Triggerzone's Top 25 Shooters of all time

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat May 09, 2009 6:39 am

It's just, I wish they had. Not that UD is bad, I'd much rather play it than ESPGaluda.

Jockel · Post by **Jockel** » Sat May 09, 2009 10:00 am

jpj wrote:everybody else likes it, so it's lost any potential esotoric nerd cred

it's a good game

I'm not that type of guy, but i don't like Ikaruga either.
In fact i loved it, when it arrived on the Gamecube, but i was not playing
too seriously for score (like 8-9mil). But back then i did only play a few
"popular" shooters like Super R-Type; methinks Ikaruga is only good if
you don't know any better. Today, i'll put any Raizing or Cave game
(only counting shooters, no dance simulations ^_~) over it.
It's just an really really anal memorizer. That's not fun. It's work.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sat May 09, 2009 10:38 am

personally, i don't find chaining difficult. but irrespective of the scoring, the stages, enemy designs and patterns, the music, the graphics, everything is so highly polished and comes together cohesively so well. it's so radically different from anything else at that time, and it's a real one of a kind. you can't say that about a lot of shmups

if you find the game too easy, and there aren't enough bullets to dodge, then play Hard Mode - that's what it's there for

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat May 09, 2009 10:48 am

jpj wrote:it's so radically different from anything else at that time,

In what way?

Jockel · Post by **Jockel** » Sat May 09, 2009 11:51 am

jpj wrote:but irrespective of the scoring, the stages, enemy designs and patterns, the music, the graphics, everything is so highly polished and comes together cohesively so well.

At least we can agree here

Plasmo · Post by **Plasmo** » Sat May 09, 2009 12:14 pm

Ikaruga is the perfect game.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sat May 09, 2009 12:30 pm

Rob wrote:
jpj wrote:it's so radically different from anything else at that time,
In what way?

the bullet-absorption, the polarity system, the suicide bullets, dot-eater play, chaining system, only one weapon, no bomb, no power-ups, etc. even now, people regularly describe it as a hybrid of shmup and puzzle game.

simple, elegant, addictive, beautiful, innovative. there was an interview with Ikeda recently, and he described ikaruga as a work of genius. i'd agree

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Sat May 09, 2009 12:32 pm

That Swedish list is one of the best I've ever seen. As far as I can tell, only 4 games are placed too high up in it. That's an incredibly low overratedness-quota. Also, the list gets extra credit for not having Radiant Silvergun in it.

Under Defeat is a nice game, but it is one of the games that always gets some extra votes from people who only "sort of" like it, because it happens to be a very pretty game.

The same holds true for Ikaruga. It gets extra votes from aestheticians. Otherwise, I agree with both Jockel and Rob.

Jockel wrote:It's just an really really anal memorizer. That's not fun. It's work.

Rob wrote:A game that people enjoy by watching a video of someone else playing it.

I always find it funny when people point out that you are free to ignore the chaining and enjoy Ikaruga as a "regular" shmup. There's a huge contradiction here, Mr. Wright. As a matter of fact, the stages are so tightly and completely built around chaining that the game actually becomes far less enjoyable when you ignore the chaining. So either you like real anal chaining or you hate the game. Simple as that.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sat May 09, 2009 12:58 pm

first thing i thought when i looked at the swedish list (other than the ketsui love) was that DOJ was really low. i don't know what it is with this forum's obsession with "overratedness" and pre-occupation with telling people they shouldn't be enjoying certain games that they enjoy. instead, i would be more interested in why games i like weren't enjoyed by others. under-exposure? gameplay issues? better examples in a similar style?

it's like you're basing your opinion on a list as to how negative your reaction to it is; rather than the positive points you agree on

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Sat May 09, 2009 9:17 pm

jpj wrote:[firsts in Ikaruga include] the bullet-absorption, the polarity system, the suicide bullets, dot-eater play, chaining system, only one weapon, no bomb, no power-ups, etc.

So basically the polarity system and dot-eater

No powerups is pretty ballsy though

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat May 09, 2009 10:13 pm

jpj, these simple (bullet invincibility) gimmick + scoring system types of shooters were already being done, like Psyvariar and Mars Matrix. In Psyvariar you are encouraged to spin over bullets with frequent (earned) invincibility. In MM you can also absorb bullets and do more with them. Both have the minimal design Ikaruga has when it comes to power-ups, bombs - MM is controlled by a single button. It's just a hybrid of those ideas with Silvergun's chaining.

Psyvariar even looks like Ikaruga. Level up max chain level up max chain. O_O

FIL · Post by **FIL** » Sat May 09, 2009 10:36 pm

Ikaruga is a lot more brown than most shmups.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Sat May 09, 2009 10:43 pm

Oh, dot eater is just bullet absorption...again already done.

The only thing I'm not able to place in an earlier shooter is the polarity system. D-FORCE

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat May 09, 2009 11:15 pm

Ed Oscuro wrote:D-FORCE

Hell yeah.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Sun May 10, 2009 3:27 am

Rob wrote:
Ed Oscuro wrote:D-FORCE
Hell yeah.

Channeling Michael Douglas for some reason here. Although that's a different D.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sun May 10, 2009 10:51 am

you're misquoting me, i never said ikaruga was the first to do any of those things. i just said the game is radically different from other stuff of the same time, which it was. a game is more than the sum of it's parts and ikaruga is a totally different experience to mars matrix or psyvariar

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Sun May 10, 2009 10:53 am

i like how the scoring system in ikaruga necessitated the complete lack of challenge in the first two levels

wait no it didn't, they were just dumb for art's sake

gradius v treasure's best

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun May 10, 2009 11:21 am

jpj wrote:a game is more than the sum of it's parts and ikaruga is a totally different experience to mars matrix or psyvariar

It is definitely a different experience, especially when you put on the CD of whale songs and get the incense burning.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sun May 10, 2009 11:28 am

it's all about ketsui this year

powerfuran · Post by **powerfuran** » Sun May 10, 2009 1:36 pm

jpj wrote:anything similar on the french o italian boards...?

I was planning to do something similar, but seriously, I'm afraid....what if Ikaruga gets the first spot?! The whole list would be not so nerdy, you unterstand...

What I just can't get is the transition in meaning of the term "overrated"... it's something like "hey wait, we can't say that the game X is bad, because it doesn't appear to be so bad, let's choose another word to say that it sucks.... I got it, let's say its overrated!"

I'm playing Blazing Star atm and it's way more about memorizing stuff and patterns than Ikaruga. At least that's my perception of the game. The same goes for Area 88, as nothing changes in the game progression.

Sonic R · Post by **Sonic R** » Sun May 10, 2009 1:58 pm

Its funny how people still think 'overrated' some how means that it sucks…

In reality, there is no way that something being overrated can suck or not be good. If something is classed overrated by a mass of fans, its usually because said thing is held in high acclaim among people and such people proceed to lay praise to such. Some time, people know of something to be good and don't need people to continue to shovel the praise to the masses and after a while it becomes redundant…

Danbo · Post by **Danbo** » Sun May 10, 2009 2:41 pm

I just don't find Ikaruga fun to play at all, either for survival or for scoring. Although, I admit that the fact that it hit mainstream popularity may mean I hate it a bit more than I would otherwise

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sun May 10, 2009 2:51 pm

i will also admit one reason i vote for it is because i like seeing the same old people get a sandy vagina about it

i'm still not sure i get what you mean about overratedness though sonic.

you should do it powerfuran

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Sun May 10, 2009 4:23 pm

jpj wrote:i'm still not sure i get what you mean about overratedness though sonic.

If someone says "game XY is overrated", he doesn't necessarily mean that the game in question does suck. He just expresses the opinion that there's some undeniable quality to be found in the aforementioned game, but that said quality doesn't really seem enough to justify game XY being as extraordinarily popular as it is.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sun May 10, 2009 6:15 pm

oh okay. like powerfuran, i think it's a bit difficult for the discussion to go any further when you use an unquantitative term. i think ikaruga is good because it has mainstream appeal. it's the game that got me, and i'm sure countless other people, into the genre in the first place. same way i'm sure someone older might view r-type, gradius, raiden, etc. so when i make a list, i think of the 25 games i would show to someone new to the genre. like a shmup manifesto

somebody else might want to make a list based on historical importance, and that's fine too. but there plenty of reasons why people like ikaruga other than just nice graphics

the lists should just be for fun. don't get bent out of shape about what other people enjoy

Enhasa · Post by **Enhasa** » Sun May 10, 2009 8:00 pm

"Overrated" is really a much more quantitative term than "good." Good is pure personal subjectivity. Overrated is that + aggregated public opinion (look say, here). Since I can without a doubt say that I wouldn't give Ocarina of Time anywhere near a 97, I can say it's overrated with much more certainty than I could even say it's good or bad. If people are wondering why it seems popular games are always targeted for being overrated, that's just simple mathematics. With a huge sample size on a normal distribution, most games are by definition "average," and OOT doesn't have much room to NOT be overrated. Likewise, some of the most underrated games are ones like Daikatana which are shat upon and considered at the very bottom, but are really more like mediocre.

The trick is that if you love Ikaruga (#1 rated shmup) or OOT, to just acknowledge that yeah, it probably is overrated (if it's #2 for you, it's already overrated after all), but who cares? It shouldn't affect your personal enjoyment of the game. It's stupid to actually be bothered by what anyone else thinks, or to put too much into any one person's opinion, but it is useful to pay attention to what you personally think is overrated or underrated (not exactly the same thing as popularity). If you are a developer or publisher who cares at all about making money, you can exploit the market this way. If you want to sell a XBLA game, don't make a new shmup, because it would take a lot of effort to balance out a great one but would be underrated and sell poorly anyway. OTOH, you could slap any old terrible game with no effort and dev time with say, Japanese wash painting art style and atmosphere (like Okami), have an overrated game, and do much better.

Rob wrote:Anything in the top 50 for G.rev looks funny because they're second rate. Don't really care about Takumi (Capcom), but you can bet Zero Gunner 2 spanks Under Defeat. Even if ZG2 should've been better (harder). Under Defeat has a cooler case and is more collectible, though.

I don't really care about UD vs ZG2, since neither of them are in my top25 anyway. Nothing second-rate about Senko though. Like I said, slot Senko at #10 instead of UD and it smells great.

ZOM · Post by **ZOM** » Sun May 10, 2009 8:10 pm

Raizing titles are too low on that list.

IMHO a too huge gap between garegga & batrider. Also despite that, I'm surprised Ibara made it into the list.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun May 10, 2009 8:36 pm

jpj wrote:i think ikaruga is good because it has mainstream appeal.

Unfortunately the length of the game combined with the unlimited continues makes it a short experience.

Ocarina of Time is underrated.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sun May 10, 2009 8:51 pm

so is everything that makes it onto a top 25 list overrated by default? i guess i just don't see how popularity should be seen as a negative point, unless you are saying "game X is overrated, and i say this because...". even if you agree with their reasons or not, at least it's interesting to talk about then

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun May 10, 2009 8:54 pm

so is everything that makes it onto a top 25 list overrated by default?

Absolutely not. Just Ikaruga and Mushi.