Go Bulls!!! (Pamplona)

[Super Laydock]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090712/wl ... 0712143539

I really love these stories.
Just wished a few more of those a-holes found death there every day.

This is intolerable exploitation of animals for "fun".
Glad to see that sometimes what comes around goes around.

[KindGrind]

Was there a few years ago, watching from a flat window (3rd story). The people getting gored there are typically douche foreigners looking for a thrill. The bulls stand a "much better chance" there than in the bullring though. Watched a corrida -a big one, from Sevilla if memory serves- on national TV one fine Sunday afternoon while I was living there and got quite disgusted. Dire spectacle. I understand where they come from with it and all, but as a show it's pretty bad entertainment.

[Ed Oscuro]

This is intolerable exploitation of animals for "fun".
Glad to see that sometimes what comes around goes around.

Don't even need to comment on the congratulation of killing people...that's no better or worse than killing the animals, plus the people who are running are just out there to run with the bulls, not to torture them. From the bull's perspective, it's probably a better life and death than many animals get in the commercial food business.

It's strange to say, but bulls are cattle, i.e. domesticated, and don't exist apart from people. That doesn't excuse mistreatment, but without people they don't have a place in most ecosystems today.

The bulls stand a "much better chance" there than in the bullring though.

Considering that the route is straight to the bullring...

The people getting gored there are typically douche foreigners looking for a thrill.

This year eight of the eleven people injured were Spaniards (including the dead guy). You sure you aren't confusing Spaniards with foreigners?

[KindGrind]

No no. I'm surprised to see that many Spaniards this year.

[antron]

Does anyone reading this know how cattle are typically killed in their country?

In the US could be an airgun shank to the head. Possibly dragged into the slaughterhouse awake. Over and over again.
Lets stop this shit first, then worry about the bullfights.

[Ed Oscuro]

KindGrind: Only two non-Spaniards have ever been killed at the run since records started, and one was Mexican. Maybe it's the point of view you're having.

Does anyone reading this know how cattle are typically killed in their country?

Looking at my post above, I would say yes

Anyhow, I find it rather offensive that people would look at images like these (warning: graphic violence, very bloody) and write something like "yay for the bull." The only answer is simply less violence, instead of redirecting the hate against one's own species. The fact that we are here, as a successful species, is in no small part due to our often parasitic relationships with the animals we change through breeding. We don't "pay," as antron says, it's just a torture that continues forever and ever. By comparison, the bullfight is arranged around the fiction that sometimes the animal can win (sometimes the bull is allowed to live if it did very well), and the "fighting chance" is closer to the ideal of the bulls being allowed to live a happy life. Of course, there's no need in the modern world for an animal to have horns like that, right?

[KindGrind]

Right, it seems I always thought the opposite for some reason. I stand corrected...

[Super Laydock]

This is intolerable exploitation of animals for "fun".
Glad to see that sometimes what comes around goes around.

Don't even need to comment on the congratulation of killing people...that's no better or worse than killing the animals, plus the people who are running are just out there to run with the bulls, not to torture them.

These people CHOSE to be there, the bull didn't.
Those people were getting "fun" out of the misery of an animal's fight for survival while defending himself.
Those people know or should know how the animals are made "hyped" up/ teased and shouldn't complain if they receive the fruits of that.

From the bull's perspective, it's probably a better life and death than many animals get in the commercial food business.

At least it's not for the purpose of providing "fun" if they're strictly killed for food.

It's strange to say, but bulls are cattle, i.e. domesticated, and don't exist apart from people. That doesn't excuse mistreatment, but without people they don't have a place in most ecosystems today.

You could also say that if it weren't for people, they would not have been domesticated and sill have a place in some ecosystems. In some parts of the world, their "nephews" are still roaming the fields (Serengeti), so to say their raison d'etre is just being possesed and used by humans is somewhat misplaced.

Anyhow, I find it rather offensive that people would look at images like these (warning: graphic violence, very bloody) and write something like "yay for the bull."

I really don't see the offensive part, as they were partaking in an event were they knew that the source of all fun (and eventually their injuries/deaths) would be killed itself in the name of spectacle and pleasure for the people.
I hadn't seen those pics yet, but I don't find them particularly disturbing. Not more than I feel disturbed
when seeing a bull getting knives put in his neck and all anyway.
Especially, and I can't stress this enough: the people CHOSE to be there and accepted the risk, the bull didn't have a choice. He, for all he knows, is fighting for survival against these loons!

The only answer is simply less violence, instead of redirecting the hate against one's own species.

No.
The only answer is to stop exploiting/killing animals for no other purpose than entertainment.
If it weren't for that, those people would still be alive.

[DEL]

Super Laydock wrote;

No.
The only answer is to stop exploiting/killing animals for no other purpose than entertainment.

I agree. When a Nation glorifies the exploitation and public killing of animals it sends out a very bad message to its population on the general treatment of animals as a whole.
Sets a bad precedent.

[Udderdude]

A bunch of people intentionally running from bulls in a city?

I'm rooting for the bulls.

[Stormwatch]

When someone does something as stupid as running in front of bulls... how can I not hope that they all get flushed out of the gene pool?

[Ed Oscuro]

Why are you pulling an Escadrille on me, Laydock, with all the stacked quotes?

The only answer is to stop exploiting/killing animals for no other purpose than entertainment.

Uh, isn't that what I said?

Also, I piss on the use of "exploiting" here; such a useless word. I'm exploiting the atmosphere by breathing. I'm exploiting fish by absorbing their proteins and other nutrients by eating them. I'm exploiting the happy trees by chopping them down for making my house. The fact that the bulls weigh over half a ton is probably partly due to their having been "exploited" (i.e. selected for breeding) for ten thousand years by humans, and made bigger and stupider than their natural counterparts. So yeah I guess I should go back in time and tell somebody not to make bulls so big and bad, but then one big animal is probably better to deal with than a bunch so it made sense at the time.

Spouting sweeping generalizations is generally not a good way to impress, but even so I should say: I don't think that everybody who goes to the running of the bulls is doing it because of the "In Rome..." factor, i.e. it's the thing to do when there. No doubt a lot of them (especially the daft tourists KindGrind mentioned) don't watch the bullfight later. Kids on the playground picking on an outcast?! They should be gored by a bull! I think this picture is a good illustration of it; there's one doofus who may be about to lose his arm making everybody in the picture look bad, but most of the folks there are just watching. If voyeurism was a repugnant offense, then Andrew Sullivan is right and all of society is to blame for Michael Jackson's death, which I find to be a preposterous argument.

When someone does something as stupid as running in front of bulls... how can I not hope that they all get flushed out of the gene pool?

Natural selection works again! Still, something that could've been prevented by somebody's parents telling them not to do stupid things that could result in a bull ripping off their testicles with its horn. On that note, I wonder if people who get overly excited about "atrocities" have been bred like chickens to be overly excitable. Ah, the modern commercial chicken - not the finest example of artificial selection at work.

[Udderdude]

Natural selection works again! Still, something that could've been prevented by somebody's parents telling them not to do stupid things that could result in a bull ripping off their testicles with its horn. On that note, I wonder if people who get overly excited about "atrocities" have been bred like chickens to be overly excitable. Ah, the modern commercial chicken - not the finest example of artificial selection at work.

Modern commercial chickens are great examples of artificial selection at work. Cause they're delicious :O

[GaijinPunch]

When someone does something as stupid as running in front of bulls... how can I not hope that they all get flushed out of the gene pool?

Even if they're not circumcised?

[Stormwatch]

That's grounds for flushing too.

[handsome_rakshas]

DOES NOT APPROVE OF THREAD

[Super Laydock]

Why are you pulling an Escadrille on me, Laydock, with all the stacked quotes?

I would answer that if I'd know the meaning of that expression.
In any case, I really wasn't meaning to personally attack you (sorry if it felt that way).
You just gave an argumented reply to my (initially driven by "emotions") post.
Therefore I felt compelled to reply to some aspects of your argument and try to get some basis behind my argument/remark as well.

The only answer is to stop exploiting/killing animals for no other purpose than entertainment.

Uh, isn't that what I said?

That may be the case, but I can't read that in the quote I used from you there.
If we do agree on this point, we don't need to argue about it indeed.


PS. for the record:

Modern commercial chickens from these huge industrial farms, don't taste even near as good as
free range ones. Though even those can be tasty.

[ncp]

Why are you pulling an Escadrille on me, Laydock, with all the stacked quotes?

I would answer that if I'd know the meaning of that expression.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=26799

Also, PETA thread, blah blah. Animals have been killed for entertainment since ancient Rome, I doubt it will stop now or any time soon. Yeah, it's wrong, but so is calling someone an asshole after they were violently killed by a bull, especially considering they aren't even the ones doing the abuse, the matadors are. Running down the street is not tantamount to "intolerable exploitation", that doesn't happen until later when those bulls are used for bullfighting.

[Turrican]

From the bull's perspective, it's probably a better life and death than many animals get in the commercial food business.

At least it's not for the purpose of providing "fun" if they're strictly killed for food.

I tried to convince myself that "strictly for food" is a better reason than entertainment, but eventually it's just as selfish. Yes the corrida looks a lot more cruel, but how many bulls are killed in these shows during a year? These are a very few casualties compared to the systematic genocide that occurs in the slaughterhouses of the whole world.

I don't want to sound like a vegetarian fundamentalist, but I have my doubt that this "food" is really eaten strictly for survival purposes... When you go at a five star restaurant and order a giant steak, that is "entertainment" as well. Especially considered that a good chunk of the world still lives with a bowl of rice / other cereal per day.

[Super Laydock]

Why are you pulling an Escadrille on me, Laydock, with all the stacked quotes?

I would answer that if I'd know the meaning of that expression.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=26799

Thanks for that.
Haven't read the whole thread, but I think I have a better understanding of what was meant there.

Also, PETA thread, blah blah. Animals have been killed for entertainment since ancient Rome, I doubt it will stop now or any time soon. Yeah, it's wrong

glad we at least agree on that.

, but so is calling someone an asshole after they were violently killed by a bull

I sometimes call people that for even less.
And I have never had problems with speaking bad of the dead if I somehow felt compelled to do so.
Does this grace me? No.
Is it necessarily wrong? No. Why?

but I have my doubt that this "food" is really eaten strictly for survival purposes... When you go at a five star restaurant and order a giant steak, that is "entertainment" as well. Especially considered that a good chunk of the world still lives with a bowl of rice / other cereal per day.

Yes, I suppose I kinda agree with that.
Though somehow the comparison to the subject at hand doesn't feel right!?

I'll give that some thought.

[Ed Oscuro]

Haven't read the whole thread, but I think I have a better understanding of what was meant there.

Sorry Laydock, didn't mean for you to have to go through all that nonsense (nobody was reading it at the time). I just find it obnoxious that people will do the ping-pong style quote and then a one-line reply, and do it again. That person was doing it to be spiteful though; he didn't seem to be saying anything worthwhile which is in contrast to your post here - though I still rather revile the format.

Also, Super Laydock still has yet to beat me on saying that Senator Kennedy had no right to voice opposition to the JFK assassination simulator for a few years back (that was a good one).

Modern commercial chickens from these huge industrial farms, don't taste even near as good as
free range ones. Though even those can be tasty.

I agreed and nearly made this same post, except that Udder still wins because the free-range chickens are from more or less the same stock as the industrialized ones. Nobody's out there bothering prairie chickens (or at least they shouldn't be), which is the way I like it.

Chicken is better for me than beef, but it makes me sad because a lot of it can't be eaten. So many bones, and lots is wasted (especially in the production of fillets and McDonalds crap).

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

Must be boring to hate everything. Sucks the fun out of life.

[admith]

Hi!

First of al, I'm from Spain, and I absolutely HATE corridas, bull running, and any kind of torture/killing animals only for entertainment.

That said, I will tell you that Spain is a very old country and some regions here has her own traditions, and sometimes is very difficult to explain this people that killing bulls in a bullring (or bull run, or this kind of shit) is a barbarian tradition, like Colosseum in Rome. We try to convince that these attitudes are intolerable in a modern country at the 21st century, but men... there's no way. Traditions are traditions.

As a example, I will tell you that when the guy who died in the last Pamplona Bull runnings went to the cemetery, his family (all of them were born in Pamplona) said to the reporters that even havind lost her son in a so absurd way, they support the Pamplona tradition.

Really, I don't understand, but traditions are traditions: try to convince a believer that God doesn't exist...

Moreover, in the food bussiness, I have seen animals suffering more than a bull in a bullring, and many times these animals (let's say porks, chickens, gooses, etc.) live their entire lives in a small cage while the bull lived all their lives in freedom, with people taking great care of them, and I ask you... what kind of live is worst?

Certainly, is a difficult question.

[antron]

I took a newspaper that had a picture of that guy getting his nut sack ripped open to the run the next day and smackad a bull on the ass with it. I still have it.

here is a nice cattle slaughter gone wrong video for you:
http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp ... &Player=wm
remember, stuff like this happens all the time, and that cow has NO chance of killing those guys like a bull does a runner or fighter.

[Super Laydock]

Must be boring to hate everything.

indeed

Sucks the fun out of life.

sure.

but what has that got to do with this topic?

Nothing.

@Antron: doing something more wrong doesn´t make something less wrong any better.

[antron]

@Antron: doing something more wrong doesn´t make something less wrong any better.

you have that backwards. the slaughterhouse is worse.

are you a vegetarian? did you know they eat the bulls after a fight?

[Specineff]

If the bulls were running on their own without people in front of them, would it still be considered animal abuse?

With all this talk about bulls and chickens, I am so in the mood for a beef-and-chicken taco platter.

[antron]

If the bulls were running on their own without people in front of them, would it still be considered animal abuse?

they brutally kill the bulls in the end, but they do have a small chance to kill the fighters (I saw one matador make a mistake and then run for his life - Go Bulls!!!). I have heard that if a bull fights hard enough they let it live out it's days in a pasture.

Now which would you take? This, or that machine in the video above?