Battle Bakraid.... why?

[spineshark]

I generally don't have a problem with confusing mechanics, but what kills any interest in playing Bakraid for score for me is that, like DDP, the actual execution is awfully exacting. I just can't get into timed chaining systems like that, though some can be bearable if they aren't too punishing when you don't continue the chain in time.

[Icarus]

This, I think, is a big part of the overall problem, even if in some cases it's imagined... this isn't always even the case, as most members around here are plenty friendly, but when someone who was thinking about asking a question sees others repeatedly derided as scrubs due to something as simple as a difference in preference, they're a lot more likely to keep their yap shut.

The only time I've seen this "tournament trash-talking" is, funnily enough, during tournament time. Most of the time, people are friendly enough to share info if asked. The problem is that very few people actually bother to ask.

That's not the only thing that bugs me though. While I can accept and understand that many players won't like some game systems because of conflicting tastes and/or lack of knowledge, it's when people make comments like "I don't understand this system, it must be broken" or "it's broken because it's unintuitive" that bothers me. Lack of knowledge or experience is understandable, but stating that a game is "broken", "bad" and/or "crap" just because you don't understand it is wrong, in my opinion.

This isn't to say that there's nobody around here who isn't much interested in learning anything, but you seem to suggest that such a mindset is a spreading epidemic among our members, and I really don't think that's the case. Definitely more of a molehill than a mountain, if you ask me.

It certainly appears that way. Strat appears to be moving slower than it used to, to my memory. While admittedly I haven't done much with the Strat forum myself lately, due to a chronic lack of time, I do stick my head in there from time to time. But even now, when new games are released, you don't see the kind of discussion boom that you used to.

I dunno, I've never taken anything resembling an exact count, but if the number of Cave-bashing threads and posts around here doesn't outnumber the "weirdo"-bashing threads and posts then they certainly come close.

I can recall at least ten individual threads from this version of the forum where Raizing-bashing occurs, but I can't recall even that amount of Cave-bashing threads. I wonder why that is...

[ZOM]

That's not the only thing that bugs me though. While I can accept and understand that many players won't like some game systems because of conflicting tastes and/or lack of knowledge, it's when people make comments like "I don't understand this system, it must be broken" or "it's broken because it's unintuitive" that bothers me. Lack of knowledge or experience is understandable, but stating that a game is "broken", "bad" and/or "crap" just because you don't understand it is wrong, in my opinion.

Guilty

[Shatterhand]

That's not the only thing that bugs me though. While I can accept and understand that many players won't like some game systems because of conflicting tastes and/or lack of knowledge, it's when people make comments like "I don't understand this system, it must be broken" or "it's broken because it's unintuitive" that bothers me. Lack of knowledge or experience is understandable, but stating that a game is "broken", "bad" and/or "crap" just because you don't understand it is wrong, in my opinion.

Guilty

I used to be like that. I don't know exactly who was, that here on forum, in a thread where people were complaining about rank in games, and how certain game would be better without rank, replied with something like:

"If it didn't have rank, it would be another game. There's no "with rank" or "without rank" discussion, the game was designed with rank, that's how the game is, and you can like or not like it that way".

This really opened my mind. And then, of course, on an STGT suiciding for the 1st time in Batrider, and feeling natural about it made everything even easier to understand.

I still remember that Batrider episode very well. I didn't even blink or thought "this is weird/stupid/unnatural/whatever", I just went BOOOM against an enemy bullet without thinking twice. It was the right thing to do, much like shooting enemies is.

[Vexorg]

I'd actually have to say Bakraid is my favorite of the Raizing games, and the only one I have purchased in PCB form. The score chaining isn't THAT convoluted (once you understand how the multipliers work, and how suiciding and bombing can extend your chains) and the game is a lot more accessible to less experienced players than Garegga or Batrider. To be honest, I find Batrider so convoluted I can't be bothered to figure it out, and Garegga is a game that's pretty much reserved for hardcore players only.

[Twiddle]

garegga is easier to play than bakraid and batrider hth

[kemical]

Bakraid is fun to just play, I own the pcb and it is an addictive game that you can play in short bursts, solid music and presentation, may be a little generic but it is done really well I think.
It feels like a Raiden or Skyshark of the Raizing games to me.

[BulletMagnet]

Lack of knowledge or experience is understandable, but stating that a game is "broken", "bad" and/or "crap" just because you don't understand it is wrong, in my opinion.

This is correct, but on the other end of the spectrum there are some who continually insist that if another player doesn't like a game that they themselves like, the former "must not understand it," or are "unwilling to learn" or, again, "must just suck horribly at shmups" or "has no taste at all". Both camps just set each other off, and make life miserable for the rest of us in the process - both must be acknowledged and such behavior out of either end shunned if we want to keep this from popping up on a regular basis (to be fair, I'd say that things on that front are overall better than they used to be).

But even now, when new games are released, you don't see the kind of discussion boom that you used to.

I'm no hardcore score attacker, as I'm sure you know, so I'm not the type who spends hours on end in the strat forum or reviewing replays (though, as you also know, when it comes to nailing down a game's core mechanics I'm willing to put in the time) - as such, you're in a better position than I am to judge the status of that section. Off the cuff, though, are you more concerned about the lack of nitty-gritty stuff that only a handful of players can successfully pull off to begin with, or of general information required to play a game competently, as opposed to record-setting level?

I can recall at least ten individual threads from this version of the forum where Raizing-bashing occurs, but I can't recall even that amount of Cave-bashing threads. I wonder why that is...

cuz ur biased

[captpain]

Seems to me like knowing the nitty-gritty is the only way to score well in a Raizing game

They aren't like most CAVE, where you can learn very easily from a replay -- the execution and the concepts in Raizing games are difficult, as opposed to just the execution (as in CAVE games).

[Icarus]

This is correct, but on the other end of the spectrum there are some who continually insist that if another player doesn't like a game that they themselves like, the former "must not understand it," or are "unwilling to learn" or, again, "must just suck horribly at shmups" or "has no taste at all". Both camps just set each other off, and make life miserable for the rest of us in the process - both must be acknowledged and such behavior out of either end shunned if we want to keep this from popping up on a regular basis (to be fair, I'd say that things on that front are overall better than they used to be).

While I don't think I'm in the "lets bash scrubs LOLZ" camp (I hope), I do agree that there are troll-baiting people on both sides, but that is part and parcel of many forums. I would personally hope that this would not discourage old and new players from initiating and contributing to discussions of strategies and game systems in a civil manner, though.

Off the cuff, though, are you more concerned about the lack of nitty-gritty stuff that only a handful of players can successfully pull off to begin with, or of general information required to play a game competently, as opposed to record-setting level?

I wouldn't say "concerned" but I have noticed that people discuss strategy less as of late. You would think that new releases like Deathsmiles and Raiden Fighters Aces would ignite discussion, but nothing has happened, at least on this forum. It is pretty interesting to note, and as a scoreplayer, a little disappointing to see.

But then again, you could argue that scoreplay is limited to a select few people, while the rest just prefer to play for fun.

I can recall at least ten individual threads from this version of the forum where Raizing-bashing occurs, but I can't recall even that amount of Cave-bashing threads. I wonder why that is...

cuz ur biased

I ike both Cave and Raizing, so LOL to that.
PS: 11 games in this year's Top 25.

[Rob]

Strat appears to be moving slower than it used to,

There's an obvious reason for that - the more that's been posted in the strategy section, the less reason there is to post there. It can just be referenced. It has threads for most popular games and covering many common questions. By new games do you mean arcade-only releases?

[jpj]

the DOJ thread has doubled in the last 6 months - or are we the exception to the rule?

[Smraedis]

Usually people don't like the games that I like, that has to be the reason!

One thing I haven't enjoyed is the lack of other people who play the game, so I have never had much motivation to change strategies, or put up a replay of the game...
I'd like to help out on a strategy thread/guide for the game, though I'm not good at writing them, showing them in person is far more my style

Did people like this game before that high scoring replay came out?
What about that ESP RaDe replay, I think that makes the game look quite bad..

But I don't really get it to be honest.. it is really simple to clear, and really hard to score high, isn't that what people want?

[Rob]

the DOJ thread has doubled in the last 6 months - or are we the exception to the rule?

Well, judging by the last page it looks like a 'gaming progress' thread. Not knocking it, but I don't see the strategy discussion.

[jpj]

there's loads of good shit in there. a lot of it goes on by pm as well dunno why

[captpain]

there's loads of good shit in there. a lot of it goes on by pm as well dunno why

Yeah, better not post all that useful strategy in the strategy forum. Best not to clutter up the thread with strategy tips.

[BulletMagnet]

I would personally hope that this would not discourage old and new players from initiating and contributing to discussions of strategies and game systems in a civil manner, though.

I certainly share that hope, as such discussions have been a big part of my own experience in becoming more familiar with and enjoying a larger selection of shmups - as you say, though, civility is unfortunately not guaranteed, and moreover inevitably leads to jerks citing Freedom of Speech whenever a mod or admin sees fit to get involved. Anyways, that's something that goes far beyond the bounds of this particular discussion.

But then again, you could argue that scoreplay is limited to a select few people, while the rest just prefer to play for fun.

Depends on what you mean by "scoreplay" - if you mean the "memorize the entire layout of a title and attempt to squeeze every last point out of the whole thing no matter what" mindset, then yeah, I think it's safe to assume that few people are willing or able to devote themselves to a game to such an extent. If you mean "those who don't know a game inside-out and have no desire to do so, but have done enough research to know how to generally play 'properly' and try to work in scoring techniques wherever they're confident in their survival skills," then I think most any shmupper has the potential to do at least that much with most every title they play.

[jpj]

captain:

i think if anything, people are a little concerned about "spamming" the strat section with questions/progress and sometimes people want feedback on replays, but don't like posting them publicly. some people are also a bit self-conscious about their english

personally, i think the more posts in that thread the better, even if they are not all "strats" or "tips" etc, as long as they're on topic, because it's motivating to other players as well. i've told prom a few times that i'm really happy he's playing because it got me back into it after a long period of not playing; i'm actively trying to learn stuff that i thought was far above my level; and my score is about 200 mill higher

[Icarus]

There's an obvious reason for that - the more that's been posted in the strategy section, the less reason there is to post there. It can just be referenced. It has threads for most popular games and covering many common questions. By new games do you mean arcade-only releases?

I mean anything that isn't covered in the strategy forum. Though I do agree with you that the strategy forum does cover the more popular games and that there's not much reason to post if it's been covered. But you would expect new players to at least address initial queries if they have them, and new games like Deathsmiles to be discussed openly.

Depends on what you mean by "scoreplay"...

I mean more serious players, the ones that post in score threads on occasion, and actively pursue improvements. Actual discussion of strategy seems to occur from the usual suspects.

I believe that everyone has something to offer in a good discussion, regardless of skill level.

i think if anything, people are a little concerned about "spamming" the strat section with questions/progress and sometimes people want feedback on replays, but don't like posting them publicly. some people are also a bit self-conscious about their english

1) Why worry about spamming strat with on-topic strategy-based stuff like queries? Isn't that what the strat forum is for?
2) Why worry about posting feedback on replays? I post my crap runs all the time, and while I don't expect feedback, at least it (hopefully) gets discussion going.
3) I've seen people with really bad language skills take part in all kinds of discussion - the general meaning of a post can be discerned even if the wording isn't perfect. Language issues shouldn't discourage people from good discussion that could benefit everyone interested.

[jpj]

people don't like being criticised unfairly. on here, and other forums, i've seen people getting scolded because they posted something which was already mentioned (usually 10 pages back ), replays being derided, and people being criticised or made fun of because they aren't very good with the language. i don't really like talking on other people's behalf, but that's the impression i get.

and take into account that if you have a specific question you want to ask, and to a specific person who you think will know the answer, you're more likely to get a reply from a pm than posting in a thread and hoping they notice.

to get back to my point though the doj thread took 2 years to get to 6 pages, and then 6 more months to get to 12 pages. i don't pay much attention to the other threads, so are we a bit of an exception?

[Twiddle]

can't post on strategy threads, there are cave games to salivate over but not talk about or post in the hi score threads at all

seriously the only people i see posting cave scores are gp, sda members, and jpj

[captpain]

Basically, the reason people don't like Bakraid is because they are fat and dumb, and the reason people don't post in Strategy threads is because they are fat and dumb. I think that's pretty straightforward. *reclines in chair*

[Twiddle]

Basically, the reason people don't like Bakraid is because they are fat and dumb, and the reason people don't post in Strategy threads is because they are fat and dumb. I think that's pretty straightforward. *reclines in chair*

*sips latte*

[kernow]

people don't like being criticised unfairly. on here, and other forums, i've seen people getting scolded because they posted something which was already mentioned (usually 10 pages back ), replays being derided, and people being criticised or made fun of because they aren't very good with the language. i don't really like talking on other people's behalf, but that's the impression i get.

and take into account that if you have a specific question you want to ask, and to a specific person who you think will know the answer, you're more likely to get a reply from a pm than posting in a thread and hoping they notice.

to get back to my point though the doj thread took 2 years to get to 6 pages, and then 6 more months to get to 12 pages. i don't pay much attention to the other threads, so are we a bit of an exception?

talking about games in that much detail is just basically super-nerd.

thats my excuse anyway

[redeyeguy_KIO]

Basically, the reason people don't like Bakraid is because they are fat and dumb, and the reason people don't post in Strategy threads is because they are fat and dumb. I think that's pretty straightforward. *reclines in chair*

*sips latte*

Fat?

[FIL]

As somebody slightly overweight and of average intelligence, I quite like Battle Bakraid.

I'd play it seriously for score if it wasn't for the hurdle of trying to chain Axebeak, I just can't get the hang of it. Also i'm too fat and dumb to play Advanced mode.

[Twiddle]

Basically, the reason people don't like Bakraid is because they are fat and dumb, and the reason people don't post in Strategy threads is because they are fat and dumb. I think that's pretty straightforward. *reclines in chair*

*sips latte*

Fat?

yeah he called you fat what of it

[BulletMagnet]

yeah he called you fat what of it

universal response

[redeyeguy_KIO]

Blaming problems on others... a universal issue.

[Aru-san]

I post my crap runs all the time

Crap runs as in:

1) Just a couple thousand points from a record-breaking score (either personal, about 2/3rds of the world record, OR the world record itself) or
2) Something similar to crap runs of Raizing games where I can only manage to score about 1/3rd to half of the average player on the first stage and tend to die on accident a lot?