7th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Results

[kengou]

No other game forces you to die in order to complete it!

ikaruga

I don't get it.

[innerpattern]

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 the Rest:
260. Radical Radial                                          :  0.108364  01  0.054348

Nice game whoever voted. Thank you ~bye bye!

[professor ganson]

but you cannot deny that in this day and age cave is on top with nobody else even close to the summit

Cannot deny? Cave makes more shooters than anyone else, but it's far from obvious who is making the best. Where is the argument that Futari is better than Shiki 3? Maybe when you provide that argument you can reasonably say "you cannot deny that cave is on top".

Don't get me wrong. I like Death Smiles quite a bit. It's cute. But wtf is going on with the art style in Ibara? I had to sell the PCB some months ago because I couldn't bear to look at that game. How can you change Garegga like THAT??? Just wrong in so many ways. Cave can't touch Alfa System artistically. And gameplay-wise you're going to tell me Death Smiles is better than Shiki 3? Again, I'm looking forward to seeing the argument for that claim.

[core]

I love every game on the list and all of you!!!

Yay!!!!!

[0ccamsRazor]

Garegga tactical suicide is renegade and badass. No more graphic subversion of videogame rules than controlling a game with death itself. While bombing and shooting motherfuckers.

Someone needs to make a shmup featuring terrorist suicide bombers.

[Twiddle]

like battle garegga?

[Mortificator]

I like Garegga, but I voted for Bakraid. One the downside, it has a bizarre abusable scoring system and the graphics and music aren't quite as good, but the rank doesn't need much management and I can play as something other than the ideal ship/variation without getting annihilated.

I really don't care about the rank, just the games included. Here's my bizarre fantasy shumps.org top 25.

More people should join in on this pointless list-making action.

We could all make one, and then they could be compiled into some sort of top 25 shmups of all time list.

[Dale]

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 the Rest:
260. Radical Radial                                          :  0.108364  01  0.054348

Nice game whoever voted. Thank you ~bye bye!

That was me. Actually got to play it on an authentic cabinet, hooked ever since.

[Acid King]

That's not my point, my point is that better games should be ranked higher than older games that might be more historically significant. That's how I feel about the voting, anyway. I actually like Ibara (arrange only) and Soukyugurentai precisely because they are dissimilar to the standard Raizing formula as found in Garegga, Batrider, and Bakraid, and I don't really like that formula.

Here's a question, why do you throw Bakraid in with Garegga and Batrider? How is that game any part of a formula or 'standard' for that matter?

I can understand placing Garegga/Batrider/Ibara on some kind of continuum because scoring in each is based on rank management via suicide/life management, bombing scenery, medal chains and boss milking but Bakraid is totally different. Scoring is primarily based on enemy chaining, there's no scenery to bomb and suiciding is used in a completely different fashion. Outside of the use of suicide and the appearance of medals, how is it part of a formula?

[Elixir]

Just came here to say that 90% of the Ketsui voters haven't played/extensively played the game.

I'm not saying people who haven't 1cc'd the game aren't entitled to have an opinion of it, but most people have only played it at friends/conventions/arcades and haven't actually owned it.

I'm sure having a higher score means his opinion of the game is superior to mine and everyone else's here.

And your point being?

[markedkiller78]

Just came here to say that 90% of the Ketsui voters haven't played/extensively played the game.

I'm not saying people who haven't 1cc'd the game aren't entitled to have an opinion of it, but most people have only played it at friends/conventions/arcades and haven't actually owned it.

I'm sure having a higher score means his opinion of the game is superior to mine and everyone else's here.

And your point being?

That you talk shit.

He should have included this quote too

I don't have a picture of my 1cc of Ketsui.

I also don't have a picture of me fucking the queen in the ass, I wonder if that's because I'm telling some porkies? If I had done either I'm pretty certain I would have found a camera from somewhere to imortalize the moment.

[adversity1]

I don't have a picture of my 1cc of Ketsui, but I'm not sure what good that would do.

Didn't you tell me in some other thread that you never 1CCed it, just 'messed around with scoring on stage 3'?

[Gwyrgyn Blood]

I also don't have a picture of me fucking the queen in the ass, I wonder if that's because I'm telling some porkies? If I had done either I'm pretty certain I would have found a camera from somewhere to imortalize the moment.

1-All of Ketsui is really fucking easy though so I could understand not really caring that much about it.

[spadgy]

Wow - a list with some surprises! A list I like a lot.

Pretty clear which generation of 2D shooters our hearts lie with. Is Raiden DX the oldest game on the main list? I guess it shows that, using our tastes as a measure, the genre is continuing to get better (or we're just neophiles - but I don't think that's true in most cases).

[system11]

how is it part of a formula?

Battle Bakraid is the sequel to Battle Garegga. How's that for a formula?

[croikle]

They do both involve bombing and suiciding for score, contrary to how many other games are played. The specific mechanics are quite different, though.

[jonny5]

but you cannot deny that in this day and age cave is on top with nobody else even close to the summit

Cannot deny? Cave makes more shooters than anyone else, but it's far from obvious who is making the best. Where is the argument that Futari is better than Shiki 3? Maybe when you provide that argument you can reasonably say "you cannot deny that cave is on top".

Don't get me wrong. I like Death Smiles quite a bit. It's cute. But wtf is going on with the art style in Ibara? I had to sell the PCB some months ago because I couldn't bear to look at that game. How can you change Garegga like THAT??? Just wrong in so many ways. Cave can't touch Alfa System artistically. And gameplay-wise you're going to tell me Death Smiles is better than Shiki 3? Again, I'm looking forward to seeing the argument for that claim.

sorry for the delayed response but i wanted to consider my answer carefully as i respect your opinion and dont want to give you a rushed answer

my comment was about cave in general as a developer vs. everyone else...but even on a game to game basis i think the comment does hold up imo

after some thought i have come to the conclusion that i cant say that you cant deny they are on top without being more specific....because if you dont like cave games you obviously can say they arent on top.....it comes down to opinion....

but if we want to get into business terms, cave is on top....they control a much larger share of the arcade market than alfa systems, or any other current shmup developer.....there games sell better, they are more popular and they make more games....so in that sense, you cant deny they are on top....hit after hit

now as for your direct comparisons of shiki 3 to current cave games....this is a little more tricky to answer for a couple of reasons;the first being differing opinions of what is good(both gameplay wise and graphically), i have put very little time into shiki 3 and you have obviously put in a lot of time, i have yet to play deathsmiles so i cannot compare the 2, you have not played futari(or any newer cave title other than deathsmiles and the PS2 ports....), so i will answer this carefully

first off, opinion: my opinion of shiki 3 was it was uninspired and played like a slightly more polished doujin game.....it was just like shiki 2 with updated graphics and more characters...graphically, i didnt find it awe-inspiring, it looks like doujin....again this is just my opinion of the game....alfa system got a gameplay system with shiki 1 and have just expanded a bit on each subsequent release.....shiki 3 is nothing new....if you played shiki 2 you can pickup shiki 3 and play it

futari, on the other hand, is one of the best and most polished cave titles to date.....it takes what mushi started and makes it so much better.....the different modes are all great and the scoring systems really meld themselves with the game....it all feels so natural......grphically it isnt caves best to date, but they fit and the sprites are quite nice...the patterns are jaw dropping....the scoring systems are new, so you have to learn to score.....

now before you mentioned shiki 3 i didnt say anything about it, but personally i dont think alfa systems and cave are even in the same league....cave games (aside from the loli-aspects) are new and different with each release......alfa systems keeps re-hashing the same game....cave makes smash hits with a huge following, alfa systems makes flashy doujin games for a much smaller following

i do agree that anybody can dispute that based on opinion, but the numbers say otherwise....cave has more fans, they have more games, and the games are arguably better.....

honestly, i think when you get the opportunity to play futari you will re-think your stance.....

so in closing, i can definitely say futari is a better game than shiki 3 and i think most would agree, and i can say that cave is on top of the shmup market, but people have different tastes so there games might not be for everybody

for me there is cave and then there is shmups.....i find it very difficult to compare them to anything else because for me they are light years ahead on all fronts; everything else pales in comparison.....

obviously, others see things differently, and i need to remember that sometimes

hope i didnt offend you at all professor g....it was not my intention.....

[Acid King]

Battle Bakraid is the sequel to Battle Garegga. How's that for a formula?

Awful. If that's the case, Bakraid is Garegga's Zombi 2.

They do both involve bombing and suiciding for score, contrary to how many other games are played. The specific mechanics are quite different, though.

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I've only put a few hours into Garegga, but aren't suicides used primarily for rank management, not score? It just makes the game more manageable and easier to score in, it's not a direct scoring mechanic.

[Limbrooke]

first off, opinion: my opinion of shiki 3 was it was uninspired and played like a slightly more polished doujin game.....it was just like shiki 2 with updated graphics and more characters...graphically, i didnt find it awe-inspiring, it looks like doujin....again this is just my opinion of the game....alfa system got a gameplay system with shiki 1 and have just expanded a bit on each subsequent release.....shiki 3 is nothing new....if you played shiki 2 you can pickup shiki 3 and play it

Nothing new? Do you know anything about the hi-tension max? Add this to the fact patterns/waves, challenge, and visuals were all improved from CS2/SnS2 and SnS3 is right where it should be, the best in the series and the most improved of all titles. SnS3 makes CS2/SnS2 look and feel like crud, it's that improved over the predecessor and before SnS3, CS2/SnS2 was pretty good.

Calling it like a home-brew game or whatever, even if it is opinion is insulting to developer and the fact the game is actually of good quality. Not to knock an unrelated topic but that's almost saying a game like Triggerheart Exelica looks better than SnS3, which is to say it's bogus.

Icarus wrote a brief and to-the-point review over at insomnia, I suggest a read of that, not that it stands to change your opinion one way or another: http://insomnia.ac/reviews/typex/shikigaminoshiroiii/

but if we want to get into business terms, cave is on top....they control a much larger share of the arcade market than alfa systems, or any other current shmup developer.....there games sell better, they are more popular and they make more games....so in that sense, you cant deny they are on top....hit after hit

Hit after hit? I really don't want to knock Yagawa but are you forgetting MMP!, Pink Sweets, and Ibara/Ibara Black Label? I'm pretty sure these weren't 'hits' by any stretch of the meaning. I also believe later titles like Espgaluda 2 also didn't fare too well otherwise there might have been more coverage. It also seems outside DoDonPachi, Cave seems keen on using the same if not similar characters throughout their games and with the DeathSmiles series it's undoubtedly the reason why it's so damned popular. That's justification alone why it got a release sooner than Mushihimesama Futari on 360 and it's the newer game. It's not about substance it's about style in that case and that's not what makes a good shooter nor a good incentive to make a game. Didn't take Cave long to make DeathSmiles 2 either eh, big surprise there.

Quantity =/= quality, so despite Cave making a tonne more games than everyone else doesn't mean they're the best offer. In some cases it's all there is.

I won't say Alfa System is bigger or better than Cave because it's not. Alfa System is small and doesn't seem to make a tonne of games, like Cave, but their of a good quality and there is no denying the SnS has gotten better and more polished over time, and rightly so. But I won't go saying Cave makes better games than Alfa System because that's also not true. I can say in my opinion that of CS2/SnS2 & SnS3 I can name a 1/2 dozen Cave games that suck balls in comparison easy. The reason? Despite supposed quality or popularity of games for example ESP Ra.De., Progear, or god forbid Guwange the scoring and actual playability in the above mentioned Alfa System games are actually rewarding and enjoyable.

Not to mention Alfa System puts the SnS games on PC/Windows and Cave has got nothing on that.

[jonny5]

like i said...some like em...some dont.....but most do.....

and i also said i didnt have too much experience with shiki 3.....im not saying its a bad game, but i was asked to directly compare it to futari, which is not even a contest....

and in all fairness i am comparing 2 games i have actually played, albeit not in depth for shiki3....prof g hasnt played futari at all.....

as i said, i was making a statement about cave as a developer.....not on a game to game basis, but it has turned into that debate.....

im sure some people would say shiki 3 is better than some cave games.....

this is why i hate these kind of arguments.....it all comes down to personal preference and opinion, so its a hard one to argue....

something that i might think makes the game better could be a detering factor for somebody else......

i dont want to get drawn into a discussion about alfa systems games, because number 1 i am less informed on it than fans obviously, and number 2 they arent even on my radar

you can list off any games or developer you want, but it wont change my opinion, so lets leave it at that

and certainly cave have had a few releases that werent received with the same enthusiasm, but they have always bounced back and come through with later games....

and arguably the only cave titles that have been met with little fanfare were the yagawa efforts.....but raizing fans did like them......it was a departure from what was expected from cave, so some werent pleased

[Chi_Ryu]

Is Raiden DX the oldest game on the main list?

No, R-Type trumps that by 7 years.

[jonny5]

Awful. If that's the case, Bakraid is Garegga's Zombi 2.

you are saying you dont like zombi 2?

it is probably one of fulci's finest films, and his first foray into horror

sorry for the OT...this just caught my eye

[jpj]

what shmups do alfa systems make outside of shikigami no shiro?

(too funny henry )

[professor ganson]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses jonny5 and Limbrooke. I have to say, I agree with Limbrooke's remarks, so there's probably no point to rehashing that. I will just reiterate that Alfa System has some really nice non-shmup titles, including some terrific RPGs. As much as I like some Cave games, I'd have to say that I prefer Alfa System as a company overall.

[jpj]

at least you put a disclaimer with each of your posts

[jonny5]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses jonny5 and Limbrooke. I have to say, I agree with Limbrooke's remarks, so there's probably no point to rehashing that. I will just reiterate that Alfa System has some really nice non-shmup titles, including some terrific RPGs. As much as I like some Cave games, I'd have to say that I prefer Alfa System as a company overall.

interesting...see....i wasnt aware that they made RPG's as well.....i dont play RPG's.......

have they ever made any other shmups?

[professor ganson]

what shmups do alfa systems make outside of shikigami no shiro?

(too funny henry )

Kiaidan 00 and Psychic Storm come to mind. Elemental Gearbolt is probably their best-known shooter (light gun).

[Gwyrgyn Blood]

It also seems outside DoDonPachi, Cave seems keen on using the same if not similar characters throughout their games

What the hell does this sentence even mean? Cave barely reuses characters at all between games. There's only even been one series with more than 2 games in it (DDP). This is also a pretty odd claim since, you know, SnS is up to its third game and reuses a fair number of characters between games.

and with the DeathSmiles series it's undoubtedly the reason why it's so damned popular. That's justification alone why it got a release sooner than Mushihimesama Futari on 360 and it's the newer game. It's not about substance it's about style in that case and that's not what makes a good shooter nor a good incentive to make a game.

Deathsmiles is popular partly because of the characters yes. Characters frequently do sell games, and it's not like SnS itself doesn't play on that fact. Deathsmiles also is popular for OTHER reasons like being fun to play and being able to support a wide range of skill levels, among other things.

Your argument here is literally that, because Cave uses characters to help sell a game, that they are 'style over substance'. Great logic.

Didn't take Cave long to make DeathSmiles 2 either eh, big surprise there.

That damn Cave, making a sequel to a game that was really popular while the buzz was still going for it. What a bunch of sellouts.

[professor ganson]

You are picking on minor points in an otherwise lucid post. Or maybe I should say: he was making other very good points.

[Gwyrgyn Blood]

You are picking on minor points in an otherwise lucid post. Or maybe I should say: he was making other very good points.

Okay in the future I won't bother pointing out the stupid/hypocritical parts of an otherwise okay post.