Twilight Refrain & Doujin Shooters Recommendations...

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Twilight Refrain & Doujin Shooters Recommendations...

Post by ST Dragon »

I noticed these two Doujin Shooter: Twilight Refrain & TWilight INSanity

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How well do they compete to Imperishable Night, The Embodiment of Scarlet Devil, Perfect Cherry Blossom, and Mountain of Faith which I quite enjoyed and are they made by the same producers "Team Shanghai Alice"
Or even to to fully commercial shooters like Shikigami No Shiro series & Esp.Rade?

I've read that there is also a prequel TWilight INSanity.. How good is that too?

Some videos on Youtube, give me the impression that level design & graphics are very reparative with minimal variation on the background graphics. Music is very good in Twilight Refrain but a bit on the annoying side for TWilight INSanity.
Do they work on English WinXp PRO with Asian Language pack installed?

Are they worth buying?

Thanks in advance.
Last edited by ST Dragon on Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Observer »

Personally, I would say Twilight INSanity (damn this weird capitalisation) is ok. RefrAIN is a vast improvement on all fields (especially the music, but you might as well just get the OST, Melancholy of Dynast) sans the artwork. Character portraits are disastrous and have little resemblance to human shapes. They try to be 'cute' and elaborated and shit but it just doesn't cut it for me. For cuteness overload you have Trouble Witches...

However, I felt the whole thing was a bit subpar, boring and uninspired (grotesquely generic and unimposing enemies, bosses whose attacks have an "I saw this before, and done better" feeling, etc.) People complain Touhou games are slow but I felt this on was slower, even if some bullet patterns were quite fast :P

The system indeed borrows and deepens what you saw in Imperishable Night, forcing you to switch between twins quite a lot. It gets rid of the life system, replacing it by a spirit bar tied to your score and once it runs out, it's game over. It also adds a ring and a path system depending on how well you play, also affecting your score. This will also change the ending you can get for the different twins. Check the game thread lurking around, it has more info.

You are not that wrong about the repetitiveness either.

Well, some people liked RefrAIN but after spending a while with the trial I recall I changed my order and ended up buying PriZhm. It doesn't look pretty, it's not that long, it's way more 'basic' but I enjoyed it thoroughly (and you might too if you like horis on steroids and bullet patterns synchronised to techno punchi punchi music).

In short: not worth buying. Either pick RefleX (10 years of development... perhaps you already picked this one) or wait for C76 and the renewed eXceed 3rd JADE PENETRATE BLACK PACKAGE with a lot more loli pr0n and mecha. Besides the silly name, the remake looks damn promising.
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Post by ST Dragon »

eXceed3rd-JADE PENETRATE-BLACK PACKAGE (Trailer - Stage 1)
You mean this?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGa_2IKmkUk

The weapons & bullet paterns look awesome, but the level it self has even less variation than Twilight Refrain & TWilight INSanity and looks insanely repetitive!

As for Prizhm:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fkZLYhn ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNA2JHym ... re=related

The levels look nicely designed and varied. The weapons look cool (copied from DoDonPachi ;) ), however there seems to be minimal animation on the bosses and their explosion looks pitiful. I mean you must have huge explosion when the Boss dies! ;)
I think I should try it before I buy this.

C76 ?
I searched for info in this shmup, but found none?! Is that how ti's spelled?

Oh and what is this crazy Shmup?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ2vJRgU ... re=related

By the way, I was hoping if one could help in directing me to a place where I could buy Reflex & Kamui, preferable new.

Thanks in advance.
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Post by Observer »

heh, you might as well check Diadra Empty too. More hori goodness. White Canvas might still have copies.

Regarding eXceed 3rd, I'll wait for the full thing to come up to pass final judgement but yeah, it might be close to the Twins series in term of repetitiveness. It kinda deals with that by having a much better enemy design. I mean, at least you don't have to shoot boxes and barrels. At that rate I would rather gun down the fairies on steroids from Touhou or stick to Armed Police Batrider.

As for RefleX, I think both Paletweb and Himeyashop still had copies left? Else, try White Canvas too. For Kamui, not so sure. SFKhoa had a copy but it seems it was a bitch to get one.

For PriZhm, the trial has up to stage 2, which is quite good (especially on Hard/Very Hard due to the tight synchrony) but things get better from stage 3 onwards (without mentioning the stage 3 is awesome as hell). Stage 4 has some nice effects and Stage 5 is a gigantic mindfuck worth of Metal Black (and I think it probably is doing a tribute to Taito at some points). The game also has a strategy thread here. I think both Palet and Himeya still have it.

Agreed about the explosions. Needs more chaos but if you played previous games from ReZetia (like Zillion Beatz), they are all like that.

As for the last video, that's SUPER MATE MATE LASER (all in caps, also called "SMML") and it's a freeware/test Seihou game where you play as the professor/old dude who created VIVIT, the robo-maid everyone loves. But let's talk about the mechanics, why would we want stories in our schmukmups: fans of the Ray series, Panzer Dragoon, Omega Boost a& Co. rejoice! Lock-on guided laser missiles madness+combos+medalling. And barrages worth of Samidare plus a turbo system borrowed from Diadra Empty (it makes you invulnerable for a couple of seconds, also like the 'level up' from Psyvariar 2 as it damages enemies). Check the link I put in the video to retrieve it (says: "C75").

At this rate, I think you'll have to change the thread to: "recommend me doujin shooters" or see if there is a similar thread around to bump it.

Last note: "C76" is not a shooter, lol. It's "Comiket Nº76" (which will occur in august), a japanese convention/gathering-of-weirdos where doujin devs release and sell their stuff. Happens twice a year, during summer (august) and winter (december).
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Post by ST Dragon »

heh, you might as well check Diadra Empty too. More hori goodness. White Canvas might still have copies.
You mean this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv6Ww1cti4I

It looks great! Is it a Euro Shmup? By the looks of it, it must have the option to set the resolution pretty high up and probably even features AA or some interpolation filter like an emu?
But this Left-Right direction movement reminds me too much of Fantasy Zone (Arcades) & Uridium 2 on the AMIGA which I was not very fond of!
I'll be sure to try it though...

This Boss Fight looks awesome!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFD1YnyF ... re=related

Else, try White Canvas too. For Kamui, not so sure. SFKhoa had a copy but it seems it was a bitch to get one.
Please excuse my ignorance, but I could not find online shops called: "White Canvas" or "SFKhoa"?!
Could you please provide me with the direct links?
At this rate, I think you'll have to change the thread to: "recommend me doujin shooters" or see if there is a similar thread around to bump it.
Good idea... ;)
Last note: "C76" is not a shooter, lol. It's "Comiket Nº76" (which will occur in august), a japanese convention/gathering-of-weirdos where doujin devs release and sell their stuff. Happens twice a year, during summer (august) and winter (december).
Sounds interesting, does it only take place in Japan and have you ever participated in one?

Thanks for all the cool info!
Last edited by ST Dragon on Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by LtC »

eXceed3rd-JADE PENETRATE-BLACK PACKAGE
This is not a bad game but just by judging by the demo the original eXceed3rd Jade penetrade is a lot better than this. eXceed2nd - VAMPIRE REX is even better game though, it uses the same polarity system as ikaruga, though the chaining system in it is nowhere near frustration but really easy to use.
Prizhm
This game looks a lot like CAVE stuff. The difference is that the bullet hitboxes are bigger than CAVE uses. You'll end up dying a lot just because of that. Not a very fun game to play in the end, same with Zillion Beatz.
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Post by Observer »

ST Dragon wrote:ST Dragon's post
About Diadra Empty, it's a japanese shooter and, yes, it is inspired by Fantasy Zone, although elevated to unforeseen levels.

http://www.h7.dion.ne.jp/~icewind/yuki- ... etode3.htm

It has also been receiving several patches that fixed a lot of things, as well as adding new content, especially two new chapters to an already quite long Extra Level. The trial is version 0.92, useful but the game changed a whole damn lot, especially on the bullet patterns and enemy formations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3L12obnP34 (the infamous Extra Level Chapter 5, aka, EX5)

It can take a while to get used to the game but it's damn awesome. Obviously, not for everyone. Just like Hellsinker or Samidare.

SFKhoa is a user at this very forums, not a store. :wink: Although he does sell some stuff now and then. White Canvas is a japanese doujin store that carries international orders. You could also PM Elixir for more info on how to get some of these elusive shooters.

http://www.w-canvas.com <<< (sadly, Diadra Empty appears to be out of stock here... don't lose your hopes as I guess icewind —author of the game— will probably bring more copies for this Comiket 76)

I sadly did not went to any Comiket yet but it's on my plans after I finish my master and I can save more money.

PriZhm can be an acquired taste. It suffers a bit due to the hitbox deal but I liked the experimentation with the patterns and music.

If you want to check another Cave tribute, be sure to download Patriot Dark. It's a fusion of DoDonPachi, Ketsui and Espgaluda and, most importantly, it's great.

http://temperancelance.orz.hm/ (Site of the devs)
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Post by ST Dragon »

You have an excellent knowledge on Doujin shooters!

I was wondering if you could offer objective opinions on the following Doujin shooters and whether they're worth buying?.

Armed Seven (Astro Port)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJPeaf_YopE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyHnOeEx ... re=related

This looks like a SNES game. Specifically, a combination of Cybernator, Arrow Flash & Phalanx, with some very impressive explosions indeed!
The two Bosses are not that impressive. A bit lacking and uninspiring in the animation department, but overall it looks like a goood game.
Is that the actual in game music by the way? It sounds like a Mexican Cowboy film! ;)

Most of all, I love the quote at the end of the 1st video (2:10):
Because a mechanical, 2000lb lance is just fucking badass!
:lol: :D
Is that a weapon upgrade by the way?


Ake-Bre (Ohbado)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJIED26i ... re=related

This level reminds me of Ikaruga and the FMV stages from Nova Storm (Especially the battle with that black battle ship at the end)
Excellent graphics.

But this Boss is just laughable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4FazqCTdCw

I also noticed that you can choose which way to shoot like Fantasy Zone, but not the scrolling its self. How well does that work here?

So, overall how good is this shooter?


Rayging Blue's -Conflict Warred (Section S)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nALsATCGnUU

Music sounds quite good, sprites seem to be nicely animated but the backgrounds look some what minimalistic. Interestingly, there is a level where you fly the ship from Kamui & even the music & sfx sound just like it!
Weird!

Acceleration of Suguri (Orange Juice])

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MjMJKIaCnA

I noticed this cool looking Arena shooter. It must be very fun battling against your mates.
Does it play as good as it looks?


Die Feen (Nekomimi no Kakera)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-KIyKkJBzc

Seems to be nicely designed, but the music & sfxare quite annoying.


Exceed 3rd -Jade Penetrate- (Tennen Sozai)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZqRaRLMDXw

Weapons, Bombs & explosions look great, but the levels seem very repetitive.


Genso Shoujo (Tenku Dokei)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EFY5olOPFk

Is this Cute Em Up any good? So, cute it’ll make you puke?! ;)
Again minimal to no animation on the Bosses.


Gundemonium Recollection (Platine Dispositif)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tks6AZzu4Qo

Another bullet-hell horizontal shooter? Nice levels but the sprites are huge!
The Boss music sounds cool & frenetic!


Samidare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hps4X9_f4k

Very interesting bullet patterns indeed. Exactly what is it that you're controlling, a space ship or a witch on a broom?

Patriot Dark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTOYaZSBX3Y

This is obviously a Cave clone and it looks great. The music is a bit dull though.
Is this game actually complete or is it in the Demo stage?

Phantasm ([Flat)

I could not find any YouTube videos on this.
How good is it?
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Post by ST Dragon »

I was expecting/hoping for a bit more feed-back, thoughts & opinions on
these Doujin shooters that I linked above, from our more knowledgable forum members here... :(

A confused fellow shmuper needs help... ;)

Thanks in advance.
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Post by SFKhoa »

Observer wrote: SFKhoa is a user at this very forums, not a store.
:lol:
Sorry, ST Dragon.
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Post by ST Dragon »

Ah, so you're the notorious mobile online store everybody has been talking about? :lol:
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Post by SFKhoa »

Pfffttttt, you wish. I'm just an everyday shmupper. I just happen to sell stuff every now and then.
Anyway, I'm surprised no one has mentioned Bike Banditz yet, it's a pretty solid game.
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Post by Observer »

SFKhoa wrote:Pfffttttt, you wish. I'm just an everyday shmupper. I just happen to sell stuff every now and then.
Anyway, I'm surprised no one has mentioned Bike Banditz yet, it's a pretty solid game.
Agreed. I don't like it myself a lot but it's a neat game. lol, mobile store. I think I'll drop you a PM sooner or later for soem doujin goodness. Shipping from the same continent is always a good thing... Less murderous to my devaluated pocket.

ST Dragon. Here comes the big, long reply:

Let's see. Armed 7 also owns a lot to Turrican and all those cool mechs of old that we no longer see around. Personally, I liked the trial but never got around purchasing it. Might be worth a shot.

Samidare is, in few words, a fucking must. Vicious as hell, remorseless, relentless. And the extra stage is nothing short of insane. You pilot a ship there but the pilots are some sort of genetically modified girls and what not. Typical late 2000 fodder and what we expect to see nowadays. No more Proco & Tiat or Iceman from Batsugun. But, really, if you can find it at its japanese price like I did (525 yen if I'm not wrong) you won't regret it. The witch on a broom you saw is the final extra stage boss... pity you got spoiled that. That's VIVIT, the robo-maid from the Seihou series.

Ake-Bure or "generic loli/boob fest" is an extremely confusing, annoying horizontal shooter made by OHBADO (responsible of the neat Touhou Gensou Rensa, a versus game with a kickass arranged OST) with a horrible hitbox, a silly gimmicky feature (the giant iron ball) and stupid enemies. Not to be taken seriously I guess. I didn't like this one at all. I thought the graphics looked fine because they have a mass of filtering and blurs and shiny lights on top of them to cope for the textureless models :P I would rather play Ether Vapor and the glorious Cloudpobia, which indeed I ended up doing.

Oh, and the voice acting is downright annoying. If you could barely stand Reco in Mushihime, this one will drive you insane.

Personally, not worth it, let alone at the prices I saw it (24 to 28usd???).

Rayging Blues: an ok game that tries to pull of a "meeting" of many ships from other doujin shooters but it gets quite inconsistent. Not good, not bad. Just average and the artwork will make you laugh. It's like a bad VN with those generic schoolgirl outfits and... cat ears? WTF? Where is all that old 80s heavy metal leather and the silly co-pilots talking about the size of those huge battleships???

Worth a shot anyway. Beware, for the patches you'll need a CD key that comes with the game. (it's on the case apparently)

Suguri series: won't enter in detail. Never played it so I can't judge it but it looks quite badass. A friend keeps telling me how awesome they are. Check 'em just in case?

Die Feen: No idea. In-game looks nice but 3D poser-like attrocities for art is scary. Didn't play it to tell the truth.

Exceed series: we mentioned these ones earlier. Funny series, but a bit too repetitive indeed.

Platine Dispositif stuff is quite daring, offering different things most of the time. Elixir will probably come to give more info. I only really played Hitogata Happa and it's quite awesome. The music is nice as well. Only problem is that many of the dolls are quite inbalanced.

Patrior Dark: I posted the link above. DOWNLOAD NOW. (in caps) Indeed, it's amazing. You can replace the "dull music" everyone hates.

For more doujins, you could really try Exception (http://i-saint.skr.jp), Diadra Empty, Hellsinker (http://sanagimaru.nobody.jp), Radio Zonde and Siter Skain stuff (Kamui+RefleX). All are damn nice. Special mention to Siter Skain and Hellsinker because many of the enemies and bosses there have cool animations (Scarlet Queen, Glorious Symbol, this game also has some of the most awesome boss names ever, as well as THE definitive boss warnings*). Diadra Empty bosses tend to have glows, they are enormous and imposing, with heavily organic and Cave-like patterns and many of the enemies are also animated.

Phantasm seems to be a hybrid between a shooter and a visual novel. What little I played showed the same issues you are pointing out (badly animated bosses, awful music and sprites, etc.)


*WARNING. NOW REACHES THE FATAL ATTRACTION BE DESCRIBED AS "HELLSINKER". DECIDE DESTINATION.

*WARNING. AN AWESOME PRAYER IS CONFLICT WITH US. KEEP YOUR DIGNITY.

It doesn't get better than that.
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Post by ST Dragon »

Wow, cool!
Thanks for the info!


So, out of all the Toho Project - Project Shrine Maiden shooters.
Which is the best objectively??
Graphics, music, game play, weapons?

The Embodiment of Scarlet Devil [2002]
Perfect Cherry Blossom [2003]
Imperishable Night [2004]
Phantasmagoria of Flower View [2005]
Shoot the Bullet [2005]
Mountain of Faith [2007]
Subterranean Animism [2008]
Undefined Fantastic Object [2009]
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Post by Observer »

I was writing you a mega long post but most of it is just a digestion (or an indigestion) of my experiences and what everyone else commented. I decided to keep it short.

For the replay value, content, scoring mechanics, complexity, music, graphics and overall pacing, I think Imperishable Night is the best.

It's closely followed by EoSD for the simple scoring (grazegrazegraze, don't die, no visible hitbox) and PCB (cherry meter, borders, Extra Stage and Phantasm)/Mountain of Faith (bomb, bomb, bomb, missiles away). Then comes Subterranean Animism (more grazing and brutal spellcards, it's really hard and frustrating, one death can pretty much ruin your entire run, not that it doesn't happen in the others but it hurts the most here).

Phantasmagoria of Flower View is a versus shooter so I put it separated from the rest. It's like Twinkle Star Sprites and it's good though not great.

Shoot the Bullet is regarded as the most creative (I call it the Fatal Frame/Project Zero of the shooters) but also the hardest.

Undefined Fantastic Object isn't out yet. Comes out during Comiket 76 in August and from the trial, it's interesting. Final judgement will come whenever I can put my claws on it.
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Post by ST Dragon »

Observer wrote:I was writing you a mega long post but most of it is just a digestion (or an indigestion) of my experiences and what everyone else commented. I decided to keep it short..
Oh no, please feel free to post it.
I really enjoy reading long & interesting threads! :)

For the replay value, content, scoring mechanics, complexity, music, graphics and overall pacing, I think Imperishable Night is the best.

It's closely followed by EoSD for the simple scoring (grazegrazegraze, don't die, no visible hitbox) and PCB (cherry meter, borders, Extra Stage and Phantasm)/Mountain of Faith (bomb, bomb, bomb, missiles away). Then comes Subterranean Animism (more grazing and brutal spellcards, it's really hard and frustrating, one death can pretty much ruin your entire run, not that it doesn't happen in the others but it hurts the most here).

Phantasmagoria of Flower View is a versus shooter so I put it separated from the rest. It's like Twinkle Star Sprites and it's good though not great.

Shoot the Bullet is regarded as the most creative (I call it the Fatal Frame/Project Zero of the shooters) but also the hardest.

Undefined Fantastic Object isn't out yet. Comes out during Comiket 76 in August and from the trial, it's interesting. Final judgement will come whenever I can put my claws on it.
After trying all the above (with exception of the last 3), I decided to buy Imperishable Night & Perfect Cherry Blossom.
How ever I noticed that in all Toho Project - Project Shrine Maiden games, the cover art is very minimalistic & poor .
Do these packages feature at least a nice manual with cool Manga or some kind of an art book, or a printed CD to justify the cost?

Cover art & flyers is very important in my book, especially when spending my hard earned cash on games. Otherwise what's the point in buying them when there is nothing else of interest in the package?
Software costs nothing to download and is easily available, so when I pay, I want the package to be nice at least.
Last edited by ST Dragon on Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Observer »

Sadly, only the Touhou fighters and the music CDs (SWR OST, IaMP OST, Retrospective 53 Minutes and Magical Astronomy if I'm not wrong) come with manuals and stuff like that. The CDs cases all come with the usual japanese trait, that is, the obi. lol, and I thought the covers (all except EoSD) were a bit too overloaded and detailed... Well, they feature trippy Taito-inspired colours. Needs moar surreal mecha fishes though.

Can't remember but I think Phantasmagoria of Flower View has a manual too.

Time to do some lame photoshow. I'm linking you to the two covers (PCB+IN) scanned by me in a bigger res and pictures of the inside of both games. Nothing like big res blurry pictures from a lame camera. PCB is really quite more worked and neat I guess. IN is darker.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v365/Wyrm/img300.jpg (1861x922, I never noticed PCB said: "Shooting game of GHASTRY dream", awesome engrish and that IN said: "Shooting game in dark side of the Paradise")
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v365/Wyrm/img301.jpg (PCB, inside)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v365/Wyrm/img302.jpg (IN, inside: the flash screwed this one)

Many doujin games tend to come barebones. Guess it saves costs. After all, these are all indie/amateur creations and they are sold for cheap (1480yen, 525 in the case of Samidare, although now prices might be going up a bit as newer shooters are costing 1.8k yen or so). The manuals tend to come in html form. Sometimes the disc itself contains goodies. Ether Vapor has the manual inside the DVD case but comes with the OST for free and a midi version of it. Glorious to say the least. Samidare does the same. All the music is in ogg format. Exception features the music both in ogg and in audio CD if I'm not wrong. Kamui too (I think, not sure here better ask SFKhoa).

I think if you buy Subterranean Animism at Palet you get a little neat postcard (I got it when I purchased it last year). Same thing if you buy it at Melonbooks, although that implies going to Japan or using those deputy services. And rest assured postcards or things like that will be offered with the release of Touhou 12.

Non-shooter related but for the artsy stuff, you might want to add Perfect Memento in Strict Sense or Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red. Those are the artbooks of Touhou, come with a music CD and are gorgeous. Else, you have the two volumes of the "Three Mischievous Fairies", also come with music CDs and the artwork is quite awesome as well.

That or you could get Scarlet Wheather Rhapsody+OST. The game comes with a manual, one of the softest CD printings I've seen and the OST (2 discs by the way) manual is a precious tripod thing.


Hope this helps a bit.
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Post by ST Dragon »

Yes thank you!
The printed CDs look nice. They should have made similar covers for all their games.

Ether Vapor?
I had tried a trial version of this game 1.5years ago. It combined elements from Thunder Force V & Philosoma & the cool missile barrages from Macross. The 1st 2 levels looked excellent, but the Bosses didn't have any textures in the trial. Especially one of the later bosses, a huge flying mech thing with a gun turret like a tank, which looked quite lame, had no textures and was poorly animated.

When was the full version released and how good is it? Graphics, music, gameplay, packaging? Also were there rich textures added to the bosses and when can one buy a copy?
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Post by ST Dragon »

So, I tried most of the above mentioned Doujin shooters (with an exception of Ake-Bre (could not find), Genso Shoujo (could not find), PriZhm (could not find), Cloud Phobia (could not find), Gundemonium Recollection (Refused to start on my rig))

My main gripe about most of these Doujin shooters, is concentrated on the following aspects:

1. The fact that there is minimal to no variation in the level design. In most occasions each level consists of just one endlessly scrolling background sprite or one 3D scene (Exceed 3rd -Jade Penetrate, Toho Project - Project Shrine Maiden series, etc...)

2. In-game enemies and bosses are very poorly drawn and have little to no animation (shooting barrels, spheres, circular objects and tiny simply designed fairies, becomes monotonous very quickly) Twilight Refrain & TWilight INSanity comes to mind...

3. Gameplay relies primarily on extreme bullet storm tactics, aimed for specific players with acquired tastes and not for casual shmup players.

However, there were some great aspects in most Doujin shooters:

1. Excellent music sound tracks that rival if not excel a lot of commercial shooters

2. Weapons are very powerful, explosions and effects look very pleasing, providing overall the pleasure of total mayhem and destruction. (Shooters without devastating weapons & huge chaotic explosions are.. well.. a novel ;) )

Some exceptions are:

Cloud Phobia (Have not tried it yet, but based on screen shots & youtube it looks excellent)
Ether Vapor
Kamui
Reflex
Trouble Witches

These look, feel and play just like fully commercial shooters, with excellent enemy/boss designs, large varied levels, superb music tracks and awesome/devastating weapons & explosions.
Observer wrote:Samidare is, in few words, a fucking must. Vicious as hell, remorseless, relentless
Yeah you're right about that, as I discovered with the hard way! :lol:
I got my ass handed to me right from the start and couldn't get past the 2nd level boss! ;)

The only thing missing, is a bomb like Raiden. That shield which absorbs and fires back bullets, is primarily an offensive weapon rather than an emergency shoot N' forget bomb.
I'll be sure to give it a 2nd try though...

So, what else is there worth trying?
Last edited by ST Dragon on Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by LtC »

ST Dragon wrote:So, what else is there worth trying?
Meglilo. Definately worth playing. Warp system instead of bombs.
eXceed2nd- VR if you already haven't tried. Polarity system.
Blue Sabers games (Mainly OOH). Not exactly the best games ever but they have some unique gameplay elements making them pretty interesting.


Here's some more if you already haven't seen this (Download links included for trial versions).
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Post by Observer »

ST Dragon wrote:ST Dragon's Post
Glad you liked Samidare. And wait till you unlock Extra Stage (you have to 1cc the game but SMDx00 is a pain in the rear).

I also get what you mean regarding the Touhou series and the others. However, what the others suffer might be a consequence of getting too 'inspired' on Touhou and actually doing it wrong. Since 2003, ZUN's logo spoke about "whenever it rotate, pattern changes like KAREIDOscope" (sic). What I get from this hilariously engrishy phrase is that the 'summum' of the game (looking above the mechanics, which are already complex) is the complexity of the bullet patterns. Not just the spellcards as many want to portray. You see some mid-stage patterns that are a sight to behold... but sometimes a chore to navigate through.

Check Shoot the Bullet as it's all about majestically brutal bullet patterns and milliseconds shoots to cancel 'em out. Speed and difficulty is also increased.

As for those you couldn't try, I'll direct you to the sites.

For Cloudphobia: http://www.dwahan.net/Marsbound/cloudphobia/ (everything, the trial, patch, links to buy it, all) This game it's not without its flaws but it has what you want: awesome backgrounds (check Stage 3: Gregorian Chants+Orchestra+Starships shooting missile barrages and mechas, it doesnt get better than that, it's a pity the stage is so short!!!)

Ether Vapor: http://edelweiss.skr.jp/works/ethervapor/index.html (you might wanna check Fairy Bloom Freesia, not a shooter but a little, neat action game that looks promising the more it gets polished)

Regarding Ether Vapor: everything got better textures for the final release (ok, let's not dream, it doesn't have 4000x3000 textures but stuff looks nicer) and the effects were all tuned to look great too. I somewhat feel that, with more budget for the textures and perhaps more time for increased animations on some backgrounds this would've kicked TFVI ass all around. Especially on the Macross-like missile barrages and the final boss. I'm still glad there was a TFVI (STG project).

PriZhm: http://rezet.rdy.jp/rezetia/index9.html (don't be fooled by the trial, it's quite good and once you get to stage 3 you'll see the backgrounds take a trippy route, none of them is similar to the previous, they are also all synchronised to the music... like you'll notice on Stage 4 where the background goes Silent Hill and the barrages get crazy, yes, sorry for the spoiler but it's too awesome to let it pass) Paletweb still has it if I'm not wrong (checked yesterday).

Ake-Bre: argh...

Ok, here you go: http://park14.wakwak.com/~ohba/akn/ (my god, look at that cover, I mean, it's like one of those bad 26 ep animes often sold as "creative"... In fact, I would totally expect this to become an anime like that other Nanoha thing)

As for Gensou Shoujo... No idea where to find it. Sorry.

Kamui and RefleX are indeed great. And look forward for Alltynex2nd. More pew pew and missiles.

You are forgetting Radio Zonde, Hellsinker and Diadra Empty :P Let me enligthen ya. The last two contain what you might like: furious backgrounds, animated enemies and more. In fact, Hellsinker has a bit too much of animated stuff, reaching crazy levels of awesomeness to the point where it (literally) breaks the interface towards the end.

Radio Zonde: (vector link) http://www.vector.co.jp/soft/win95/game/se313786.html

Check the site too, scroll all the way down for a patch for this game: http://wls.hp.infoseek.co.jp/prod.html

Hellsinker: http://sanagimaru.nobody.jp/c72.html

Diadra Empty: http://www.h7.dion.ne.jp/~icewind/yuki- ... etode3.htm (the trial is a bit old and the latest version is vicious as hell now, ie: on Stage 2 you already get attacked by an army of 80+ minidragons, it also runs far smoother and faster)

Hope these help.

Agreed on Meglilo. I'm not a fan of its aesthetics at all but the mechanics are quite interesting. eXceed 2nd is Ikaruga-meets-yelling-lolis (seriously, nothing pisses me off more than those annoying high-pitched screeches) with some nices robotos now and then.
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Post by ST Dragon »

Ok so I tried the remaining Doujin shooters you recommended:

Samidare:
You can only unlock Extra mode by 1ccing the game?!
That’s one demanding task indeed! ;)
Not sure if I’ll manage it… ;)

Ether Vapor:
I reached up the stage 3 city that looks identical to Albion DU from RayStorm and fought the end level Bosses.

What I liked:
Very impressive and vividly animated backgrounds, cool lens flares, reach explosions, detailed and varied enemies & Bosses.
Music albeit nice, was not as catchy as the rest of the Doujin shooters; I would say it is on par with the Thunder Force VI sound track, but it does its job nicely.

What I did not like:
The bulky looking 2nd level Mech Boss with the huge gun turret and the drill on its head. It looks quite silly and unconvincing when it starts “walking” in mid air and charges at you, similarly to the huge surfing Mech in Contra Shattered soldier on the PS-2.

Weapons did not feel that powerful enough. Specifically, the fact that you can’t choose which target to shoot with the lock-on RayStom lasers, renders them inadequate & unreliable to deal with a lot of situations.

The missile barrage in Level one was just a graphical show-case for the Macross fans and has not impact to the game play. Even if you don’t shoot down the approaching missiles, they’ll completely miss you!

Hellsinker:
I did not like the game play in this game and seems that it’s aimed for acquired tastes. Some enemies just take too many shots to kill, switching between weapons was troublesome and those circular borders surrounding those seal powerups , I don’t understand their purpose in a manic shooter like this? Again background graphics consisted of 1-2 endlessly scrolling 3D sprites.

Radio Zonde
This shooter probably has the most detailed and most nicely animated enemy sprites with excellent rotation; of all Doujin shooters I’ve tried (With Cho Ren Sha 68K a close 2nd) that can even rival a lot of commercial shooters.

I specifically liked the 6th level boss! Awesome animation, cool attack patterns and impressive weapons!

Image

What I did not like, is that once you finish a level, you have to choose the next from the game menu, thus eliminating the element of “progression”.

Also the two “cute” boy/girl player sprites look silly and don’t fit well with the rest of the shooter oriented spaceship sprites.

Shoot the Bullet
Arrgh…
Sorry, taking photos of Bosses to eliminate their bullets and attacks is not my way of having fun. ;)
This is definitely a very acquired taste!

Diadra Empty
At first my 1st go, I didn’t quite like the gameplay mechanics. I was never a fan of Fantasy Zone, “one large level” or multi directional / Arena shooters. (With an exception of Thunder Force II & Granada)
However, Graphics, weapons, music, backgrounds are very impressive indeed!
I’ll give it a 2nd go though ;)


Ake-Bre
I was quite impressed by this games graphics. Over all it looks very impressive, probably the best looking of all the Doujin shooters I tried. The sprites remind me of The Mega Man series (1st level boss is wearing the infamous yellow construction workers helmet from Mega Man) and the music seems to be heavily inspired by the Mega Man X series, as I can easily isolate a few tunes that sound very similar.
I never managed to get the hang of that huge chained ball, so I relied on the primary weapons instead which were powerful enough and explosions quite impressive.
Background graphics were very well designed, animated and varied and the sprites looked as if they were cell-shaded, which is an interesting combination with 3D backgrounds.

I was also very impressed by Cho Ren Sha 68K. I see this was released in 1998, but was this a Doujin shooter or a fully commercial game? It sure looks, plays & sounds excellent! The animation, rotation of the enemies and bosses is awesome, fire power is very effective & pleasing and the cool techno/rave level & Boss music is exactly what I want to hear from this type of shooter.
My only gripe is the background, again ;) I reached quite far into the game, but I did not notice much change in the background. It looks like you’re flying over a futuristic military base, a mechanical city like in Matrix or inside a huge Bernal Sphere. What ever it is, its sure is the longest of its kind ;)

Prizhm
This one Borrows quite a few elements from Cave shooters (as you all ready mentioned) and feels like a horizontal DoDonPachi. I would have much rather preferred if you were in control of a ship rather than a flying witch. I loved the 2nd level; the background sea animation with the sun set looked awesome! Weapons were very satisfying but the 2 Bosses I battled were not very impressive wit minimal animation, but they seemed to shake with music’s rhythm.
Also the trial version I tried has invisible enemies, o I can’t really comment on their design.


Cloud Phobia
The trial seems to conflict with my Sidewinder Game pad that is connected to my 2nd Sound Blaster 128 game port. When I start the game, I witness constant pauses and periodic frame drops like hick ups, rendering unplayable. This effect then remains for any other game I try to play after I quite Cloud Phobia and can only be fixed if I enable/disable the 2nd Sound Card.
Exactly the same thing happens with Kamui.
I could only play it with a PS-2 gamepad connected to the pc via an adapter.

Other than that the game looks incredible. Background level graphics, the Mechs, spaceships, everything is very carefully designed with a lot of detailed. The only thing missing, is an impressive sound track. The music sounded very lacking and didn’t quite fit for a Mech shooter. (Especially the Boss music in the 2 stages of the trial version, it sucked imo).
Alltynex2nd.
I tried a demo of this shooter last year and it lookd great, even though a bit more detail should be given in the textures of the sprites. I’m really looking forward to this.

LtC wrote:
ST Dragon wrote:So, what else is there worth trying?
Meglilo. Definately worth playing. Warp system instead of bombs.
eXceed2nd- VR if you already haven't tried. Polarity system.
Blue Sabers games (Mainly OOH). Not exactly the best games ever but they have some unique gameplay elements making them pretty interesting.

Here's some more if you already haven't seen this (Download links included for trial versions).
I’ll be sure to try those. Thanks a lot!

To sum it up, I was mostly impressed by Kamui & Reflex.
They’re definitely the more solid shooters at the moment and look more like console/arcade games than PC.

Any more recommendations, please keep them coming ;)
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Re: Twilight Refrain & Doujin Shooters Recommendations...

Post by lgb »

Just wait 'til you see Samidare Extra, if you haven't done so already.

There are some modes in Radio Zonde where you go through stages in order. There's a topic somewhere in Strategy that explains more (check the score thread too, we have one). Radio Zonde has a loooot of stuff to check out.

As for Cho Ren Sha, I think it actually came out in 1995. It was originally a X68000 game that was ported to Windows in 1998? Sounds reasonable.
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Re: Twilight Refrain & Doujin Shooters Recommendations...

Post by ST Dragon »

lgb wrote:Just wait 'til you see Samidare Extra, if you haven't done so already..
No I haven't, thanks for mentioning it.
By the way, how many stages all together is the original Samidare? I couldn't defeat the 3rd stage Boss... :(
There are some modes in Radio Zonde where you go through stages in order. There's a topic somewhere in Strategy that explains more (check the score thread too, we have one). Radio Zonde has a loooot of stuff to check out..
I'll try that stuff in Radio Zonde thanks!
As for Cho Ren Sha, I think it actually came out in 1995. It was originally a X68000 game that was ported to Windows in 1998? Sounds reasonable.
Yeah that sounds pretty reasonable. I too read somewhere that it was originally made for the X68000 but, I haven't verified this claim.
Finding the actual X86000 Rom and trying it on an emu should solve this matter ;)
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Re: Twilight Refrain & Doujin Shooters Recommendations...

Post by Kaspal »

ST Dragon wrote:
lgb wrote:Just wait 'til you see Samidare Extra, if you haven't done so already..
No I haven't, thanks for mentioning it.
By the way, how many stages all together is the original Samidare? I couldn't defeat the 3rd stage Boss... :(
There are some modes in Radio Zonde where you go through stages in order. There's a topic somewhere in Strategy that explains more (check the score thread too, we have one). Radio Zonde has a loooot of stuff to check out..
I'll try that stuff in Radio Zonde thanks!
As for Cho Ren Sha, I think it actually came out in 1995. It was originally a X68000 game that was ported to Windows in 1998? Sounds reasonable.
Yeah that sounds pretty reasonable. I too read somewhere that it was originally made for the X68000 but, I haven't verified this claim.
Finding the actual X86000 Rom and trying it on an emu should solve this matter ;)
if im not mistaken, theres 4-5 levels in samidare for you to beat, and then go to the extra staage, if yoou manage to open it.

that just seem to happen in every other Touhou inspired game... you see it in the seihou series of games, you see it in touhou, and some others... the easier ones in this regard, are the touhou ones, since all you need to unlock the extra levels, is to beat the game with one credit, in any difficulty (that is not the easy one, since this one wont let yo play all the levels)...

another game i dont see mentioned here in the thread is one called Ban Shi Ryuu, similar to touhou, very manic, and with an extra stage that will give you a run for your money.
SuperPang wrote:Where DOJ rapes you, DFK grabs your boob then runs away.
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Re: Twilight Refrain & Doujin Shooters Recommendations...

Post by Observer »

Samidare has 3 stages.

To unlock Extra you need to 1cc them.

Usually, Seihou patterns tend to be incredibly fast, sometimes a bit too fast. You'll see this in Samidare where most stuff gives you a blink to react. And regarding Extra stages, the requirements vary from game to game. Not all let you play it if you 1cc easy. For example, EoSD stop at stage 5 on that setting.

Now that we are mentioning doujins, GENETOS. Download. Now. Amazing. Same deal with Patriot Dark, which is now freeware and it's extremely Cave-like.

Oh, and the upcoming Stella Vanity too. Another Cave worthy candidate with some Espgaluda-like features and an obscenely difficult "super hard" mode called Pandemonium. Actually, I think it's downright ridiculous...
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Re: Twilight Refrain & Doujin Shooters Recommendations...

Post by ST Dragon »

I played a bit through Cloud Phobia today and I have mixed feelings for this shooter. The single stage demo I tried years back, looked excellent. However the final game is ruined by that timer counter. The gameplay seems to be centred on that, instead of the actual shooting or the missile barrages.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge the only other shooter that used a timer was Macross II for the Arcades and it too felt a bit lacking...
Last edited by ST Dragon on Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Twilight Refrain & Doujin Shooters Recommendations...

Post by Observer »

edit2: Replayed it, yeah, the guy took out the options to remove the timer, become invincible and more... There is no time for anything else and you HAVE to beat the stages before the 3' mark.

I feel Cloudphobia was a victim of its own awesomeness and interesting mechanics like the melee mech, comboing, armor/missile/mothership bonuses and refined pew pew. It falls short because of the 'fight fast, don't stop, press the (Omega) boost' mechanic.

Doing the math: 5 stages * less than 3 mins each = less than 15 mins to clear the game.

It's like a brief holy honey drop. Not even Samidare is that short. Wait, actually I think it is but it's so damn hard you don't notice it.

Most shooters have timers, time out, time limits and the likes but the time pressure/pedal-to-the-boost IS the core mechanic, much to our dismay.

Ah, I still love it anyway (my avatar is one of the Cloudphobia mechs... and I somewhat liked the rush/pressure of the timer) but I do hope Marsbound puts a more 'tranquil' shooter. Some people, myself included, are hoping for a Diadra Empty-like game but instead of surreal output, Panzer Dragoon-like creatures and dragons, it would be all manly mecha, huge battleships approaching fast and missile barrages. One can dream and, hopefully, this is the doujin realm so you never know.

edit: Still, I think it's worth the roughly 15 bucks or so. So much crappy stuff is sold at three or four times that price...

Also, for a neat Gradius clone (more like, carbon copy), try looking for Storm Assault. I think it even has Moais now.
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