XRGB-3

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Wed May 20, 2009 9:03 am

I don't have PAL material for testing, but I was told that the output is actually locked to 60Hz which means that the 50Hz PAL input is converted to 60Hz. This might be negligible for many games, but might be problematic if you have smooth scrolling backgrounds which are locked to the 50Hz refresh rate... But besides that, good news.

gundamalpha · Post by **gundamalpha** » Wed May 20, 2009 9:27 am

Is XRGB2 any good? I can't seem to find the major differences between 2 and 2+

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Wed May 20, 2009 9:58 am

(+) for the XRGB2

it usually handles "weirder" PCB frequencies, like the 54Hz of the Seibu boards.

(+) for the XRGB2plus

component AND rgb inputs
different density settings for the scanline emulation.

gundamalpha · Post by **gundamalpha** » Wed May 20, 2009 10:03 am

I thought XRGB2 accepts RGB inputs as well? How about the composite and S-Video inputs? Are they there for XRGB2?

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Wed May 20, 2009 10:08 am

You usually don't want to use the composite and s-video on the XRGB.

The XRGB2 has composite, S-Video and RGB
The XRGB2plus has composite, S-Video, RGB and component.

The XRGB3 in 2plus mode has the same inputs with the difference that 480p component signals are accepted, which is nice if you want to use a PS2, XBox oder GameCube.

If you want to use scanline emulation take the density setting serious. The 100% scanline setting of the XRGB2 is annoying. The scanlines are very distracting this way...

gundamalpha · Post by **gundamalpha** » Wed May 20, 2009 10:14 am

Ok thanks

I'm looking into re buying a XRGB2+ then. I still need S-Video and composite as my PCE and N64 are unmodded, and I'm no good at all modding

CrackLtd · Post by **CrackLtd** » Wed May 20, 2009 10:22 am

I am selling my XRGB-2plus. You (or anyone interested) may contact me with a PM and an offer.

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Fri May 22, 2009 1:32 am

CrackLtd wrote:Hi, i am new to the XRGB-3 Scene, i just got mine a few weeks ago, and i have to tell you that at least my machine has absolutly NO problem to process PAL signals via the frontscart at all. The picture just has to be repositioned and there you go. The picture Quality is stunning, no artefacts, no shadows, no halos. Its important to use B0 mode with the LPF option turned off! I tested it with a Playstation 1 and some euro pal games. The results always were amazing. So, the XRGB-3 is _the_ game console scaler especially for vintage systems be they NTSC or PAL.

Yes i too get a picture if i have my Saturn in 50hz mode and the XRGB3 in B0. But I'm really surprised that its usable for you at all.
First off the picture is way too low on screen, but as you said that can be fixed. But the picture is stuttering like hell and its absolutely unusable, with the Saturn at least. Or maybe i forgot to turn off LPF?

What firmware are you using?

I'm not really sure that I would wan't to use B0 mode anymore since i've switched to B1. There really isn't that much difference in the picture when upscaled in B0 and i'm starting to like scanlines in some games. Also Vsync can't always be set to ON depending on consoles used and resolution, this will cause a small amount off stuttering.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Fri May 22, 2009 6:01 am

Fudoh wrote:For US users who are using a PC anyway in the chain. An older TV input card with a RF jack should be fine for connecting an old Atari to a PC monitor.

The guy I was talking to about this laughed at your suggestion, BTW. :o Dunno if he was using a crap card or what.

CrackLtd · Post by **CrackLtd** » Fri May 22, 2009 11:43 am

@Konsolkongen: As Fudoh already pointed out on his famous Scalersite, turning off the LPF feature just gives a way sharper picture on 240p output, be it from a NTSC or PAL source. You are right when you are used to use NTSC consoles with the XRGB and then trying out a PAL one, the outputpicture is a little displaced. It should have the same quality as a NTSC source picture but way to low positioned. Eventually brightness must be fixed too. Because PAL has more rasterlines than NTSC you have to fiddle around with the "Screen Adjustment" submenu (3rd line of main menu). The key to get the XRGB-3 show ALL rasterlines is not just to reposition the "vertical position" values but also the "Output Vertikal Position". This is, like Fudoh also explained before, the window within the XRGB-3's display itself, hard to explain, but you will find out yourself easily. Basically you open that window wider at top and bottom and crunch the picture inside that window a bit in a way the aditional PAL rasterlines fit into that window. This way you get the full PAL picture, no rasterlines get lost. You may also fiddle around a little bit with the "vertical screen ratio". But like i said, my experience is based on a PSX, since i pointed out each console pretty much needs its own settings, the settings you need for a flawless display of a Saturn PAL maybe different to those i use with the PSX. I can do some pictures and telling the exact values i used if you like in a later post, no problem. I have the latest Firmware on and i find the B0 mode way more powerful than the B1. B1 mode also has a weaker picture on my panel, but this may caused by my panel, and i am (OMG!) not such an scanline fan. In fact i can't see why people do such an hype about scanlines at all. They are more or less a 'failure' on CRTs because in the noninterlace mode there is missing half of the rasterlines, so these spots are falling black then on a progressive (240p) mode. To still have the picture in the correct ratio the CRT just cant squeeze the lines closer together what would make the black lines disappear. This is forcing the CRTs to keep those black lines. Its more or less just a technical necessity to keep the ratio and the full screen picture. With flatpanels you dont need that anymore. Now at last, with the new technology, you finally can get rid of these nasty scanlines. And what people do? They create a hype for scanlines. Thats beyond me, sorry. lol. Well, no argue, that is just my personal taste. Others might think different. (Obviously).

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Fri May 22, 2009 5:15 pm

Here i got the awesome Alien Solider running in 50Hz mode (the game is optimised for PAL and will run too fast in 60Hz):

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1243012164

I've tried turning Vsync and LPF on and off but still the background is stuttering a lot and in my opinion the game is not playable like this. Same thing happens on the Saturn as i said earlier. I'm not sure how fiddling with the screen positioning can solve this problem, or do i have to change something else?

Also im not on the newest firmware as i atm. only use B1 mode. But i doubt anything has been changed to improve PAL performance?

EDIT: And about upscaling i bet you can't tell me which of the following pictures are in 1280x1024(B0) and which is in 640x480(B1). There is very little difference

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1243014150
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1243014149

And just for fun here is a close up of Guardian Heroes with scanlines

:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1243014606

When you consider the very little difference in the upscaled picture and the one in B1 mode its just not worth using B0 anymore IMO. Also in B0 you get a constant 30ms lag and Vsync hardly ever works at all so you will get a slight stuttering no matter what console you are using.

EDIT2: Well of course if you can get a perfect PAL picture on your XRGB3 B1 mode would be worth using for that alone.

CrackLtd · Post by **CrackLtd** » Fri May 22, 2009 8:43 pm

Check if panel plays back at 50Hz too. Most probably its at 60Hz even when a PAL 50Hz console is connected to the XRGB. Thus may give you a little stutter on scrolling backgrounds if that is locked to 50hz playback. About your little quiz: You can't seriously mean that, 'cause due to processing of the digital camera and my PC's display it is totally impossible to see what picture is what res from my place here.

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Fri May 22, 2009 8:45 pm

TV says 60hz yes. I don't believe 50hz is possible with VGA.

EDIT: According to the XRGB-3 manual, none of the supported output resolutions are in 50hz. How do you get 50hz from your XRGB?

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Fri May 22, 2009 8:58 pm

CrackLtd wrote:About your little quiz: You can't seriously mean that, 'cause due to processing of the digital camera and my PC's display it is totally impossible to see what picture is what res from my place here.

Off course not :p IRL the picture is a little better when upscaled, but with the 30ms lag and missing Vsync B0 isn't very exciting IMO.

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Thu May 28, 2009 10:29 am

I'm still curious on how you get 50Hz output from your XRGB-3?

Artemio · Post by **Artemio** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:05 am

I recently got an XRGB-3 and several RGB cables Japanese style ones). I've been really impressed at what can be achieved with this box, and have digged a bit more into my console collection.. repairing them and modding them.

I modded my N64 for RGB output this weekend, and it did work. But I had some issues. I didn't build the amp, and am trying to get the transistors mentioned in several guides, but have had no luck so far here in Mexico.

The issues I have are that the image is too dark (obviously fixed with an amp) and sometimes the XRGB looses the sync with the N64, no matter which game I try it out with. Could the lack of an amp/booster cause this? I ask because I am not sure if the color signal can be the problem, since I noticed that only color is boosted with these amps and not the sync signal.

I also find the same issue when using a (possibly bootleg) Pulstar MVS cart on my Neo Geo, this doesn't happen with any other cart I have (several AES and another MVS one).

The other game that I have found to present this is Sonic CD on a Sega CD Model 2, using a Sega Genesis Model 2.

I am using B1, but it also happens on B0. The only other custom setting I have is AFC set to manual and level 3 (necessary for Neo Geo)

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:53 am

Most likely you need to stabilize the sync line by adding a capacitor and a resistor into the sync line. If you check the gamesx.com RGB/monitor forum you can find several posts about people loosing the sync signal for a moment (and possible solutions).

Artemio · Post by **Artemio** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:04 pm

Thanks Fudoh, I'll be looking into this.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:28 am

will the xrgb3 pass through 480p material through it's 21 pin RGB input?

Artemio · Post by **Artemio** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:45 am

No luck with that, as a matter of fact they "black outs" only got more frequent. I only tested the N64 and the Sega Genesis Model II.

I experimented more with the Genesis, since the problem has only presented itself with Sonic CD. It happens even with the game paused, in the first level, past version.

I tried using a 220 uF + 75 ohm and also a 100 uf, I even tried 100 uf and 75 ohm with no luck at all.

Any help wil lbe apreciated. I'll mod my PCE Duo meanwhile.

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:54 am

Have you ever seen flickering on the top of the screen on your MegaDrive? Like this:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1244616694

It's possible you need to install a sync-chip in the RGB cable, that solved my problem with my MegaDrive1.

Like this:
http://www.gamesx.com/misctech/lm1881.htm

Artemio · Post by **Artemio** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:38 pm

Thanks for the advice Konsolkongen. I was getting that with the Neo Geo, but AFC set to manual and in level 3 seemed to solve it.

I noticed that it is slightly present on Sonic CD as well, and playing with teh AFC did fix it as well, but sync was lost eventually no matter thte values with AFC.

I wonder if you installed the LM1881 inside the XRGB as you planned? I am considering this myself, since the problem I have is seldom (as I mentioned, just with the N64, Pulstar on the Neo Geo and Sonic CD on the MD).

I'll try to get the LM1881 today, hopefully it is available somewhere around here.

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:52 pm

I havent installed it in the unit yet. I couldn't seem to find a good spot to get 5V from but i guess i could look at some datasheets for the chips and tap it from one of the legs.

My MD1 has some stange shadows hanging to the right of some objects which i suspect may be caused by the Sync chip. It doesn't happen in every game so i don't think its related. But if its caused by the chip then i don't want every consoles sync to pass through it and worsen the picture.
I should get a brand spanking new MegaDrive 2 tomorrow and i can check if it has the same issue without the sync chip. If it does then i will install the chip inside the machine.

I'll let you know how that turns out

Artemio · Post by **Artemio** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:39 pm

I see... I was planning on taking the ground and +5VCC from the RGB cable as well, but I am guessing that you didn't consider that to be a good idea.

I just got some LM1881, I'll do some tests tonight. I'll try it with only the N64 at first only and see what happens instead of directly fitting it inside the XRGB. I planned to use pins 16 and 21 (I am using all Japanese style cables).

Animaitor · Post by **Animaitor** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:28 am

Hey Artemio, I think you are having the same problem I had with the Neo Geo AES serial #18XXX (few pages back on this same post). In my case it will happen in all the games I own. I had an official SNK RGB cable but after some modifications and also removing the resistor the problem persisted. Got an RGB cable with the LM1881 and the problem is still there. The only solution is as you already did, set the AFC to manual and at least on my case to a value of at least 5 for the best image quality. The LM1881 might solve your Megadrive or Nintendo 64 image problem though. Buena suerte!

Artemio · Post by **Artemio** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:38 am

Animaitor thanks, I'll keep it in mind. My Neo Geo is a Japanese model, serial #92XXX. The top of all my Neo Geo games is wrong just as in your case when not using AFC, but only pulstar goes out of sync and to a black screen in very specific (and always the same) parts, even with AFC set to 5.

I'll be sure to check what happens with the LM1881 and report it back.

ありがとう, がまばります！

Artemio · Post by **Artemio** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:09 am

First of all, sorry about double posting.

Well, I went ahead and tried modding the XRGB itself to include the LM1881 inside. I decided this because several of m cables do not have the +5V line (pin 16 on the Japanese RGB standard).

In order to open the XRGB I followed the instructions given by Konsolkongen here http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 876#457876

The first issue was finding a suitable +5VCC inside the XRGB. But after testing with the ,multimeter all around the place I could only get 3.3V or 1.7V. Then I searched for the LM1881 data sheet (http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM1881.pdf) and found out it could work with anything between 5V and 12V. After checking that the ground was suitable for use and verifying the value with the multimeter I decided to use the power source that in my XRGB-3 gives 10.44V. Here's the pic of it:

(Sorry about the quality of the images, I only had my celphone at hand, please click on them for a larger version)

This is the corner of the box just beside where you connect the power.

After that I proceeded to cut pin #9 (the sync) from inside the XRGB, just as Konsolkongen described in the post linked above. (The pin is number 5 counting from right to left from the outside row).

After that I connected the circuit (built from the diagram available at gamesx.com: http://www.gamesx.com/misctech/lm1881.htm) and connected the sync out to the corresponding place:

And after that, I went on to test it (here I had just placed the circuit over with some tape under it)

The Results:

- The Genesis worked perfectly fine, as expected. I tested Zero Wing and it worked flawlessly, then I proceeded to the only game that had issues so far, Sonic CD. As mentioned in earlier posts this game loosed sync now and again when in Level 1 during the "past" version of the level, even when paused. Well, i am glad to report that all issues were gone, and also the slight distortion present in the corners was gone.

- The N64 worked "better" but it is still not ok. I must say that I haven't built the RGB booster/amp for it, so this might be an issue with that. I tried Mario 64 and at least this time around I could see the title screen and teh game select screen. It still lost sync, but not as easily as before. Will report on this one later after building the amp (I now have the transistors at hand).

- The Neo Geo. For reference, my serial is 093237. As far as I have read, this is in the batch that has a "fair" RGB out, albeit not the best. The issues it presented were: I had to set up AFC to manual and level 3. Specifically with Pulstar (MVS, using an MVS to AES converter) it lost sync every time that the game changed screens between gameplay, title screen, cinemas and sometimes within gameplay. I am glad to report that the issues are 90% gone. The XRGB keeps the signal stable, presenting only some slight lines when switching screens (but without loosing sync). I also believe that it looks better now, but I admit it could be positive thinking. I still need to use AFC in manual and at level 3 though (didn't expect this to change).

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:29 pm

Awesome! Thanks for pointing out a spot to get Voltage for the LM1881 on the Xrgb and its great to see that someone can use the guide i put together

I just finished modding my new MD2 and as expected i have experienced a lot of black screens with a RGB cable without LM1881.

I will install one of these inside the XRGB later tonight if i have time. I will report back if the picture gets worse on Saturn which have never needed it.

Artemio · Post by **Artemio** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:36 pm

There is a small side effect though. When there is nothing connected or the console is off, you can't access the XRGB-3 menu unless you change input. This is possibly because the LM1881 is giving some output and teh XRGB-3 is trying to sync with that. There might be an easy solution (cutting the power if there is no input) but I haven't figured out an easy way of doing so.

It is nothing major (at least for me) since when there's input everything has worked great so far.

I'll test my Saturn tonight as well, and check out if the Sega Master System and MD 1 have no issues either.

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:41 pm

Hmmm i think mine has always behaved like that? Well its no problem for me either way