7th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Discussion thread

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:13 am

WarpZone wrote:Surprised at the favorable votes for Dangun so far after iirc being sidelined a lot in the past. Was there some kind of competition/resurgence of interest in the past year?

STGT08.

twalden wrote:Pardon my forum noobness. Anyone can get in on this, as long as they're experienced with a majority of the titles from previous years?

Yes.

nimitz · Post by **nimitz** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:27 pm

The Coop wrote:
Herr Schatten wrote:
nimitz wrote:Also, I think it would be nice to have a thread where people can comment their top 25 list, like add annotations next to some games, i think this would be a lot more entertaining to read people's lists with this kind of annotations.
I think this is a great idea.
Until the inevitable "That's you're reason? Disqualify him!" bullshit starts up.

Well, no one would be forced to post in such a thread, and I don't think people here are THAT childish.

Mortificator · Post by **Mortificator** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:38 pm

Top 25:
37/43 = 86%

Honorable mentions:
35/39 = 90%

My penis is also pretty big. Just putting that out there.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:22 pm

*Cough*

Hint 1: Scoring system

*Vanish*

kengou · Post by **kengou** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:17 pm

It seems like there's a big backlash this year against Cave and more specifically DDP. I hardly see DDP in any lists, and Cave is a lot less prominent so far than it has been in the past.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:55 pm

i think last year someone started a "DDP is overrated and chaining sucks" thread or similar just around the time that voting started, which probably caused the opposite reaction to what was intended

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:41 pm

kengou wrote:I hardly see DDP in any lists,

It's still on lots of lists unfortunately. DOJ might be splitting the Pachi vote a little bit.

kengou · Post by **kengou** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:26 am

Rob wrote:
kengou wrote:I hardly see DDP in any lists,
It's still on lots of lists unfortunately. DOJ might be splitting the Pachi vote a little bit.

very well then, I don't see it high on hardly any lists so far.

I'd love to see more Cave love this year though.

Enhasa · Post by **Enhasa** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:54 am

I'd love to see more Dinosaur Comics where a t-rex steps on a house and then talks with an orange dinosaur.

neist wrote:And Granada is a great game. Second favorite Genesis game.

What's your favorite?

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:56 am

kengou wrote:I don't see it high on hardly any lists so far.

I think this is how it gets so high overall. Almost everyone kind of likes it.

Enhasa · Post by **Enhasa** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:02 am

OTOH Senko no Ronde is on two people's lists so far and #1 on both.

DDP style vote-gathering is much more effective.

incognoscente · Post by **incognoscente** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:36 pm

Turrican, in response to your questions of eligibility:
Alien Breed, Chaos Engine, Gauntlet, Legend of Zelda -- no; as all four games require key items for progression, I call them action-adventure games.
Assault Suits Valken - no; it is a platform-shooter. If it had unlimited jumpjet time, I wouldn't mind it receiving votes.
Thexder - if I could stop dying, I might be able to tell you. :( Could you please summarize why you're asking about this game?

You attacked my argument on the exclusion of platform-shooters for being weak. As argumentation I agree; but what I wrote was meant as an explanation, not an argument. I thought that since so many members were against the inclusion of platform-shooters in the past, whatever rationale I might give would be superfluous. I am not personally opposed to platform-shooters being counted as on-topic*, but nor do I actively seek their inclusion. It's difficult for me to write an argument for something on which I am unable to form an opinion. I expected people would feel relieved by my decision to not include platform-shooters this year. I am a bit surprised to see a complaint about my decision to not change something from last year, especially from someone who it seems would hate if I did make such a change.

Regarding the rest of your post: I do not believe that there is one single language or method for helping voters to know what is and what isn't eligible. It appears that you believe differently or, at the least, that you believe your method is superior. I cannot expect an argument of these positions to progress into more than a circle. If you would like to point out categories or games that I have forgotten, you may do so. If the purpose of your argument is to issue a veiled complaint that I have elected to employ my own system instead of yours, I can't say that I expect to be swayed.

On the bright side, your post allowed me to clarify two rules, so I consider the net result positive.

*In issue 3 of Zzap!64, shmup is defined as "A Zzap-coined term to replace the long-winded 'shoot-em-up'. Any game involving stacks of blasting and zapping." Both terms are used interchangeably through various issues of the publication. Thus, when issue 38 calls Gryzor an "enjoyable shoot 'em up," the exclusion of platform-shooters from the category shmup can be cast into doubt on etymological grounds.

incognoscente · Post by **incognoscente** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:00 pm

Voter eligibility modifications outlined on the previous page are now in effect. If you were on the border or excluded before, please check your eligibility again.

nimitz wrote:Also, I think it would be nice to have a thread where people can comment their top 25 list, like add annotations next to some games, i think this would be a lot more entertaining to read people's lists with this kind of annotations.

If you wish to write a few lines of commentary below your list, you may. Replies to other lists, for example, "Incog, do you really think Bosconian is better than Dodonpachi?!" should be done in this discussion thread.

This year's first Voting Campaign (Ketsui) has been listed in the Discussion Thread top post. I will add others as I see them. If you want to ensure I don't miss your campaign, send me a private message.

New voting rule in effect. I neglected to write it before because I thought it was too obvious and didn't want to insult everyone's intelligence. :(
09. You may not vote for games that you don't believe are shmups. If you do not think that Granada is a shmup, you may not vote for it. However, as long as the votes of others respect the categories outlined in rule #08, your opinion shall have no bearing on the eligibility of other votes.

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:22 pm

We need a discussion about whether or not games like After Burner II and Galaxy Force II qualify as shmups. I think it would be an interesting conversation.

incognoscente · Post by **incognoscente** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:29 pm

Go for it! That's another matter on which I feel I have no opinion, but I'm very interested in hearing your opinion and those of others.

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:31 pm

Done and done.

RGC · Post by **RGC** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:40 pm

I've changed my ESPGaluda vote to ESPGaluda PS2 Arrange. I don't care for the original arcade experience anywhere near as much as the 'bonus' playstation edition, and I don't want my vote to go to the arcade version since it does not have the Arrange mode. So can these two be treated as separate?

jonny5 · Post by **jonny5** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:42 pm

RGC wrote:I've changed my ESPGaluda vote to ESPGaluda PS2 Arrange. I don't care for the original arcade experience anywhere near as much as the 'bonus' playstation edition, and I don't want my vote to go to the arcade version since it does not have the Arrange mode. So can these two be treated as separate?

agreed....not a huge fan of galuda, but arrange mode is the bee's knee's

Post by **Shatterhand** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:54 pm

Mortificator wrote:Top 25:
37/43 = 86%

Honorable mentions:
35/39 = 90%

My penis is also pretty big. Just putting that out there.

Top 25:
40/43
Winds of Thunder and Gates of Thunder was played only once by me a long time ago. Never played Under Defeat

Honorable mentions:
37/39
Never player Imperishable Night and Ketsu

All the other games I believe I do know enough.

My penis is small though.

EDIT: I don't think Thexder could be considered a shmup. The emphasis is heavy on platform-action, and there aren't even any bullets on the screen. Your "hero" fires a laser that's automatically aimed at the enemies, and not one single enemy fire at you as far as I remember.

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:14 pm

Shatterhand wrote: and not one single enemy fire at you as far as I remember.

Wait it always was shoot-em-up, right?
Since when do enemies have to fire at you in that concept?*

*that said 99.99% of those nasties tend to do just that instead of doing their jobs properly and serve as me popcorn.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:38 pm

incognoscente wrote:Turrican, in response to your questions of eligibility:
Alien Breed, Chaos Engine, Gauntlet, Legend of Zelda -- no; as all four games require key items for progression, I call them action-adventure games.
Assault Suits Valken - no; it is a platform-shooter. If it had unlimited jumpjet time, I wouldn't mind it receiving votes.
Thexder - if I could stop dying, I might be able to tell you. Could you please summarize why you're asking about this game?

Okay, but bear in mind that I still don't agree with this line of thinking. More in specific what we call "key" is just the fulfillment of a certain goal in order to proceed. In Chaos Engine many "keys" are of this nature: destroy such and such enemy and the path will open. This is virtually the same method of progression seen in Thunderforce II, for example. Therefore I still am confused as what exactly makes Granada more eligible than Alien Breed.

Edit: oh, I forgot to mention that a good chunk of Bangai-O stages are definitely on the puzzler side of things - in some you push crates to open an exit and no firing is required. The Guardian Legend has been allowed only because of TGL passoword: usually we keep the half-shmup titles out...

I am a bit surprised to see a complaint about my decision to not change something from last year, especially from someone who it seems would hate if I did make such a change.

Don't be surprised: I was trying to say that I am not convinced by your logic, whether it's for inclusion or exclusion.

Regarding the rest of your post: I do not believe that there is one single language or method for helping voters to know what is and what isn't eligible. It appears that you believe differently or, at the least, that you believe your method is superior. I cannot expect an argument of these positions to progress into more than a circle. If you would like to point out categories or games that I have forgotten, you may do so. If the purpose of your argument is to issue a veiled complaint that I have elected to employ my own system instead of yours, I can't say that I expect to be swayed

There's nothing veiled in my posts

I am not trying to imply anything, and If I could ban the word "superiority" from the dictionary I would do so. I am just expressing my opinion here; I preferred the previous rules because they were mostly based on some geometric criteria. That was nullstar's intention way back then. It may very well be that speaking of axes and planes doesn't change people opinions, but somewhere a line must be draw, and the previous one was a lot more clear than the one I see now - as I tried to explain above in regards to "keys" (temporary game objectives).

Of course my writing here has no intent to sway you; you are the mod, you choose the rules, all's well with the world. I'm just saying I don't like them and hope for a return to the previous ones in future. If I'll sound convincing to others, there's a chance that these rules will be reconsidered.

On the bright side, your post allowed me to clarify two rules, so I consider the net result positive.

Cheers - that's what discussion's for ^_^

P.S. I'm interested in Thexder because I stumbled in a half-similar game years ago. Thexder comes with unlimited jetpack propulsion, and the complex stages have separate goals just like Bangai-O. I suppose it's eligible then.

emphatic · Post by **emphatic** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:45 pm

Would ya'll consider Rush & Crash / The Speed Rumbler a shmup? I think it's a really charming game even though it's suffering heavily from "cheap deaths" that Capcom used heavily in their games 'round 1985, and when playing it, the "inertia" brought on by the acceleration factor of the car itself can make things pretty tough at times. Even still, it's a really cool game.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:05 pm

incognoscente wrote:New voting rule in effect. I neglected to write it before because I thought it was too obvious and didn't want to insult everyone's intelligence.
09. You may not vote for games that you don't believe are shmups. If you do not think that Granada is a shmup, you may not vote for it. However, as long as the votes of others respect the categories outlined in rule #08, your opinion shall have no bearing on the eligibility of other votes.

While we're here, I don't like much this ninth rule too. What is exactly the purpose of it? "Shmup" isn't something I believe or not believe to exist: it's just a classification, and therefore arbitrary. If this years' rules allow some games to be voted, I don't see why I should be prevented to vote for them just because I happen to think they don't fit the genre. If you mods say it does fit, then what's the purpose of a further limitation? This year allows voting for Guevara - it's all too obvious that it'll get all my vote pie

I don't consider it to be a shmup, just to be an arena shooter that is allowed by today's rules. Why are you limiting my fun?

Chi_Ryu · Post by **Chi_Ryu** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:15 am

emphatic wrote:Would ya'll consider Rush & Crash / The Speed Rumbler a shmup? I think it's a really charming game even though it's suffering heavily from "cheap deaths" that Capcom used heavily in their games 'round 1985, and when playing it, the "inertia" brought on by the acceleration factor of the car itself can make things pretty tough at times. Even still, it's a really cool game.

I'm a big fan of Rush & Crash (whored it as a teenager), and the inclusion this year of Ikari Warriors and the like definitely open this one up for discussion - the problematic aspect is the time constraint (the later stages can become somewhat more of a race than a shooter).

My personal feeling is that if Ikari Warriors etc. is included, then so should Rush & Crash.

nimitz · Post by **nimitz** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:54 am

also, what about Devil World

RollingSkull · Post by **RollingSkull** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:48 am

I'm just pulling for a Castle Shikigami 3 upset. :3

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:17 am

If Granada is eligible, then that must mean that The Speed Rumbler is.

And Jackal / Top Gunner too!

Edit: And Bloodreign was wondering about Namco's Battle City (Tank Force is another game in that series).

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:05 am

incognoscente wrote:(...)
Alien Breed, Chaos Engine, Gauntlet, Legend of Zelda -- no; as all four games require key items for progression, I call them action-adventure games.
(...)

FWIW, if the action-adventure category/ sub-genre is going to act as the main catch-all group, then an alternate 'filter' besides collection of keys can be applied, e.g. a scoring system must be present, at least a baseline scoring system. And this filter can act as the dividing line for the aforementioned games... (2 would pass and 2 would fail in the above example)...

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:22 pm

can votes for Ketsui, as well as Ketsui Death Label, be counted as the same entry, in the same way that Ibara and Ibara Black Label were last year (despite them being very different titles)?

--Team KDF

nimitz · Post by **nimitz** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:50 pm

Also can votes for Gradius 3 arcade and Gradius III snes, be put together. After all, Konami tried to make a faithful port, not a different game (and on a 16bit system, which is not THAT far from the arcade hardware).