NEWB ALERT!Question about comparative difficulty in shumps.

gemini · Post by **gemini** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:27 pm

I'm not sure if this is the kind of question which is too stupid to ever ask or if its the kinda question which comes up more or less frequently but I’m gonna ask anyway! Are horizontally scrolling shumps harder than vertically scrolling shumps in general?

I ask because I’m experiencing almost a polar opposition in terms of difficulty (not that I’d describe either as easy per se). I'm basically having a lot of difficultly passing mid level-stages in Nanostray 2, R-type and even Lords of Thunder without dying several times and while I expect it to be hard, I just don’t seem to get substantially better with practice. But with games like DDP which i've only been playing for 2 days I can get to midway in the third stage on 1 credit (not saying this is amazing or anything but I'm definitively a shump amateur) and I feel a lot more confident in Ikaruga too (not for scores, just surviving). Are the more old school style shumps in some way harder than the newer bullet hell kinds? Or is just that my brain adjusts easier to one style of play over another?

Anyway, if there is already a thread on this please point me to it. Should make interesting reading…

jochen · Post by **jochen** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:08 pm

A ( maybe ) short and simple answer : it depends on you, the player.

Do you prefer vertical or horizontal shmups. If you are more interested
in vertical shmups you concentrate more while playing and so you
die less.

Another point : how old are you. When I was younger ( and better
- at least when it comes to sucessful play games ) I played
"Horis" like Thunderforce 3 and Gynoug.

If you are some years younger than me your first experience with
shmup´s might have been bullet-hell-shmups from Cave.

Old as I am ( 37 ) I prefer games like "Lords of Thunder" ,
"Thunderforce 3, 4 " . As a collector I also have the PS2-Cave-games
in my collection - but I don´t play them as often as the older games
from the first half of the 90´s.

Jochen.

toaplan_shmupfan · Post by **toaplan_shmupfan** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:44 pm

Are horizontally scrolling shumps harder than vertically scrolling shumps in general?

Yes.

They often have more behind-the-back attacks (and many do NOT offer a back attack weapon even though a few do), and they also have more maze-like passages that have to be dealt with while defeating the various enemies.

If you go here...

http://shmups.classicgaming.gamespy.com/

...you will even find within one of the reviews that the horizontal shmup is often considered a genre within a genre, due to the fact that many horizontals are harder than verticals.

Are the more old school style shumps in some way harder than the newer bullet hell kinds?

Yes.

Even though the shot patterns are not as dense when compared to the newer manic type shmups, keep in mind that the hitbox for those old school shmups is often the entire ship/plane/helicopter, or at least a larger part of it when compared to the much smaller hitbox in many manic shmups.

Aru-san · Post by **Aru-san** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:47 pm

Play Salamander. It's a horizontal and a vertical shmup in one. (Technically, it's a vertizontal with it being a YOKO game scrolling vertically, but that should probably constitute as the same as a vert...right?)

kengou · Post by **kengou** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:48 pm

This is an interesting question. I find verts easier than horis in general. Many horis require you to memorize the enemies and obstacles, so when you start playing those they seem harder since you don't know what's coming. This memorization aspect makes many horis seem unfair and not-so-fun to me personally, but a lot of people seem to like that sort of thing.

whoozwah · Post by **whoozwah** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:57 pm

pretty much agreed. From my experience, there's more of an emphasis on navigating the level as there is the shooting with the hori shmups. Not so much with the vert shmups.

kozo · Post by **kozo** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:10 pm

Just to add a bit to the pile, some stereotypes:

Horis: Often have checkpoints, emphasis on survival and navigation, small and fast aimed bullets, bigger hitbox, enemies from behind, slower pace. Almost like putting together a puzzle...while being shot at.
Examples: Gradius series, R-Type series, Thunderforce series, Border Down
Moldbreaker: Progear no Arashi (practically a vert on its side)

Verts: No checkpoints, emphasis on scoring and technique, complex/fast/both bullet patterns, smaller hitbox on ship and bullets, rarely enemies from behind, faster pace. Usually nothing to crash into like walls except the enemies themselves. Tend to have a hook or gimmick (reflecting bullets, polarity switching, splatter shot, slow down time, etc.)
Examples: ESP Ra. De., Mars Matrix, Samidare, Ibara
Moldbreaker: Radiant Silvergun (slower scrolling, lots of hori-style maneuvering, enemies from behind and every possible direction, hiding behind walls from giant boss laser, etc.)

I personally jive more with vertical shmups, but both styles require some level of reflex, memorization and planning. Horis require you to plan out methodological, skilled flying through obstacles and tricky enemies, verts need planning on effective use of bombs and skills to grab the highest score possible. Both styles take practice, and both styles are awesome and fun.

ncp · Post by **ncp** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:03 pm

I suck dick at horis.

captpain · Post by **captpain** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:06 pm

I don't think there's a hard and fast answer.

Whatever you find tougher.

BIL · Post by **BIL** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:06 pm

Aru-san wrote:(Technically, it's a vertizontal with it being a YOKO game scrolling vertically, but that should probably constitute as the same as a vert...right?)

Yep.

Post by **Shatterhand** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:27 pm

The thing with Nanostray 2 and Lords of Thunder is that both are console games. Dodonpachi is an arcade game.

This has been discussed here before (mainly regarding Compile shmups), but console shmups have a tendency to start at a kinda difficulty level, but never getting very difficulty at the end, while arcade games usualy start very easy, but gets brutally hard when you get far in the game.

R-Type, in the other hand, is an arcade game... but I think if you are dying on level 2 of R-Type, that's not too bad for a shmup amateur.

Also, as it has already been said, it depends a lot on the player. I have a tendency to suck hard on Cave games, but I play old-school games a lot better.

Davey · Post by **Davey** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:57 pm

I don't think either horis or verts are harder as a whole; it really comes down to individual games. Having said that, they are challenging in different ways. I think kozo summed it up pretty well.

To me, horis feel more methodical, slow, claustrophobic, and memory-based. If you're just playing for survival, verts are probably easier at first because they're more about reflexes and being able to quickly visualize safe paths. Horis require more trial and error, so you'll probably die a lot at first. Vert survival skills transfer better from game to game, I think, although scoring is a different story.

PC Engine Fan X! · Post by **PC Engine Fan X!** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:06 pm

Shatterhand wrote:This has been discussed here before (mainly regarding Compile shmups), but console shmups have a tendency to start at a kinda difficulty level, but never getting very difficulty at the end, while arcade games usualy start very easy, but gets brutally hard when you get far in the game.

You could say that American Sammy's Daioh PCB ramps up it's difficulty factor quite quickly by the time you reach Stage 4 and beyond. You eventually get to the point of trying to dodge bullets that travel faster than your fightercraft moves (not to mention your fightercraft with it's big hitbox in place as well). Where is the fun in that? ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

lgb · Post by **lgb** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:15 pm

It appears when you manage to pull it off.

Lloyd Mangram · Post by **Lloyd Mangram** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:39 am

lgb wrote:It comes when you manage to pull it off.

originalz · Post by **originalz** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:06 am

I've always been better at horis, although these days I prefer to play verts. I dunno why, probably because I used to play games like Gradius and R-Type when I was younger and was pretty good at them (although I also played a lot of verts). Games like Deathsmiles seem really easy to me because there's very little for level hazards and you aren't restricted with powerups and such. I guess maybe I'm just used to being able to maneuver and use the full space.