Mamoru-kun ha norowareteshimatta! (G.Rev, Emphasis on the !)

[Elixir]

Can we at least reserve judgment until I have an opinion of it?

Please.

[Chacranajxy]

This looks stupid...



I was a huge fan of G Rev's DC shmups, but this one... man. I dunno. It looks pretty bad.

Well this is co-developed by G.Rev and Gulti so who knows what was really done by G.Rev and how big their influence was?

Oh, really? I didn't realize that.

Obviously, the important thing is how it plays, but eegads... this is worse than the Death Smiles loli shit.

[E. Randy Dupre]

Why? It's a cute 'em up. What's the problem?

[adversity1]

Hmm, so if you want to like this game, you probably shouldn't watch the score attack on the LE DVD.
Real time 10 minute milking on the 空中庭園 stage, where the player kills the same batch of 5 flying popcorn enemies over and over again, building the counter up to 20k or so. This forms 500 mil or so, 80% of his score for the run, which ends at 614 mil.

Jeez. Once people watch it I think they'll understand but...how embarassing for Grev to put together a DVD where a strategy like this proves to be high scoring. Since the player has to rush through most of the rest of the game just to get time to milk these popcorns for all they're worth, it makes the rest of the game look worthless. True, there's probably a ton of routes through Mamoru-kun, but if this is the one where you can score the most...yikes.

[BulletMagnet]

how embarassing for Grev to put together a DVD where a strategy like this proves to be high scoring. Since the player has to rush through most of the rest of the game just to get time to milk these popcorns for all they're worth, it makes the rest of the game look worthless.

Well, they already made that one boss worth a huge chunk of one's score in Border Down, so it's not like unbalanced scoring is unbeknownst to them...

[dai jou bu]

Can we at least reserve judgment until I have an opinion of it?

Please.

no.

Well, they already made that one boss worth a huge chunk of one's score in Border Down, so it's not like unbalanced scoring is unbeknownst to them...

I've already come to the conclusion that G.Rev either has no idea how to implement a scoring system that doesn't involve the player doing something completely asinine or they're trying to say to people, "STOP PLAYING FOR SCORE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD."

I'm still not sure on what their stance is yet.

[adversity1]

I don't know about the boss milking in Border Down, but the problem in Mamoru-kun seems to be that they have placed infinitely generating enemies in several places. In a game where you control whether the screen scrolls or not that should be an automatic red flag that something's going to go wrong. Even if there's a time limit, if players can milk other levels for time bonuses and then concentrate all their scoring in one spot that makes for a broken game.

I dunno if I will call this broken yet, I want to hear other people's opinions on the DVD. But it sure doesn't tempt me to go for a high score.

[originalz]

Well, I got my copy. I played this game quite a bit in the arcades so I knew what I was getting into, but it's still pretty fun. Heh, I could never hear the music or voices in the arcade, so now I can hear how cute everything is!

[Aru-san]

...they're trying to say to people, "STOP PLAYING FOR SCORE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD."

With the video game industry headed in a no-score direction, I won't be surprised if this is what G.Rev is actually saying to all of us.

[Elixir]

...they're trying to say to people, "STOP PLAYING FOR SCORE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD."

With the video game industry headed in a no-score direction, I won't be surprised if this is what G.Rev is actually saying to all of us.

Is that why they allowed an LE with a high scoring superplay in it?

[Plasmo]

Well, they already made that one boss worth a huge chunk of one's score in Border Down, so it's not like unbalanced scoring is unbeknownst to them...

The third boss is "only" worth approximately 20% of your final score. Border Down is nowhere near unbalanced, it's scoring system is still G.Rev's best and most strategic one imo.

[Taylor]

Hmm, so if you want to like this game, you probably shouldn't watch the score attack on the LE DVD.
Real time 10 minute milking on the 南国 stage, where the player kills the same batch of 5 flying popcorn enemies over and over again, building the counter up to 20k or so. This forms 500 mil or so, 80% of his score for the run, which ends at 614 mil.

Jeez. Once people watch it I think they'll understand but...how embarassing for Grev to put together a DVD where a strategy like this proves to be high scoring. Since the player has to rush through most of the rest of the game just to get time to milk these popcorns for all they're worth, it makes the rest of the game look worthless. True, there's probably a ton of routes through Mamoru-kun, but if this is the one where you can score the most...yikes.

I mentioned this before after watching people play it in Mikado. The thing is, the player and spectators all seemed to love it. Maybe they had just found the trick... or maybe they just enjoy it, I guess.

[Enhasa]

While it sucks to milk milk milk while playing, if you're watching a superplay you can just skip that part.

The milking counting for 80% doesn't make the rest of the game "look worthless." In fact, since the milking is trivial, 100% of the actual scoring play comes from speeding through the rest of it. How good the scoring system is really has to do with how interesting those parts are (which naturally and fortunately, come first). If the milking was twice as lucrative, the game would still play the same way. Or you could just say "fuck it" to the milking and play entirely for speed. IMHO it's better to speedrun than scorerun every manually scrolling shooter anyway. Best case scenario, they're basically the same.

The third boss is "only" worth approximately 20% of your final score. Border Down is nowhere near unbalanced, it's scoring system is still G.Rev's best and most strategic one imo.

Not disagreeing with you at all, I love Border Down and it's in my top 10, but here are their scoring systems:

- a puzzle game where the majority of points come from game-long no-miss stage chaining
- Border Down, where to be fair you are essentially forced to no miss the entire game for max scoring
- a 2p vs game where score attack (which naturally isn't the focus of the game) is based heavily on penultimate stage checkpoint milking (which again means no missing the rest of the game)
- a traditional vert with basically no scoring system during the actual stages, where again for max scoring you are essentially forced to no miss the entire game after suiciding down to your last life at the start
- a manually scrolling shooter with 10 minutes of milking

Wins by default. Also interesting that for some reason their systems are all based either on speedplay, winning as the timer is about to expire, or both.

Now, I still like G.Rev a lot (um ok, just really their first 3 games are awesome), but I like rank-heavy and challenging systems and the first 3 games are highly technical and strategic, and in spite of the crap above. That's a puzzle game, the game with their best scoring system, and a vs game. I think most people just like them because of graphics though (this includes Ikaruga and Gradius V), which is why this game has a poor reception? Well, graphics don't explain why people like Cave, but I guess that's just due to still existing + being better than guys like Milestone. It's obvious few people actually base liking a game on in-depth play (i.e. scoring, speed). Hell, in other genres, people don't even base it on play i.e. survival.

[Plasmo]

- Border Down, where to be fair you are essentially forced to no miss the entire game for max scoring

Actually you have to tactical suicide a lot, but since the deaths are planned, you're of course right - you have to no miss the game. Then again, no missing the whole game for the best score is part of 80% of all newer shmups and imo is a good idea. I agree with you on all of G.Rev's other game's flaws, but Border Down is really balanced and stands out of the rest of the games.
/Off Topic

So what are the exact scores on the Superplay DVD? I'd appreciate it, if someone could maybe post them here? Thanks a lot!

[GaijinPunch]

- Border Down, where to be fair you are essentially forced to no miss the entire game for max scoring

Way to RTFM! They even tell you dying is part of the strategy.

[boagman]

- Border Down, where to be fair you are essentially forced to no miss the entire game for max scoring

Way to RTFM! They even tell you dying is part of the strategy.

Hey, go easy there, Sparky. I own the game, too, but I'm pretty severely limited in that I can't actually read, nor comprehend, the Japanese language. In looking online for a BD manual translation, I couldn't find one.

How would someone like me know this info without ascertaining it on my own through repeated play?

[Ghegs]

How would someone like me know this info without ascertaining it on my own through repeated play?

By reading some of the informative threads the Strategy section has to offer, of course.

[Cthulhu]

Can we at least reserve judgment until I have an opinion of it?

Please.

I tried pleading with people about this long ago. Forums dedicated to a niche genre full of highly dedicated fans are not a place to ask for reason or understanding or patience. The quote I stuck in my sig was from some random thread about a game that hadn't come out yet that was suffering from the same issue and this was many years ago. Equally true today.

[CIT]

I don't know about the boss milking in Border Down, but the problem in Mamoru-kun seems to be that they have placed infinitely generating enemies in several places. In a game where you control whether the screen scrolls or not that should be an automatic red flag that something's going to go wrong. Even if there's a time limit, if players can milk other levels for time bonuses and then concentrate all their scoring in one spot that makes for a broken game.

I dunno if I will call this broken yet, I want to hear other people's opinions on the DVD. But it sure doesn't tempt me to go for a high score.

So what is your score?

I'm wondering if you've been able to replicate the trick in the video. Methinks probably not.

[jpj]

- Border Down, where to be fair you are essentially forced to no miss the entire game for max scoring

Actually you have to tactical suicide a lot, but since the deaths are planned, you're of course right - you have to no miss the game. Then again, no missing the whole game for the best score is part of 80% of all newer shmups and imo is a good idea. I agree with you on all of G.Rev's other game's flaws, but Border Down is really balanced and stands out of the rest of the games.
/Off Topic

for real. even though you do suicide at points, it's all predetermined, with no room for error (unlike garegga and similar games), so it feels very much like a no-miss type of game.

the fact you can treble your score mid-way through the game during a boss fight is a bit unbalanced. but it's a pig to do it right, and you have to do it on your last life. i think that's the difference

[Elixir]

I feel I should comment on this since my initial impressions are still fresh in my head.

First up, man, this game is weird as hell.

Secondly, the loading times are pretty significant, even while it's installed. I did this immediately so I've no idea if it loads longer/shorter (unlikely) prior to installation.

I don't get the scoring system at all. You throw your bomb at enemies and shoot them until they die, while letting go of shot to itadakimasu. That's it?

For some reason they didn't use high res images for yoko at all. Or for any CGs for that matter, which is pretty lame.

Well so far, what little I've played, I like it. Yeah, it's weird and I don't quite get it but it's fun. I don't think I'll be playing this one for a competitive score though. As for presentation of the LE, it's pretty good. More game like this need limited editions that are actually worth it, and I think this one was definitely worth the price (unlike Death Smiles). As for the LE stuff I'll deal with it some other time.

[adversity1]

I don't get the scoring system at all. You throw your bomb at enemies and shoot them until they die, while letting go of shot to itadakimasu. That's it?

No.

You have two types of curse, one that charges up and which you cast on a single medium or large enemy. Any popcorn enemy near that enemy will be cursed as well, and when they are killed you get stars.

The other type of curse, which you don't charge you just throw out in front of you and any enemies passing through it will be cursed->stars. You can also step in this circle to power up and defeat bosses, other harder enemies.

---

CIT, my score is not any good yet. I didn't claim that the endless popcorn enemy grinding in the 空中庭園 stage is necessarily easy to do. It involves crossing under one of the big enemies on the platform so that four or five popcorn fliers constantly respawn. The timing might be tricky. Point is, that is what you would have to do for a good score. And it takes about ten minutes IIRC. That's really boring to me, and actually if that's anyone's idea of a good game I think they have bad taste.

CAVE is criticizable for many things, but at least with DS2 they did an update so that the epic boss milking was fixed. That Grev didn't is a poor decision on their part, especially judging by how badly the arcade version bombed.

[Cthulhu]

I got my copy in today and fired it up for a couple hours. I had actively been avoiding detailed information about the game so I could try it out with a relatively clean slate. The few small pics of the game I had seen made me think the game might not be a normal shmup, and indeed, it's not. I wasn't sure if Kiki Kaikai / Pocky & Rocky, Fixeight, Twinkle Tale, Shock Troopers, Ninja Commando and the like were considered shmups. This one is obviously more shmuppy than the others, but still. I loooooove Kiki Kaikai so this game makes me happy.

But I digress. I'm enjoying the game quite a bit but I don't quite get the timer system yet. I haven't really looked up info on it but it doesn't seem very intuitive. I also don't seem to be getting much extra time out of the fight-the-powered-up-boss-for-extra-time stages. Maybe 45 or 50 seconds extra tops. Hrm. I'm guessing I'm just doing something wrong.

Only real complaint so far: I feel that in a few sections there are bullets that don't stand out much from the background (I think it was on stage 2 with green bullets over green grass, but I might be mistaken). Not a common enough occurrence to really bother me that much though.

Overall, glad I bought this.

[Enhasa]

- Border Down, where to be fair you are essentially forced to no miss the entire game for max scoring

Way to RTFM! They even tell you dying is part of the strategy.

But do tell: what does the cardboard box say?

[PsikyoPshumpPshooterP]

People are afraid to admit that a game is garbage and im so 1337

[Udderdude]

People are afraid to admit that a game is garbage and im so 1337

1337 GET.

[TodayIsForgotten]

I got my copy in today and fired it up for a couple hours. I had actively been avoiding detailed information about the game so I could try it out with a relatively clean slate. The few small pics of the game I had seen made me think the game might not be a normal shmup, and indeed, it's not. I wasn't sure if Kiki Kaikai / Pocky & Rocky, Fixeight, Twinkle Tale, Shock Troopers, Ninja Commando and the like were considered shmups. This one is obviously more shmuppy than the others, but still. I loooooove Kiki Kaikai so this game makes me happy.

But I digress. I'm enjoying the game quite a bit but I don't quite get the timer system yet. I haven't really looked up info on it but it doesn't seem very intuitive. I also don't seem to be getting much extra time out of the fight-the-powered-up-boss-for-extra-time stages. Maybe 45 or 50 seconds extra tops. Hrm. I'm guessing I'm just doing something wrong.

Only real complaint so far: I feel that in a few sections there are bullets that don't stand out much from the background (I think it was on stage 2 with green bullets over green grass, but I might be mistaken). Not a common enough occurrence to really bother me that much though.

Overall, glad I bought this.

I'm enjoying it too. I made the comment that it looked fun and it certainly is. The scoring system may be ganked with the milking but I also enjoyed trigger heart exelica (same concept in ways). I like the whole cursing enemies to get a higher combo. The bosses are pretty tough on maximum difficulty to very tough. So the challenge curve is there. If you just play the game it is enjoyable. I doubt i'll be milking the final boss but then again arcade mode isnt exactly a long mode so milking in theory wouldnt be too horrible. Although if there are leaderboards for more than 5 minutes than i guess that starts to suck.

I didn't really understand story mode wit the x/x star count constantly going up to xx/xx xxx/xxx. Guess i'll have to mess or read around here or eleswhere. Definitely a welcomed change of pace.

[Elixir]

No.

You have two types of curse, one that charges up and which you cast on a single medium or large enemy. Any popcorn enemy near that enemy will be cursed as well, and when they are killed you get stars.

The other type of curse, which you don't charge you just throw out in front of you and any enemies passing through it will be cursed->stars. You can also step in this circle to power up and defeat bosses, other harder enemies.

That's basically what I just said.

[E. Randy Dupre]

Not really - it's more complex than just being a bomb.

Can somebody explain what the crack is with the timer? The in-game tutorial doesn't appear to explain it.

[CIT]

If the timer reaches zero, the god of death appears and kills you. If you have less than two minutes left by the time you reach the final stage you get the bad ending. It's basically a means to keep you moving.