Headphone volume output question. Assistence needed.

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Super Laydock
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Headphone volume output question. Assistence needed.

Post by Super Laydock »

Maybe this should be in the "hardware subforum", but since it's not necessarily shmup related I thought I'd better ask here.

Anyway, I love playing games with headphones on and basically need to as well due to other people living here who don't appreciate loud game music in the middle of the night and all.
I've had this fantastic headphones for a few years now, which I almost randomly purchased not knowing what to look for. Lucky purchase I think.
It has broken now however and I need a new headset.

I've noticed that quite a few headphones have very limited volume. I want the range of volume to be high if that makes any sense.

I've been looking at some nice looking sets in some online stores but don't know what specifications to look for regarding volume output (I suppose the hertz thing has to do with frequencies only :?).

Does anyone know what I should be looking for on a box/specification list to know how loud the output can be?

Sorry if this sounds stupid but as admitted b4 I am a total tech nitwit. :oops:
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freddiebamboo
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Re: Headphone volume output question. Assistence needed.

Post by freddiebamboo »

Sennheiser and shure headphones (either in-ear or proper large efforts) are a good bet, although expect to pay upwards of £50 for them. They are worth it though for the extra volume and sound clarity if you are going to get a lot of use out of them. Avoid the cheaper sony headphones and pretty much anything made by apple or creative (heard lots of horror stories) and you should be ok.

http://www.shure.com/index.htm

http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/home_en.nsf

If you are just going to be using them indoors and don't particularly care for sound quality, then getting a cheap pair of DJ headphones is probably a more sensible option. They'll be loud as hell, just fugly and not crystal clear sounding.
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Re: Headphone volume output question. Assistence needed.

Post by Icarus »

Mmmm... I adore Sennheiser headsets, but they are pretty pricey.

At home, I have a pair of HD205 DJ-style headphones, and the sound quality is second to none on them. They're virtually noise-cancelling too, since they're so thickly padded. If you like your sound loud - and I love loud music, being a trancehead - then this can make the deal for you. I got them from HMV for £30, if I recall correctly, pretty cheap, but if you want even better quality, you'll probably pay more than £60 for a pair.

On the go, I used to use a pair of OMX-90-VC earclips, but I found them a little unwieldly, and hard to transport. Recently I am starting to prefer neckband headphones, and am currently using a pair of Sony MDR-AS30 phones for the comfort and the snug fit in my ears... though I have my eves on a very nice pair of Sennheiser PMX-200 neckband phones...

In terms of what you should be looking for in the specifications list, you should take a look at the impedance value: I've been told that anything less than 150 ohms is best for a pair of headphones, the lower the better, as higher values limits the amount of power that can be delivered by the headphone jack (ohm's law). My HD205 headphones have a nominal impedance of 32 ohms, which sort-of explains why I can use them as neck-mounted speakers on occasion without sound distortion. ^_^
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Re: Headphone volume output question. Assistence needed.

Post by Super Laydock »

Thanks for the info guys! :D

Especially those links to the Sennheiser proved to be very helpful since lots is explained there about what the specifications mean.
Seems I should indeed be watching the ohm level, but also this thing called SPL (sound pressure level).

Most headphones with nice reviews I've checked out so far range from 24 ohm to 32 and spl's from 98 to 112 (like that HD 205 Icarus mentions).

The heaphone will be strictly used indoor for PC/gaming purposes so it has to be one of those earcovering ones.
As for price, I was looking for a price range of 30>40 Euro max. And there seems to be some nice deals for some of those Sennheiser ones. The HD205 would set me back 34 Euro shipped at a pretty well known Dutch webshop for instance.

For the moment I have and eye on indeed that HD 205 & a Philips one (SBCHP400), which would set me back 5 Euro's less.

I am tending towards that sennheiser one after both frediebamboo & Icarus mention the quality of the brand's headphones.
Some reviews of it however say it's great but has a too tight fit.
Since I've got a fairly large head I suppose, I was wondering how much truth is in those comments?
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freddiebamboo
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Re: Headphone volume output question. Assistence needed.

Post by freddiebamboo »

Well I owned a pair of HD 25-SP's when I used to DJ which let the headphones slide up and down the band they're mounted on, guaranteed to fit any head on the planet I would say - not sure if all the sennheisers do this though (Icarus will know). The 25's cost a sodding fortune unfortunately, my pair died after 5 years and I can't justify the ridiculous price for the use I'd get out of them these days as they are not suited to portable players. I loved them though, the most comfortable, clear and warm sounding headphones I've ever used.
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Re: Headphone volume output question. Assistence needed.

Post by Ed Oscuro »

I used some Sennheiser HD280PROs for years (from at least 2005 to a few months ago) and they're nice studio monitor headphones, but very "flat" sounding, and the range of frequencies could be better (tops out in the 20KHz range, like 25KHz or something). 64 ohms impedance.

Now I use Audio-Technica ATH-A900 headphones, and they're very nice. Range of frequencies is up to 40KHz+ and the impedance is slightly lower (at 40 ohms) - probably just lowered enough to improve battery life on things without destroying their sound.

Volume in headphones (at the ranges you'd want to listen to) isn't tied to impedance, but the quality of the sound is. Probably more detail than just volume, however: pushing up the volume won't give you static-filled noise. Here is some reading on that issue; the author doesn't mention headphones specifically, but you get the idea.

Now, ignoring the balance of source to load (mentioned in the link above) for a moment...

Higher impedance phones can deliver detailed sound across a wide range of volumes, but high impedance phones suck more power, making them bad choices for plugging straight into most consumer devices (and they drain batteries faster). Plugging it into a weak source will give you thin, weak sound.

Low impedance phones are good for portable music players and most low-end decks and the like. Plugging it into a strong source will give you exaggerated bass and other nastiness.

Personally, I would go for whatever matches the situation you're using, but if (like me) you're using lower-power sources more often, you might as well go with a headphones that has consumer-level impedance. Just a wild guess that'll work nicer most of the time for you. Whenever I run into distortion, I dial back the volume a bit.

I would also pay some attention to the hertz rating, as a wider range is always nicer. Switching to a different pair of 'phones may take some getting used to (and some adjustment - head-fi.org has some guides, which I haven't bothered with, on tuning frequencies on your audio devices to your ears by using pink noise).

There are some equally important characteristics that don't seem to be marketed as such. The HD280PRO is a very flat headphone, i.e. the sound is usually right around your ears. Not terribly exciting. The ATH-A900s, on the other hand, have very detailed sound (that I blame on the ancient computer speaker I'm using as a ghetto amp - that because the front-panel imput on my PC case was shabby, heh), and just as important the sound on the A900s is also much grander in scale - stereo separation is very nice, and puts you in the middle of the sound. I've read a review where somebody noted that some old recordings' stereo separation sounded exaggerated with these, but I've felt nothing of the sort.

Finally, the closed vs. open headphone debate. Even open headphones will leak less noise than speakers (for obvious reasons), so if said neighbors are on the other side of a wall you might get away with some nice open headphones. I bought my ATH-A900 headphones in part because they were a closed design, so I can listen to stuff without annoying people, but these actually leak some sound - and don't block as much as the HD280PROs did.

Final thought: Save your ears; get some decent equipment that will render detailed sound BEFORE you have to push the volume up. You can always get a new pair of headphones, but you'll have those ears for years to come.
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Re: Headphone volume output question. Assistence needed.

Post by PC Engine Fan X! »

Fascinating info on the world of headphones there, Ed. ^_~

Would you say that Sony makes some good headphones as well or not?

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Re: Headphone volume output question. Assistence needed.

Post by Ed Oscuro »

The answer is "sure, but I wouldn't know firsthand." I felt like writing more for fun, so:

I try to stick to the rule of only reviewing gear that I own (funny rant incoming!), and unfortunately the only Sony headphones I own are the infamous MDR-V150s (which I use on REALLY noisy sources, like an old TV or Sound Blaster, where they don't pick up nearly as much as the high-end cans do for whatever reason).

Posting that link reminds me to write that, although I'm a terrible lazy person and haven't installed the sound card which would somewhat amplify my headphones, I'm still feeling that the A900 and HD280PRO perform pretty well with onboard "HD Audio" (the next bump up from AC'97 - shudder), and they do pretty good for me without any amplification (although I suppose that speaker plugged in at all times whose jack I'm using is a cheap amp; they still will sound good just plugged into the non-amplified onboard).

Sony has a very wide range of headphones, both in sheer numbers and as far as cost goes - from the extreme bottom end (the V150s are about $10 new, and my pair is about a decade old) to the extreme high end in the MDR-SA5000 (which costs about $700 depending on where you get it). In terms of the number of parts, they're about the same as Sennheiser according to Amazon's number of parts per company. Some other well-respected companies in the business (like AKG) have about a quarter of the number (~150) of either of them. Obviously AKG isn't making earbuds and cheap MDR-V150 type phones for the market in volumes like Sony, but that's still a lot of parts! I figure there's going to be a lot of "lemons" in the lineups from Sony (and possibly Sennheiser or any other brand with 600+ parts on the market) as they try to differentiate their product lines quite strongly, and even just in product tolerances not being as carefully matched.

But to answer your question, finally:
Sony certainly makes products in a lot of lines that are highly regarded.
* Camcorders are the one people usually mention. In the world of professional cinema, only recently have the announced specs of Red cameras (like the Scarlet or Epic "brains") beaten out Sony's products for resolution.
* Going back a step, Sony's Alpha series DSLRs are, more or less, the equivalent of anything from Nikon or Canon. Granted a lot of it is due to the Carl Zeiss partnership, and the main factor is that they absorbed Konica-Minolta in 2006, but they've still made some great cameras (the Alpha A900, for example, is a better still camera than the T1i I bought recently, and apparently in the class of Canon's EOS 5D Mark II or EOS-1D Mark III).

So yeah, if you can look past the crap in their lineup, you can find some gems, but unfortunately it's usually quite high-priced due to some careful positioning work by the marketing folks. I can't say what the effect of volume is on Sony's "acceptable" to high-end headphones is, since I imagine most of the volume is in earbuds and the like.

You could almost take the following, taken from Simon Joinson's Alpha A900 review for DPReview, and replace a few words to get the right information about Sony's headphone line:
The Alpha 900 represents in a nutshell the almost schizophrenic nature of Sony's digital camera division, which can market compact cameras with smile detection and a Playstation style user interface at the same time as this, perhaps the most pared-down, frill-free and unashamedly 'serious' DSLR we've seen in a long time.
Likewise, Sony does well selling the decks and headphones to mix and analyze output from their (I assume they make them) condenser / shotgun microphones tacked onto a camcorder (which may be fitted with Sony-branded non-volatile memory) on the one hand, but they also sell the headphones for the person who bought the lossy iTunes version of the video or the soundtrack.
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Re: Headphone volume output question. Assistence needed.

Post by TodayIsForgotten »

I assume the low-volume headphones are like 10 dollar cheapies? I like what Ed said about buying a better source and then build around that. Pretty much a cardinal rule, but in some cases this is more money than one is willing to spend. I would advise against buying sub 20 dollar headphones. Now that, that is out the way, it really doesn't matter if you buy a 50 dollar pair of headphones or a 1000 dollar pair. You will HARDLY hear a difference among the phones if you are just using some crap soundcard and even then if you are using a decent sound card (perhaps sound blaster xfi). You will hear better sound out of the phones but you'd definitely need to buy an amp and a dac (if on computer) to really have a nice pair of(above $100) phones to shine.

Perhaps Ed could clarify this but i forget what you need to look for in a headphone as far as what takes well to an amplified source and what headphones don't need an amplified source to sound good.

Case-in-point. I own a pair of Audio Technica ES7s and they make no difference amplified or not, but my AKG 701s sound amazing amplified vs in soundcard(sound blaster audigy)
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Re: Headphone volume output question. Assistence needed.

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Sigh...I really need to get that soundcard installed. That said I can still tell the difference between my different 'phones - but the ATH-A900s are probably not going to sound nearly as nice as they could amplified. Dunno - I have a hard time imagining they can sound amazingly better than they do right now, but we'll see, er, hear.
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Re: Headphone volume output question. Assistence needed.

Post by TodayIsForgotten »

I use to have a website before I lost my bookmarks that showed what headphones took well to amplification. Its hard to describe but if i just have the 701s in the stereo jack, they sound good, but when they are amp'd they now have layers and the sound becomes lush and alive. Not a huge difference but when you really listen it is a huge difference. Weird and hard to describe or explain.
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Re: Headphone volume output question. Assistence needed.

Post by clp »

Basically you cant go wrong with Grado headphones , you can pick up the lower end models for 70 and they perform wonderfully, just look them up .
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Re: Headphone volume output question. Assistence needed.

Post by Cthulhu »

I'm sure the audiophiles here will rip me to shreds for these comments, but I'll say them anyways...

1) No headphones / ear buds under $40 will sound really good no matter what you do.
2) Most headphones / ear buds between $40 and $100 will sound good but not all that different from each other.
3) Once you start getting above that price range, you'll start getting much better sound and the quality of one set to another will start to vary more.
4) Wireless headphones suck, don't bother.

I have a pair of $150 Bose on-ear headphones (I don't know the model #, sorry) and I love them. Sound quality is totally awesome. My earbuds are ~$50 Sony ones. They sound pretty good.

If you get the really nice in-ear ear buds, save yourself a lot of money and heartache and DO NOT pull on the cords to take them out of your ears. Pull on the units themselves. If you yank on the cords you're just begging to ruin your stuff.
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Re: Headphone volume output question. Assistence needed.

Post by freddiebamboo »

Cthulhu wrote: If you get the really nice in-ear ear buds, save yourself a lot of money and heartache and DO NOT pull on the cords to take them out of your ears. Pull on the units themselves. If you yank on the cords you're just begging to ruin your stuff.
100% agree.
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Re: Headphone volume output question. Assistence needed.

Post by Elixir »

Cthulhu wrote:I'm sure the audiophiles here will rip me to shreds for these comments, but I'll say them anyways...

1) No headphones / ear buds under $40 will sound really good no matter what you do.
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Re: Headphone volume output question. Assistence needed.

Post by ReKleSS »

Volume will be determined by impedance and efficiency. Impedance will determine how much current will flow through the headphones (for a given input signal), efficiency tells you how much air gets moved for a given amount of current. That said, it really shouldn't matter - if you're not intent on ruining your hearing, anything that doesn't have massive impedance or very low efficiency, connected to a decent source should be loud enough. If your source can't deliver much current a headphone amp will help... Fiio produce some very cheap ones with reasonable quality.

My suggestion is to figure out your budget, then look up a budget-based list of headphones. My personal suggestion is the Audio-Technica AD series (good value, good sound, possibly the most comfortable headphones around?).

---

...Oh, I just saw your budget. Not much to say about that price range.
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Re: Headphone volume output question. Assistence needed.

Post by emphatic »

Stay away from Phillips. They might look awesome and sound nice, but THEY WILL BREAK. I have a pair of cheap Sennheisers now (HD 202) and while they make your ears sweat if you use them excessively (DJing), they sound awesome and are very sturdily built.
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Re: Headphone volume output question. Assistence needed.

Post by Jockel »

I'm gonna buy some Shure's now, thanks to this thread. ^^
Because i have Sony MDR-V150s right now and i already really like those.
Now here comes freddiebamboo suggesting that Sony's are shit recommending Shure's.
I'm excited for the new Sound that's awaiting me :mrgreen:
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Re: Headphone volume output question. Assistence needed.

Post by MX7 »

Elixir wrote:
Cthulhu wrote:I'm sure the audiophiles here will rip me to shreds for these comments, but I'll say them anyways...

1) No headphones / ear buds under $40 will sound really good no matter what you do.
Koss PortaPros?
Good man. Koss ear buds are ridiculously good headphones for the money. They sound amazing, have the best bass response of any headphones I have used outside of a studio, and they're built to last too.
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