong and the chances are that Taito just slacked and Arika put more time into it.

Still though it makes me wonder. The Saturn had cleaner capcom arcade ports than the Dreamcast, and the DC is better at 2D than the PS2.. so maybe PS2 Ibara's graphics needed to be toned down a tad for it to run well on the console.

[Elixir]

Yes, I'm sure Cave are going to gatecrash your house and steal your arcade board/s because you imported them from Glorious Nippon and you're using them without having signed an international fair-use agreement that they won't be used commercially.

Next up, let's compare learning visualbasic to trying to hack into the matrix. Installing a PS2 HDD and jargon isn't necessary for Ibara, nor should it be a requirement, or even needed at all. Just because "it's easy to do" (which is subjective) doesn't mean it makes it an accurate comparison to simply buying the arcade board. Practice mode I can understand, but for the most part, Arrange modes are irrelevant as it's a marketing tool.

So this thread is pretty much going around in circles now.

when the going BIN rate on ebay is $200+

I really doubt those are "going" anywhere.

[Jockel]

Practice mode I can understand, but for the most part, Arrange modes are irrelevant as it's a marketing tool.

I understand where you are getting with this, but i disagree.
IF you only consider the port as an opportunity to practice scoring on the real thing, your point is valid.
However if you want to play for fun and not just for score (which is debatable, because you can compare scores in arrange mode as well) the existance of the arrange mode is perfectly reasonable.

[Elixir]

The existence of arrange mode still doesn't justify the $125 price tag, nor excuses the flaws of the game.

[captpain]

I still find it funny how your making the argument that it is not worth $100+ when the going BIN rate on ebay is $200+,
so its a bad deal to spend half the money it would cost you otherwise? Pure genius...

Did the thought ever cross anyone that the ports of Ibara and Mushi (which are so often criticized here) are really the best they can be on the PS2, after all, it seems to me that Galuda and DOJ ports might be closer to the PCB simply due to the PS2's hardware capabilities. I'm probably wrong and the chances are that Taito just slacked and Arika put more time into it.

Still though it makes me wonder. The Saturn had cleaner capcom arcade ports than the Dreamcast, and the DC is better at 2D than the PS2.. so maybe PS2 Ibara's graphics needed to be toned down a tad for it to run well on the console.

No, there's no hardware limitations that require games to have graphics filters run on them. It's just goofy people porting the game who missed the point.

Also, when the loading screens are the same duration when loaded from an HDD as when loaded from a disc, there's some more strange nonsense going on (in all likelihood).

[captpain]

The existence of arrange mode still doesn't justify the $125 price tag, nor excuses the flaws of the game.

While I agree with you, I'd like to suggest that you reevaluate how severely you look at the process required to make the port look and act a little better. It's obviously not simple but it's really not confusing or difficult at all.

[Elixir]

The existence of arrange mode still doesn't justify the $125 price tag, nor excuses the flaws of the game.

While I agree with you, I'd like to suggest that you reevaluate how severely you look at the process required to make the port look and act a little better. It's obviously not simple but it's really not confusing or difficult at all.

The port acts no differently, it just looks better. And the process still has to be done, which shouldn't be a requirement to begin with, but is.

Justifying the current price of Ibara for PS2 is impossible. It's just another console title victim to word-of-mouth like Taroumaru or Harmful Park, which are all good games but certainly not worth their going rate.

Can we drop this and go in another complete circle in say, 3 years time when DOJBLEX skyrockets in price for no real justifiable reason?

[captpain]

Is the price always so high for these games because there are few small print runs in the first place? I guess they actually wind up being rare in Japan, too, right?

[Elixir]

Ibara is a special case, in that it has skyrocketed in the past 6 months for no reason at all. Batsugun boards have also done so, which is weird because it happened almost immediately after buying mine for cheap. MMP boards did the same thing right after I bought one last year.

For older stuff like Saturn titles, it's more or less rare now because people are just finding out about these games recently. I mean, Taroumaru was no different in 2000 as it is in 2009, but the prices are. This is why I say it's mostly due to the reputation status they get for having low print runs, it doesn't matter if the game is good or not (Taroumaru in particular is nothing special, and Harmful Park is the easiest game alive) it just needs to be rare or have good box art or suck your dick or something.

All I know is something is seriously wrong when a bad port of a rather infamous game starts getting in the same range as the arcade board itself. Some games are legitimately rare (ie. European Zone of the Enders 2 Special Edtion), but at least buying that has a more justifiable advantage over buying the normal version.