So what is the Real reason xbox360 is the new shmup console?

2dvertical · Post by **2dvertical** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:14 pm

I just dont see why it is so. I find it all to convienent that ps3 goes region free and then a niche genre like this jumps over to another console when so many were on the ps2. Is it really "easier" to develop these games on the xbox? Im not looking for a "get over it and go buy a jap xbox360" response. I am just curious as to what you guys think.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:21 pm

It seems like more than a coincidence, so it seems that there ought to be some explanation. At the same time there may not be a single explanation-- the reasoning might be different for different developers, for example.

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:25 pm

I think it's because the 360 is easier to develop for, and financially it's more accessible to developers to get their stuff on. With the PS3, not so much. A lot of people don't want their games shoved on XBLA or PSN as initial releases, which is probably why we haven't seen any quality shmups debut on the XBLA.

The 360 in Japan sold pretty well due to iDOLM@STER and EDF/Oneechanbara. That was pretty much all it had going for a long time, then Blue Dragon came out. Then we started seeing stuff like Shikigami 3 in late 07 and RFA in early 08. It really picked up in '08 with iDOLM@STER L4U, Lost Odyssey, Vesperia and the XBLA started seeing a fair amount of quality games. It's just been getting better ever since.

As for the PSN/PS3, it's pretty lackluster. I bought my console for Disgaea 3 and I didn't even finish the game. I checked out the JP PSN store but decided against downloading games which would probably look like shit by being upscaled on my HDTV (and since I have an XRGB + monitor setup for my Supergun, MAME and PS2, there's even less point) and the actual exclusive content for the PS3 is a joke. I pretty much only use my PS3 for when Etrian and the boys come over for movie night. Blu-ray is really nice, although I don't really get the full enjoyment out of it on a 720p 32" HDTV.

I don't think region locking has anything to do with it. There's still JP-only PS3 titles coming, but since the PS3 is still where the 360 was in 2007, there isn't that many right now.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:25 pm

One can also wonder about the Wii in all of this. They have three shooters I can think of:

Blast Works
Shiki 3
Ultimate Shooting Collection

(Am I forgetting something?) One can legitimately ask why the Wii isn't getting more, given the huge number of Wiis out there.

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:38 pm

G.Rev.

Well, that, and Microsoft tried their hardest to convince developers to work for their platform, unlike Sony at the time who was super-arrogant that they'd still have developer support for their system based on brand recognition alone.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:58 pm

professor ganson wrote:(Am I forgetting something?)

The Monkey King

2dvertical · Post by **2dvertical** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:12 am

Rob wrote:
professor ganson wrote:(Am I forgetting something?)
The Monkey King

And ocean commander if that counts.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:23 am

professor ganson wrote:One can also wonder about the Wii in all of this. They have three shooters I can think of:

Blast Works
Shiki 3
Ultimate Shooting Collection

(Am I forgetting something?) One can legitimately ask why the Wii isn't getting more, given the huge number of Wiis out there.

And Illvelo.

Raizen1984 · Post by **Raizen1984** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:25 am

I think developers like the 360. It has a very streamlined, PC style development environment. Particularly with arcade ports, or any kind of port, it's much easier to program for. With the PS3, I believe extensive reprogramming is necessary to ensure optimal compatibility with the Cell processor. It's just a matter of it being easier for developers.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:26 am

Wii has market penetration... it's only natural it gets something good. Not everyone wants the onslaught of shit games that polute most of it's library.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:35 am

Novelty dies fast in Japan; the Wii is fading... And even then, just as in the US, few JP Wii owners will actually buy a shooter. I mean, if ddp DOJ can't sell on the ubiquitous PS2, then how do you expect a random shooter to do?

Kollision · Post by **Kollision** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:40 am

So what is the Real reason xbox360 is the new shmup console?

Ahn....

Xbox 360?
Death Smiles?
Raiden Fighters Aces?
Raiden IV?
Otomedius?
Shikigami No Shiro Episode 3?
DDP DOJBLEX (even with the bugs)?
Shooting Love 200X?

PS3?
only interested in Söldner-X, which I just can't fu%#@#! buy because of where I live!

Kollision · Post by **Kollision** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:42 am

Kiken wrote:
professor ganson wrote:One can also wonder about the Wii in all of this. They have three shooters I can think of:

Blast Works
Shiki 3
Ultimate Shooting Collection

(Am I forgetting something?) One can legitimately ask why the Wii isn't getting more, given the huge number of Wiis out there.
And Illvelo.

And Ocean Commander.

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:55 am

Kollision wrote:
So what is the Real reason xbox360 is the new shmup console?
Ahn....

Xbox 360?
Death Smiles?
Raiden Fighters Aces?
Raiden IV?
Otomedius?
Shikigami No Shiro Episode 3?
DDP DOJBLEX (even with the bugs)?
Shooting Love 200X?

PS3?
only interested in Söldner-X, which I just can't fu%#@#! buy because of where I live!

A list of shmups for the 360 doesn't exactly do a great job of explaining why the 360 is the preferred console of choice this generation.

Ex-Cyber · Post by **Ex-Cyber** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:09 am

My guess is that it follows from the arcade situation. Getting custom chips designed and manufactured is so expensive now and arcades are such a low-volume application that moving to more standardized hardware was pretty much inevitable unless companies wanted to be stuck with essentially Neo-Geo-level hardware with a faster CPU. PC was the obvious choice, and a bunch of developers took it. Once PC hardware is chosen, the obvious choice for the software platform is Windows+DirectX (not least to have decently supported GPU drivers). If the game is written for Windows+DirectX to begin with, then most of the work to get it running on 360 is already done by the time the arcade game ships.

Raizen wrote:With the PS3, I believe extensive reprogramming is necessary to ensure optimal compatibility with the Cell processor.

I doubt that most shmups would even need to touch SPEs, which are the only things that might require extensive reprogramming from a CPU standpoint (PS3 Linux even runs unmodified PowerPC binaries).

Kollision · Post by **Kollision** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:57 am

Elixir wrote:A list of shmups for the 360 doesn't exactly do a great job of explaining why the 360 is the preferred console of choice this generation.

It's reason enough for me, regardless of tech specs and blah blah...
If one's gonna wait for the scenario to change, chances are one's gonna wait forever.

Enhasa · Post by **Enhasa** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:58 am

No need to list individual games or region-locking or whatever. It's way simpler than you guys are making it. FPS and shmups are both considered in the same genre in Japan. 360 has been the obvious STG console from day one.

If you have to choose a console, you choose the one where you figure it would sell the best, i.e. the one with the largest base of STG players. This used to be the PS2 because of ubiquity. Now it's the 360, and this was true from the beginning, long before the recent spate of shmups.

hirounder · Post by **hirounder** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:16 am

MS was very friendly towards lot of smaller developers in Japan back in 2005 and made lot of deals with them considering 360 development, I suspect that involved giving out developer kits for free or lowering down licence costs.
If you remember back then (before 360 japanese launch) MS published list of developers that will support the console and most of the shmup oriented developers were already on it (Grev, Moss, Treasure, Cave, Warashi...). After that it was like avalanche really, that started with Senko no Ronde and ended in well... what we have today.

Daika110 · Post by **Daika110** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:53 am

If the 360 is the new shmup console than we're in really bad shape. I can count the # of decent shmups released in the US, disc and live arcade, on one hand. If they started to remove the region lock on the JAP only shmups or brought them out on live arcade THEN we're talking.

kk1030 · Post by **kk1030** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:06 am

Daika110 wrote:If the 360 is the new shmup console than we're in really bad shape. I can count the # of decent shmups released in the US, disc and live arcade, on one hand. If they started to remove the region lock on the JAP only shmups or brought them out on live arcade THEN we're talking.

atm 400mb games cost 1200 msp, I wonder how will 3-4gb games cost.

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:39 am

Kollision wrote:
Elixir wrote:A list of shmups for the 360 doesn't exactly do a great job of explaining why the 360 is the preferred console of choice this generation.
It's reason enough for me, regardless of tech specs and blah blah...
If one's gonna wait for the scenario to change, chances are one's gonna wait forever.

So the reason for the 360 doing well and having lots of shmups on it, as opposed to other consoles which could have also had them, is because it has lots of shmups on it. That doesn't make any sense.

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:49 am

I think a number of developers have suggested that the 360 is cheaper to develop form with lower licensing costs. There was also a survey done that suggested that Japanese 360 owners are the most satisfied with the console and that they play more than Wii or PS3 owners. Link. It just may be that the 360 has become kind of a gamer's system in Japan, so even though other systems may have better market penetration, the low development cost and the idea that the types of consumers that buy shooters favor the 360 is probably why developers favor it.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:41 am

their was an article about the shooter developer meet up (whatever they called it).

that question was addressed... they stated that number one was the PS3 was more difficult to program for than 360. the real reason they stated that was the issue was the cost of the development systems for the PS3 were WAY more expensive than for the 360. they couldn't afford the costs of development on PS3 do to the extra learning curve and much higher costs for the development kits.

gundamalpha · Post by **gundamalpha** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:50 am

My thought is the 360 is a niche console in Japan, and games like shumps and AVG have niche followings. It reminds me of Sega Saturn, although the 360 is on a much smaller scale.

Jockel · Post by **Jockel** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:09 am

I would have been quite happy to see the new cave shmups on the Wii.
Because the userbase is massive, the console doesn't have such a high defective rate and importing is no problem.

TodayIsForgotten · Post by **TodayIsForgotten** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:11 pm

kk1030 wrote:
Daika110 wrote:If the 360 is the new shmup console than we're in really bad shape. I can count the # of decent shmups released in the US, disc and live arcade, on one hand. If they started to remove the region lock on the JAP only shmups or brought them out on live arcade THEN we're talking.
atm 400mb games cost 1200 msp, I wonder how will 3-4gb games cost.

That March Madness game was 1.5 gigs and is 1600. Id say anywhere from 1200-2000 (the latter will happen eventually)

gray117 · Post by **gray117** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:17 pm

Cost of dev kits ... until recently ps3 was just beyond many developers... Additionally on release ps3 was very badly supported.

In terms of programming - although ps3 is not as fraught as some may fear - you will probably achieve more predictable results faster with 360 than ps3; which on low cost projects can be very important - especially when it comes to making time later on for cleaning and tweaking.

Region locks -as frustrating as this may sound - are mostly due to language/translation issues or rights of license holders on the distribution side... no one wants to pay for it, developers probably feel its hassle which will not do much/anything for their market. Microsoft and Nintendo are very strict on translations, Sony has relaxed a little on these.

Wii would have been an interesting platform to increase shmup exposure. Wii dev costly are vastly lower than ps3 or 360. However, shmup developers can probably more easily pick up ps2 development [if they haven't already] and will think of it as an already established market.

Jockel · Post by **Jockel** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:49 pm

Only that Wii's processing power is quite higher.

Daika110 · Post by **Daika110** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:55 pm

The Wii's virtual console is a FAR better shmup console than a US 360.

DJ Incompetent · Post by **DJ Incompetent** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:29 pm

Daika110 wrote:The Wii's virtual console is a FAR better shmup console than a US 360.

Disagree'd