Ed Oscuro wrote:Rob would say: find a game that doesn't have a strict chain that lets you create your own path.
Thank you. I like the variety of trying different approaches* alongside the mindless repetition.
*Accidentally finding a better strategy and spending an hour trying to figure out how to do it again.
Battletoad wrote:I´m not so good at concentrating on the chain timing and dodging bullets at the same time
Just too difficult and unforgiving for me... I guess if the timing wouldn´t have to be that precise I would really love the chaining in GB 2.
You like GW2 and MM (good taste), so I'm sure you'll like the coin chaining in time. It's more of an extra than a centerpiece. Don't worry about it until you can get to 1-6 or 7 on a credit.
Battletoad wrote:I kind of dislike the chaining system in Gunbird 2, but maybe just because I´m so bad at it. It would be really cool (for me) if you had a little more time (maybe the time the game offers you x1.5) than just this extremely tiny fraction of a second to collect the coins.
Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of Mars Matrix; I don't like the Psikyo spinny coins / flashing gold bars thing that much.
Battletoad wrote:I´m not so good at concentrating on the chain timing and dodging bullets at the same time
Just too difficult and unforgiving for me... I guess if the timing wouldn´t have to be that precise I would really love the chaining in GB 2.
You like GW2 and MM (good taste), so I'm sure you'll like the coin chaining in time. It's more of an extra than a centerpiece. Don't worry about it until you can get to 1-6 or 7 on a credit.
Ok thanks for the advice
Sometimes I want to collect the coins too badly... it just is disappointing how seldom I can do more than a 5 chain. But you´re right, I´ll keep it easy.
And I laughed at your first comment... happens to me way too often that I find the best strategies by accident. I think I´m too conservative while playing shooters... when a strategy works, I do it again and again and spend hardly any time trying new strategies.
IMHO refined and flexible chaining systems with slowly increasing and slowly decreasing multipliers, leading to multiple potentially valid decisions available to the player at each moment of play (e.g. XII Stag) are the answer. Because they encourage player experimentation, which is generally a fun thing to do. XII Stag even provides graph charts at intermissions, letting you really play around with its chaining in a fun way and get feedback from the game in a clear way about it.
By comparison, relatively inflexible chaining systems (e.g. DDP) are unnecessarily punitive and just tend towards obsession with (arguably) unimaginative memorisation, by zeroing your multiplier at the first sign of divergence from an established path. This might be attractive to 'perfectionist' type players who get pleasure from knowing 100% for sure that they are on the "one true path", but for many others this is not satisfying and therefore not ideal game design.
"Thunder Force VI does not suck, shut your fucking mouth." ~ Shane Bettenhausen
Donpachi is a great example of making a forgiveable game with the DP chain formula. DDP and DDP-DOJ are just messed up. If you miss a chain in Donpachi, it doesn't matter that much, just get the next one.
I also think the DonPachi chaining system is one of the best systems around.. and then they tried to make it a bit (too) hardcore on DDP, and it is more irritating than good, at least the chaining in DFK seems to be friendlier.
I know I would have to spend a crazy amount of hours on DOJ, before I can chain and score lots.. well except Stage 2, and that stage is even simple on DDP too...
Plasmo wrote:Donpachi is a great example of making a forgiveable game with the DP chain formula. DDP and DDP-DOJ are just messed up. If you miss a chain in Donpachi, it doesn't matter that much, just get the next one.
I don't think it's that bad in DDP either. Chains are only about 50% of potential score. You can still get a decent score just playing it like any shooting game and ignoring chains, specially since 2nd loop is actually great for score unlike DOJ where it's impossible for anyone who hasn't practised it for ages.
DOJ is pretty bad since everything on your score basically comes from chains if you don't include the sad tiny bonus you get from having hit on bosses, even though getting those hypers for those come from chains too :P. DonPachi is still definately less of a no brainer when it comes to score but to me it feels it costs the game a bit when it comes to the depth of the scoring system, but I guess it's fine for most that way.
I like to defend DDP on this because I personally got my best score on DDP failing chains on every stage of the game and bombing or dying after 1-4 every stage. It definately is more forgiving than DOJ but still of course way more complex than DP. I guess it depends on person but for me I feel DOJ is too unforgiving, DP a bit too simple and DDP is somewhere closer to ideal scoring system for me.
i've always seen it as a cup half full/empty type of thing. rather than see it as penalising players who can't chain, it rewards people who are willing to learn. and because it's exponential, it's not like they are really difficult to learn, but only increase your score by a few percent (like extreme boss milking in some other games). and DOJ is one of my favourites because of the flexibility of the hyper system. i have 5 different superplays, and they all do certain things differently. even now i've been chatting with CRI about black label, and some new strats/paths from the BLEX replays on xbox live
RegalSin wrote:Videogames took my life away like the Natives during colonial times.
I'm sure if DOJ spat the extends out easier people wouldn't be so annoyed by it - they would just play for survival, use Hypers for bombs and then come back to learn the scoring later. I noticed the DDP:DOJBL machine in Hey! had a very telling configuration: 5 lives, no score extends.
Taylor wrote:I'm sure if DOJ spat the extends out easier people wouldn't be so annoyed by it - they would just play for survival, use Hypers for bombs and then come back to learn the scoring later. I noticed the DDP:DOJBL machine in Hey! had a very telling configuration: 5 lives, no score extends.
if DOJ gave you extends via "every XX", XX would have to be such a high number (100m probably) new players would hate it. Any less and you'd have the good players reaching Hibachi with like 30+ lives which kind of ruins the experience
It surprises me that an arcade would do an extend setting like that for DOJBL... DOJ has literally the easiest extends I've ever seen, with minimal practice you can get both of them by the second level, with a little more practice you can get them both before the first boss...
jpj wrote:i've always seen it as a cup half full/empty type of thing. rather than see it as penalising players who can't chain, it rewards people who are willing to learn.
I see where you're coming from. But on the internet it's really easy to fall into the trap of comparing your scores to the uber players', even when you know you're nowhere closer to their skill level. Chaining ceases to be a "bonus" because everybody is doing it (or so it seems), so really it's a necessity. It's good because it pushes you to do better, but it also sheds more light on your lack of skill and creates extra frustration.
So, uh, let's talk some more about why Ketsui is so awesome...
BIL wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 11:01 pm
Imagine a spilled cup of coffee totalling your dick and balls in one shot, sounds like the setup to a Death Wish sequel.
I'm not a big fan of chaining since it requires even more memorization, usually in games that are already heavy on it. As long as a game doesn't require chaining to actually make real progress, I can live with it. (Actually, I can't think of any games that do that offhand, but maybe there's been one?)
It's not my least-liked shmup "feature," however. That dubious award would go to rank. I've ranted about that in many threads before, I'll stop now.
"Am I the only one who thinks it's funny that people start declaring a game is overrated before it's even out? "
"You're at shmups.com. We're all psychics full of righteous indignation!"
croikle wrote:Galuda II does this. Extends are at 15 and 35 million, and it's possible to get 60 million before the first boss.
Wow, big turnaround from Galuda where it takes a damn perfect run to get just the first extend on stage 1 with the second one quite a ways off (I've never played Galuda II obviously). I'd be curious if anyone can name another.
Speaking of extends, I was fiddling around with the settings on Mushihime the other day and noticed there is an "Every 10 million" setting. Isn't the Maniac WR like 2.6 billion? I'd love to see a run getting 260 extends
I don't much like timed-chaining like the DDP series, but it's not terrible. I usually try to chain stage 1 before giving up in disgust somewhere in stage 2, in both DDP and DOJ. I enjoy the chaining a lot more in Ikaruga, since you can screw up a chain and still score reasonably well as long as you pick it back up quickly. There's also some (small) room for improvisation, which I find there isn't much of in DDP/DOJ.
Overall though, non-chaining is generally a lot better than chaining. ESPGaluda and Progear are some of my favorite scoring systems because they leave a lot of room for improvisation. Plus the visual reward in those games for scoring well is a great payoff.
"I think Ikaruga is pretty tough. It is like a modern version of Galaga that some Japanese company made."
What other Cave games give both extends on the very first level?
How is this relevant?
How is the easiness of DOJBL's extends relevant to a comment about the difficulty of getting extends in DOJBL?
Gee. I don't know.
:|
Being able to get them on Stage 1 does not mean they are easy to get. To reiterate: You cannot say DOJ chaining is just a reward for people playing for score when it is integral to survival, thus if that was mitigated people wouldn’t bitch about it so much. I was not saying you should get a million extends, or how difficult they are to get in a score run.
Last edited by Taylor on Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
kengou wrote:
Overall though, non-chaining is generally a lot better than chaining. ESPGaluda and Progear are some of my favorite scoring systems because they leave a lot of room for improvisation. Plus the visual reward in those games for scoring well is a great payoff.
This! One of my favorite parts of Progear and ESPGaluda is to see a ton of bullets turn to diamonds, or see a bunch of gold x100s on the screen. It makes you feel like you're doing something right.
