7th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Results

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Wed May 27, 2009 10:56 pm

jpj wrote:but the only one for me that could be an issue on that list would be ddp and doj (as doj is basically the same game but better 8) ).

Hence, it's on the list a spot down.

Get your shit together Cave fans!!!

...oh wait, it's MAME.

doctorx0079 · Post by **doctorx0079** » Wed May 27, 2009 10:57 pm

Rob wrote:
jpj wrote:honestly rob, i don't think i've ever seen someone so vocal about their views as you. sometimes they can be funny, but it's like every youtube video you do, every other thread you start, it's always what your take is on [XYZ].
The videos are reviews, so they have to be a take on something. But I am interested in opinions other than my own or I'd just post in a recap-style forum-blog.

Rob also seems to know what he's talking about. And the videos are incidentally hilarious, especially Gunbird 2 and "Ay-ghis whut?"

if you were putting together a top 25 albums of all time, would you have a crisis of conscience if you put in 10 or more rock albums..?
No, it'd be like including 10 Beatles albums. Popular = bad, too. The best thing to do would be to stop addressing "overrated" comments. It is very boring (the use and response).

Actually it would be like putting together a top 25 rock albums list, and including 10 Beatles albums. I would be thinking "Seriously? That many? I could see maybe 2, but what about bands X Y and Z??"

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed May 27, 2009 11:01 pm

see, i'm mainly with you on that one. but.....

garegga is probably the best shmup soundtrack ever. ibara is good, for sure; but garegga is better. but the soundtrack, and black heart, are the only two things that still make it stand out in light of batrider and ibara.

man, now i need to go play ibara too

edit: too many posts yo, but i was replying to chi

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed May 27, 2009 11:11 pm

jpj wrote:unless i was misunderstanding you rob, you seemed to be implying that people had voted for 11 of the same game essentially.

No, the stuff about 10 years ago were interesting and different (Guwange, Dangun, even Progear). I just think if they all were that different people would have stronger preferences for one or the other (Ketsui one hit wonder according to Japjac

).

louisg · Post by **louisg** » Wed May 27, 2009 11:15 pm

Rob wrote:It's the perfect pick, really. I think it's become clear that Garegga is the ultimate cult classic around here. It sustains long-term interest, while I don't see that in a single Cave game. People will play hard for a while, get sick of it and sell all of their junk to next victim. Garegga fans don't get sick of it for some reason. ┐('~`;)┌

Yeah, I have to admit that even though I'm not the biggest fan that it at least has entertaining stages. I'm able to look past Souky's flaws for that reason: the levels are too fun.

Re: Cave: I have to say that DDP seems to have a lot of staying power. I'm not sure Cave has really topped that one in terms of coming up with a game both as well-executed and groundbreaking.

Chi_Ryu · Post by **Chi_Ryu** » Wed May 27, 2009 11:20 pm

jpj wrote:see, i'm mainly with you on that one. but..... garegga is probably the best shmup soundtrack ever. ibara is good, for sure; but garegga is better.

Yeah, that soundtrack is bloody good, granted (and I will concede it's better than Bakraid's or Batrider's). I really, really like Ibara's, too - don't make me choose between the two!

(I'm a sucker for Flying Shark's soundtrack, too... but I think that's mainly nostalgia!

)

Can we have a top 25 Shoot'em up soundtracks now, plx?

louisg wrote:Re: Cave: I have to say that DDP seems to have a lot of staying power. I'm not sure Cave has really topped that one in terms of coming up with a game both as well-executed and groundbreaking.

Groundbreaking, yes. However, I'm with jpj on this in that DOJ is the same formula - but better!

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed May 27, 2009 11:30 pm

well, i think cave are at a bit of turning point right now. more sequels and black label remixes than ever. personally, i lost interest after futari; although deathsmiles was fun to play, and makes progear feel prehistoric. but you've got three different lead guys nowadays in ikeda, yagawa (?), and ichimura; and they all feel unique to me, and some i like more than others. even the three yagawa games to me, are very different experiences. but a proper NEW new cave game is long overdue, i agree

edit: fucking excellent idea

Danbo · Post by **Danbo** » Wed May 27, 2009 11:37 pm

Cave haven't came up with any dramatically different ideas since 2001 or so because I don't suppose they're really in a position to take any risks as the last company standing. Maybe it's about time they went bankrupt and split off into a bunch of companies ;]

Wouldn't mind a Progear 2 though

louisg · Post by **louisg** » Wed May 27, 2009 11:38 pm

That's not my point, my point is that better games should be ranked higher than older games that might be more historically significant.

I forgot who said this (nested comment), but that really is a good question: what do we mean by 'top'? You could interpret it at least three different ways: 1.) Most historically significant, 2.) best of all time trying to set aside personal preference (least flaws, interesting gameplay, good pacing, etc), and 3.) favorite shooters- the ones you've played a ton and which still haven't worn out their welcome. (I tried to make my list #3)

Chi_Ryu · Post by **Chi_Ryu** » Wed May 27, 2009 11:41 pm

Danbo Daxter wrote:Cave haven't came up with any dramatically different ideas since 2001 or so

To be fair, DeathSmiles was quite a departure from their usual style.

msm · Post by **msm** » Wed May 27, 2009 11:49 pm

jonny5 wrote:shiki 2 vs mushi would be an interesting one....id be interested to hear views on both sides of that one.....

i'm probably a "cave fanboy" or whatever but would vote for shiki 2 in that one, agree with whoever said the graphics are a bit crap though, 3 looks much better imo.

ForceDevice · Post by **ForceDevice** » Thu May 28, 2009 12:13 am

Funny how everyone's saying this was the best list in recent years (everyone on the first page, at least) while I feel it's the most disappointing ever since I became aware of the existance of this top 25.

Battle Garegga? First place? You gotta be kidding me. I guess people like the rank system, medal chaining and blah blah blah so much they forget it looks AND sounds like shit. Whatever.

What pisses me off the most though is DDP being higher than DOJ again. Really. Don't even know what to say.

On the good side, Ibara made it to the top 25 and Souky's surprisingly on the HM list (was it there last year?). And Psyvariar 2 finally got some love.

And last but not least...

186. Yakouga 4 : 0.204868 01 0.171233

Dunno if I should be happy or depressed about this.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Thu May 28, 2009 12:44 am

ForceDevice wrote:Battle Garegga? First place? You gotta be kidding me. I guess people like the rank system, medal chaining and blah blah blah so much they forget it looks AND sounds like shit. Whatever. ...

On the good side, Ibara ...

mmmmm generic prerendered 3d over oppressing brown yet painstakingly detailed!

give me more of that donkey kong country

ncp · Post by **ncp** » Thu May 28, 2009 12:47 am

Donkey Kong Country is a fantastic game.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu May 28, 2009 12:55 am

ForceDevice · Post by **ForceDevice** » Thu May 28, 2009 1:19 am

Twiddle wrote: oppressing brown yet painstakingly detailed!

Don't you mean "oppressingly brown yet oppressingly brown"?

Seriously though, being "depressing" or "brown" doesn't automatically make something look good. Nor does being detailed. What's the point in having lots of cool little details in the background if I still look at it and think "what a fucking ugly piece of crap" all the same?

And I don't recall ever saying Ibara is what Garegga should look like.

louisg · Post by **louisg** » Thu May 28, 2009 2:11 am

ForceDevice wrote:Battle Garegga? First place? You gotta be kidding me. I guess people like the rank system, medal chaining and blah blah blah so much they forget it looks AND sounds like shit. Whatever. ...

BG's not the best looking game, but it sounds rad. It's got a nicely done soundtrack-- granted the soundtrack and graphics aren't as good as Mahou Daisakusen, which sort of rocks on all fronts including gameplay.. you guys should put down your BGs and play that!

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Thu May 28, 2009 2:21 am

ForceDevice wrote:
Twiddle wrote: oppressing brown yet painstakingly detailed!
Don't you mean "oppressingly brown yet oppressingly brown"?

Seriously though, being "depressing" or "brown" doesn't automatically make something look good. Nor does being detailed. What's the point in having lots of cool little details in the background if I still look at it and think "what a fucking ugly piece of crap" all the same?

And I don't recall ever saying Ibara is what Garegga should look like.

grey or brown choose your pick

Danbo · Post by **Danbo** » Thu May 28, 2009 4:02 am

i really like garegga aesthetics it aged really well imo and the music + graphics together have a really cool atmosphere, ibara got a cool style too though

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Thu May 28, 2009 4:16 am

$50 Eek-aruga price 'stravaganza goin' on at the general, boys best hop on that deal

Also DKC is indeed a good game, for a platformer

Garegga really doesn't sound so amazing, but the tracks are always interesting and appropriate. My only complaint about the visuals are the shrapnel occasionally interfering with my bullet recognition.

The main thing I dislike about Garegga is having 5K medals disappear off-screen; although at least I can memorize where they all come from.

Honorable mentions in this post:
'aggis Wing, Dime-a-who?

BIL · Post by **BIL** » Thu May 28, 2009 7:23 am

ForceDevice wrote:and Souky's surprisingly on the HM list (was it there last year?)

It was 19th last year.

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Thu May 28, 2009 7:43 am

markedkiller78 wrote:That you talk shit.

Except I don't. Apparently according to your fellow Scottish friend charlie chong, giving evidence that you've accomplished something in a game means you've backed up your claim by having experience with said game, ignoring that people could have spent equal to or above the amount of time I did with it and still haven't cleared it. And then that isn't even the point, the point is most people jumped into the bandwagon because of the bandwagon. Without it, there wouldn't be any PCB-only game in fourth right now.

I'm really not sure where the discrepancies for "innocent until proven guilty" lie, can you tell me more about that glorious education system in Scotland you have? Maybe proving my own game time will finallly shut everyone up and everyone will be under my assumption that the majority of people who voted for Ketsui, didn't play it or don't own it. I'm not JAPJAC, I'm not going to eat breathe and shit Ketsui every weeping moment of my life.

markedkiller78 wrote:I also don't have a picture of me fucking the queen in the ass, I wonder if that's because I'm telling some porkies? If I had done either I'm pretty certain I would have found a camera from somewhere to imortalize the moment.

Excuse me for not reducing myself to posting photos of my Leet Gaming Skills. If I don't start spoon feeding 1ccs down everyone's throat people might start thinking I suck at games!

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Thu May 28, 2009 7:54 am

jonny5 wrote:
you are saying you dont like zombi 2?

it is probably one of fulci's finest films, and his first foray into horror

sorry for the OT...this just caught my eye

Nah, I like Zombi 2 and I like Bakraid, they're just similar in that they are both totally unrelated "sequels".

kengou wrote: I don't think Bakraid is totally different. There is still medal chaining. There is also the addition of other mechanics onto that formula, though. I understand it has a more complex scoring system, but the foundation of Bakraid's system is still very much like Garegga and Batrider's system.

I would wholeheartedly disagree with that. Enemy chaining is the foundation of the score system, not medal chaining.

I wasn't debating the rest of your points, I just don't understand the propensity for lumping Garegga, Batrider and Bakraid together.

charlie chong · Post by **charlie chong** » Thu May 28, 2009 9:02 am

Elixir wrote:
markedkiller78 wrote:That you talk shit.
Except I don't. Apparently according to your fellow Scottish friend charlie chong, giving evidence that you've accomplished something in a game means you've backed up your claim by having experience with said game, ignoring that people could have spent equal to or above the amount of time I did with it and still haven't cleared it. And then that isn't even the point, the point is most people jumped into the bandwagon because of the bandwagon. Without it, there wouldn't be any PCB-only game in fourth right now.

I'm really not sure where the discrepancies for "innocent until proven guilty" lie, can you tell me more about that glorious education system in Scotland you have? Maybe proving my own game time will finallly shut everyone up and everyone will be under my assumption that the majority of people who voted for Ketsui, didn't play it or don't own it. I'm not JAPJAC, I'm not going to eat breathe and shit Ketsui every weeping moment of my life.

markedkiller78 wrote:I also don't have a picture of me fucking the queen in the ass, I wonder if that's because I'm telling some porkies? If I had done either I'm pretty certain I would have found a camera from somewhere to imortalize the moment.
Excuse me for not reducing myself to posting photos of my Leet Gaming Skills. If I don't start spoon feeding 1ccs down everyone's throat people might start thinking I suck at games!

yet your happy to detail every single x box 360 acheivement you get to the forum in threads

it really is pointless even trying to reason with you. im sure all the people who enjoy posting scores in the high score forums really care what you think

go and wank over some underage cartoon girls you peasant

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Thu May 28, 2009 9:11 am

charlie chong wrote:yet your happy to detail every single x box 360 acheivement you get to the forum in threads it really is pointless even trying to reason with you. im sure all the people who enjoy posting scores in the high score forums really care what you think go and wank over some underage cartoon girls you peasant

Are you serious? I discovered the MBL achievement and posted it in the Death Smiles thread where everyone wanted to know what it was. Perhaps you're thinking of PsikyoPshmupPshooter.

I also don't post scores period. The only one I posted was in the Ketsui DS thread where I beat MrMonkeyMan (then I dropped the game, and he reclaimed it a few months later).

charlie chong · Post by **charlie chong** » Thu May 28, 2009 9:20 am

YOU WON THE INTERNET!
YOU ARE SO RIGHT ELIXIR
I LOVE YOO
XXX
MUM

ForceDevice · Post by **ForceDevice** » Thu May 28, 2009 9:32 am

Bill wrote:
ForceDevice wrote:and Souky's surprisingly on the HM list (was it there last year?)
It was 19th last year.

..was it? I guess my memory must be really bad then.
So I'm supposed to be sad because it dropped to the HM instead of glad it's even there? ._.

Chi_Ryu · Post by **Chi_Ryu** » Thu May 28, 2009 9:37 am

Elixir wrote:Except I don't.

Elixir wrote:And then that isn't even the point, the point is most people jumped into the bandwagon because of the bandwagon.

These contradict each other. You are STILL making claims that you can't substantiate, and thus you are, in fact, talking shit on that particular point (and also on the original "90% haven't even played the game" claim, one of the three quotes that comment referred to).

As for the 1cc pic, that's a bit of a red herring here (I don't see what it'd achieve anyway). I'd still like to know on what basis you assumed that a) 90% of the people voting for Ketsui have not played it "properly" (provably false, unless you have an odd definition of "properly"

) and b) people jumped on the bandwagon to get Ketsui to a high position.

Elixir wrote:I'm really not sure where the discrepancies for "innocent until proven guilty" lie

This isn't a court of law.

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Thu May 28, 2009 10:13 am

It is difficult to dissect actual content from white noise from what you write, but I'll try my best.

I'd still like to know on what basis you assumed that a) 90% of the people voting for Ketsui have not played it "properly" (provably false, unless you have an odd definition of "properly" ) and b) people jumped on the bandwagon to get Ketsui to a high position.

This entire thread is bandwagoning Ketsui and er, there was also a thread on cave-stg titled "Ketsui Defense Force" but it's deleted now. Probably because it was spam.

Do you honestly think that Ketsui would have obtained fourth position this year if this thread and the general bandwagoning weren't present? Really? I don't see any other threads dedicated to bandwagoning other games. This is one of the reasons why I don't vote; the entire thing is bullshit, pointless and this just proves it can be modified if people are easily perused into following along. I need not spend any more time with this.

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Thu May 28, 2009 10:14 am

Ketsui's position this year is another relic of the voting system. I'd like to see Ketsui's position without the two heavily skewed votes from Sonic R, which was obviously a joke vote, and JAPJAC, who we know has a hard on for the game. Without those two weighted votes, it would probably fall a few positions.