introducing Duality ZF

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:48 pm

Jason wrote:
Udderdude wrote:
Jason wrote:We don't want people with slow PCs ranking up the highest scores on the online scoreboards because they are playing in slow motion!
There is an easy way to get around this, and that is record the average or lowest FPS for the entire level, and if it's under a certain amount, disqualify from submitting a score.
Yes, thank you. I already thought about this, and it's a nice fix to prevent the scoreboards from being manipulated. But it doesn't solve the problem for the guy with the slow PC who doesn't wish to screw the system. So, I still need to make the game attempt to alleviate the problem at run-time. But, yes, in the end, scores with low frame rates will be ignored. I can't just use the lowest FPS metric, since sometimes dumb background processes bring the system to halt for a full second (*cough* Avast! *cough*) and this should be allowed if it's a short duration. BUT proper calculation could get tricky, since you wouldn't want someone taking advantage of this and ONLY slowing the PC during those times of heavy bullet dodging...

The only real solution here is to assume the player isn't retarded and running some CPU-devouring antivirus program while playing the game. Take care of your PC, guys .. :S

In my game XOP, I just make the game drop frames if it can't keep up. This way, if someone intentionally lags the game, all they get is a really choppy framerate, making it even harder to play.

SandtouchLC · Post by **SandtouchLC** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:21 am

Udderdude wrote: In my game XOP, I just make the game drop frames if it can't keep up. This way, if someone intentionally lags the game, all they get is a really choppy framerate, making it even harder to play.

And those who are innocent borderline cases (Celeron + Intel "Extreme" integrated graphics + Avast) just get a dropped frame here and there. We agree that's probably the best solution. Just get your tech support prepared to say "get a faster computer" to certain customers (not that many these days).

jonny5 · Post by **jonny5** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:44 am

what kind of computer are you running that avast, of all antivirus programs, is lagging it?

not too many people running single core CPU's under 2ghz anymore....even laptops

and seriously.....lag from avast?

ive never seen that....

sorry for the semi-OT

caught my attention

Kaspal · Post by **Kaspal** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:54 am

jonny5 wrote:what kind of computer are you running that avast, of all antivirus programs, is lagging it?

not too many people running single core CPU's under 2ghz anymore....even laptops

and seriously.....lag from avast?

ive never seen that....

sorry for the semi-OT

caught my attention

im on an AthlonXP 2000+ with 512 of RAM ... dont use Avast, but Kaspersky Internet Suite.

IF the program is not scanning shit, it wont bother my playin of doujin shmups on my PC... but if its scanning sometihng, whatever it is, it can really kill the PC for a couple secs to some mins.

im really thinin on changing this machine... its gettin on my nerves.

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:45 pm

The XNA Framework, by default, drops frames, assuming it's the Draw() function that is slowing the game down. However, since the Xbox 360's GPU is ridiculously fast, and because XNA runs on top of the Compact .NET Framework which barely has floating point support, ALMOST ALWAYS the source of the slow down is the CPU. So, as soon as the game gets hectic, and a frame is skipped, you stop seeing frames, since Draw() is no longer called, assuming the game will catch up. Since it's the Update() that is actually causing slowdown, it never catches up, and reaches the minimal forced level of 2 FPS. Yes, 2. So, you drop from 60 fps to 2 fps. This is a horrible implementation and I've notified the XNA Team about this.

My solution is to optimize the game like crazy. I want a kick ass experience so I've optimized just about everything. That's why I can have 2,000+ player bullets against 100's of enemies with 1,000's of explosions on screen at once at 60 fps. I've put a LOT of effort into this. However, given an engine that can do all this, it's hard not to make use of it, so we end up pushing it to its limits no matter how much I optimize it. So, there are going to be times that I may not be able to predict that cause slowdown. I want this to NEVER happen, but in a case that I didn't expect, which will likely happen in the hands of cream of the crop gamers, I don't want them to die because they are too good at playing the game. So, I implemented a fix that properly emulates the classic Slowdown Syndrome in which frames are NOT dropped. You see every frame, always. This really is the proper solution. Dropping frames are not good unless you can guarantee the action will never drop below 60 fps. While I have done so, I still want the game to work IF it does drop below 60 fps -- which may just be because of some background process eating up CPU.

P.S. Avast! doesn't slow the system down normally, but it decides to update whenever without warning. When it does so, it takes over the whole CPU for about 10 or 20 seconds.

This happens once a day.

Xonatron · Post by **Xonatron** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:51 pm

Should this thread be moved to the "chat" section? Right now it's in the "development" section. It has veered from development talk to general gaming talk. And I would like to have shmup fans not hanging out in the development forums checking it out. I was going to start a new thread, but maybe a move of this thread is in order instead.

Xonatron · Post by **Xonatron** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:17 am

New HD trailer...

Duality ZF April 2009 Trailer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TkG6J2CWvU

Kaspal · Post by **Kaspal** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:33 am

nice video... it makes me excited again about this game.

have you guys sent it for testing at MS already?

Kaiser · Post by **Kaiser** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:19 am

God dammit matt, you got me pumped there

. If i had a F` million dollars, i would give it to ya to port it to PSN (and leave the rest of that for yourself) : P

IronGiant · Post by **IronGiant** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:39 am

You know, when I first saw this I immediately assumed that it was for the PC, then I realised that it wasn't. BUT it looks absolutely incredible and is the only game that has, so far, made me think of buying an XBox ........ if only I could afford one!

Amazing work though, hope it sells by the ton. I'll definitely be buying a copy once I manage to invest in an XBox.

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:39 pm

Wow guys! Thanks for all the positive feedback! I'm glad you guys like what we are creating.

R-Typer, in the meantime, you can bug your Xbox-owning friends to grab a copy and play it on their systems!

IronGiant · Post by **IronGiant** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:49 pm

Jason wrote: R-Typer, in the meantime, you can bug your Xbox-owning friends to grab a copy and play it on their systems!

But they all have Wii's .............

Say, how about a Wiiware version?

dmauro · Post by **dmauro** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:18 pm

Nice. I'm glad you're finally showing off all the game modes. I look forward to Bullet Hell

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:41 pm

I'd like to see more footage of the bosses myself. And some levels with more structure to them.

John845 · Post by **John845** » Fri May 01, 2009 3:16 pm

Instant buy for me, if that hasn't been said already. How many Microsoft points will it cost again? Was it 400?

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Fri May 01, 2009 3:56 pm

Yes, the game costs 400 Microsoft points.

sjewkestheloon · Post by **sjewkestheloon** » Fri May 01, 2009 9:44 pm

Another brilliant looking teaser, can't wait to get to grips with this one.

MDY · Post by **MDY** » Tue May 05, 2009 8:14 am

Just seen the trailer - looks superb!
Any idea on a release date?

Xonatron · Post by **Xonatron** » Tue May 05, 2009 1:35 pm

Check out our first ad in XNA Roundup. We are mentioned four times including a trailer at the end:

XNA Roundup #16 Tank Strike, A Great Easter Egg Hunt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Bd0qWSjac

The content in trailer at the end took a lot of time to capture. You wouldn't think. So that's where our personal Xona Games trailer (April 2009) came from, the same content.

Release date is soon. We are doing ads, and we want the game out soon. That's all I'll say for now.

IronGiant · Post by **IronGiant** » Tue May 05, 2009 1:40 pm

Nice. Major kudos to you.

John845 · Post by **John845** » Mon May 18, 2009 6:43 am

So uh, hows the game going at this point? I'm assuming bug fixing and polishing is all that's needed.

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Mon May 18, 2009 1:08 pm

Reaction to our trailers show people are interesting in what's missing -- the crazy boss fights and bullet patterns. And, it IS missing. The boss fights really weren't as epic as we've wanted them to be. We DID make them fun, but we need additional functionality to produce multi-stage fights with unique bullet patterns. This is what I'm working on. Once I'm done, we'll be able to quickly generate and experiment with a lot of bullet pattern ideas. Since Duality ZF allows 1 to 8 fighters simultaneously, we have a wide range of difficulty modes to test, so it's slow, but the end result is going to be worth it!

Kaspal · Post by **Kaspal** » Mon May 18, 2009 3:26 pm

Jason wrote:Reaction to our trailers show people are interesting in what's missing -- the crazy boss fights and bullet patterns. And, it IS missing. The boss fights really weren't as epic as we've wanted them to be. We DID make them fun, but we need additional functionality to produce multi-stage fights with unique bullet patterns. This is what I'm working on. Once I'm done, we'll be able to quickly generate and experiment with a lot of bullet pattern ideas. Since Duality ZF allows 1 to 8 fighters simultaneously, we have a wide range of difficulty modes to test, so it's slow, but the end result is going to be worth it!

so, basically, the "may 2009" release date is also bogus?... sigh.

well, lets hope the wait is really worth it now. anyway thx for the info.

edit: im sorry... i just went to your website, and found out that the release date is now Summer '09. well, at least thats a wider timeframe.

John845 · Post by **John845** » Mon May 18, 2009 7:32 pm

I'm kind of glad you guys did realize that, that the boss fights didn't have any unique bullet patterns. It will be interesting to see what you guys can pull off with so many sprites on screen. Especially in the widescreen format the game is at, will be cool to see cave style bullet patterns with 8 ships flying everywhere + explosions + music = crazy. Ok I'm getting ahead of myself here, good luck though.

Also, any thoughts behind a level editor maybe? A simple background from any of the pre-made stages but you can place the enemies anywhere on the map. Also are there any "hazards" in the game? You know like walls that you can crash into. Ikaruga did this best with all the dodging you had to do on certain levels, would be cool to see people possibly remake those levels if a level editor where included.

Kaspal · Post by **Kaspal** » Mon May 18, 2009 7:58 pm

John845 wrote:I'm kind of glad you guys did realize that, that the boss fights didn't have any unique bullet patterns. It will be interesting to see what you guys can pull off with so many sprites on screen. Especially in the widescreen format the game is at, will be cool to see cave style bullet patterns with 8 ships flying everywhere + explosions + music = crazy. Ok I'm getting ahead of myself here, good luck though.

Also, any thoughts behind a level editor maybe? A simple background from any of the pre-made stages but you can place the enemies anywhere on the map. Also are there any "hazards" in the game? You know like walls that you can crash into. Ikaruga did this best with all the dodging you had to do on certain levels, would be cool to see people possibly remake those levels if a level editor where included.

with the time they are takin into polishing the project, what you just said would be the a real cool addition... but there is a problem tho, how would ppl distribute the levels, if M$ is such a bitch when it comes for ppl to distribute their own stuff?

John845 · Post by **John845** » Mon May 18, 2009 10:04 pm

There's a community game called Zoomaroom which lets you create your own levels and you can share it with other people. Its kind of arbitrary though. You can't just "upload" a level onto the internet space and have people download it like it is on the game Little Big Planet. You have to first "connect" with a person on the game then you can download the map off someone. Here's the trailer for the game I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzrvFWttxk

Also, it would be completely understandable if you guys reserve any level editing feature for "Game 2" since I realize you guys just want to finish the game at this point.

BPzeBanshee · Post by **BPzeBanshee** » Tue May 19, 2009 8:34 am

This game quite obviously has the screen benefits from Raiden (with the extra world on your left-and-right side) and that Thunder Force (with the extra scrolling background). Plus the dynamics of the planes are well-done making it something even a nitpicky person like myself gasp in awe at the quality and effort put into this game.

Well done, guys, you've made my decision to get a 360 all that more easier.

emphatic · Post by **emphatic** » Tue May 19, 2009 11:13 am

Don't know if this has been brought up yet, but, If I buy an Asian region XBOX 360, will I be able to play this?

Also, that latest trailer, along with the promise of evolved bullet patterns really wets my appetite for this game. You guys rock.

Xonatron · Post by **Xonatron** » Tue May 19, 2009 3:45 pm

Just a quick reply to address a few posts above before I skip them...

1) Sorry about the additional delay. Our ads, which have costed us thousands, have now run out. We were planning to release Duality ZF at the end of it, and we are now not going to. I hope this explains that we are not just a bunch of immature children working on this game. When we delay, it affects us greatly. But, what would affect us more is releaseing a shoddy product.

2) No level editor, but thanks for raising the idea. Who knows about future sequels...

3) The only way to tell if you can buy Duailty ZF on the system in question, is to hook it up and see if you can access a Community Games tab (next to the Arcade tab). I'm sorry that this doesn't help you figure it out beforehand. I'm sure someone knows if an Asian region Xbox 360 would have access to it, but I'm sorry that we don't! We are relatively new to that sort of thing. I started a thread on xna.com just for you: http://forums.xna.com/forums/t/31557.aspx

4) Thank you for all the comments, compliments, and patience.

Kaspal · Post by **Kaspal** » Tue May 19, 2009 7:44 pm

Matthew Doucette wrote:Just a quick reply to address a few posts above before I skip them...

1) Sorry about the additional delay. Our ads, which have costed us thousands, have now run out. We were planning to release Duality ZF at the end of it, and we are now not going to. I hope this explains that we are not just a bunch of immature children working on this game. When we delay, it affects us greatly. But, what would affect us more is releaseing a shoddy product.

2) No level editor, but thanks for raising the idea. Who knows about future sequels...

3) The only way to tell if you can buy Duailty ZF on the system in question, is to hook it up and see if you can access a Community Games tab (next to the Arcade tab). I'm sorry that this doesn't help you figure it out beforehand. I'm sure someone knows if an Asian region Xbox 360 would have access to it, but I'm sorry that we don't! We are relatively new to that sort of thing. I started a thread on xna.com just for you: http://forums.xna.com/forums/t/31557.aspx

4) Thank you for all the comments, compliments, and patience.

1). its ok... i cooled down about this already... is just that i really want to play this thing that seeing it delayed time and time again makes me crazy... anyway, just make sure that the delay is worth it (and dont post more temptative release dates, that makes me sick).

2). a level editor at this stage of developement could break the game, so its ok if it doesnt come with one... just keep it in the to-do list for an update or whatever.

3). its possible if you setup an american account into your XBox360, and feed it with american MSPs. if the account is a japanese one, i dont know, but i think its not possible.

4). no problem. read point one for more hehe.