7th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Discussion thread

[The Coop]

Does this mean Granada for the Genesis is eligible again? It tweaked me a bit when it was removed from the "official" shmups list a couple years back.

[incognoscente]

So, I take it that you must at the very least have played 80% of the top 25s and 70% of the honorable mentions? I was wondering because I don't have that high percentages (mostly due to not having say, a japanese ps2 or saturn, etc.) Sorry if you've already tried to handle this issue as much as you could

As it is written now, yes. I don't mind changing the percentages a bit lower, but more instructive to me would be an inventory of those that have voted. Since I haven't been purchasing new releases since about the time of Mushihime-sama (PS2), I assumed that my own level of experience skewed to the lower end of most of the forum veterans. I don't know for certain, though.

I know it takes a bit of time, but if each voter can honestly find what percentage of each list he or she has played, then I might be able to ask a more reasonable percentage out of potential voters. I suppose I could have polled several prominent members before going live with the poll, but it somehow didn't occur to me at the time.

In the meantime, Zaarock, please check your private messages.

NAM 1975 and Cabal are called "carnival shooters"

Thank you, sir! I have updated the voting rules to include carnival shooters as an off-limits category.

Does this mean Granada for the Genesis is eligible again?

Yes.

[neist]

Does this mean Granada for the Genesis is eligible again? It tweaked me a bit when it was removed from the "official" shmups list a couple years back.

Though he's already mentioned it, I can't help but say "YAY".

Definitely one of the better newly included games.

[The Coop]

Does this mean Granada for the Genesis is eligible again?

Yes.

Sweeeeeet.

[jonny5]

ketsui/end

[Enhasa]

The thing about self-screening is that it shows humility and thoughtfulness, so the average person who screens himself out is more qualified than some people who actually vote. neist, your multidirectional shooter expertise is exactly why I think someone like you should vote, or at least put up a list in this thread. Niche subgenres are naturally never going to place well, so there is no need to worry that their inclusion would skew things at the top. Then again, I just like looking at people's lists more than I care about the final results anyway.


incog: I think the more common term for those games like Blood Bros is gallery shooter. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought games like Psyvariar Medium Unit and Revision were combined (like Ibara/Black Label etc) to prevent vote splitting. So it doesn't matter which you specify or if you leave it out.

Does this mean Granada for the Genesis is eligible again?

Yes.

Sweeeeeet.

Sweet, this means a whopping two people will include Granada now! Now time to stump for Twinkle Tale.

[DJ Incompetent]

Somebody please explain the appeal of placeholding. Like, what grade are you in?

[incognoscente]

I think the more common term for those games like Blood Bros is gallery shooter. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought games like Psyvariar Medium Unit and Revision were combined (like Ibara/Black Label etc) to prevent vote splitting. So it doesn't matter which you specify or if you leave it out.

True, gallery shooter does make sense for Blood Bros. If I use that, though, then I need a new term for the Space Invaders/Galaga/Space Bomber type of game. Any suggestions?


Regarding Psyvariar Medium Unit and Revision: I purchased the SuperLite edition of Revision, so I've never directly compared it with Medium Unit. I admit my ignorance to the precise differences between the two. If the stages and bosses are reasonably the same, then I won't split the votes. Raiden II and Raiden DX are counted as different games, but Batsugun and Batsugun Special Version aren't. On which side should Psyvariar MU and Revision fall?

[jpj]

Somebody please explain the appeal of placeholding. Like, what grade are you in?

the strategists have begun already

[BulletMagnet]

Somebody please explain the appeal of placeholding. Like, what grade are you in?

Mainly so I can toss up an "incomplete" list at first and then edit and tighten it up - easier than doing it on a piece of paper or some such thing, since I'm only making one post either way.

As for your second question, I'm not supposed to talk to strangers.

[Enhasa]

True, gallery shooter does make sense for Blood Bros. If I use that, though, then I need a new term for the Space Invaders/Galaga/Space Bomber type of game. Any suggestions?

I've heard fixed shooter (my preference) or single-screen shooter.

Regarding Psyvariar Medium Unit and Revision: I purchased the SuperLite edition of Revision, so I've never directly compared it with Medium Unit. I admit my ignorance to the precise differences between the two. If the stages and bosses are reasonably the same, then I won't split the votes. Raiden II and Raiden DX are counted as different games, but Batsugun and Batsugun Special Version aren't. On which side should Psyvariar MU and Revision fall?

It's probably closest to Ibara and Ibara Black Label, which is in between your two examples (closer to the Raiden DX side though). I think there was actually some talk last year about why Black Label is combined. I agree with this move though, because vote-splitting is a bad idea.

The fundamental difference between MU and Revision is that in MU, you can only buzz each bullet once. Revision removed this restriction (which is how it is in 2), leading to higher and incomparable scores. Of course, the level requirements were changed to balance this, but it's still a bit easier. Other changes were a new "replay" mode, short bomb, some bullet pattern changes, and updated graphics and music and intro/ending. The stages and bosses are the same (besides four additional remixed versions of stages in replay mode), although the stage order is changed a bit.

I actually admire the elegance and sticking-to-principles of the one-buzz-per-bullet MU approach more, but like most people I think I enjoy Revision's approach more due to increased flexibility. For me, it's similar to the elegance of Rayforce's lower-level lockon vs flexibility of Souky lockon that allows same-level as well.

[Arvandor]

I know it takes a bit of time, but if each voter can honestly find what percentage of each list he or she has played, then I might be able to ask a more reasonable percentage out of potential voters.

Ask and ye shall recieve, or some such bullshit.

All previous top 25 games: 40/43 = 93%
All previous honorable mentions: 29/39 = 74%

And I still consider myself one of the less experienced forum members. I feel more and more qualified every year though ^_^ It's certainly getting harder to stick to only 25 games.

[incognoscente]

Thanks, Arvandor.

I need a new term for the Space Invaders/Galaga/Space Bomber type of game. Any suggestions?

I've heard fixed shooter (my preference) or single-screen shooter.

Ah. "Fixed Shooter" is a good one. The rules post has been updated.

It's probably closest to Ibara and Ibara Black Label, which is in between your two examples (closer to the Raiden DX side though). I think there was actually some talk last year about why Black Label is combined. I agree with this move though, because vote-splitting is a bad idea.

Good memory! Somehow, I hadn't read the last few pages of last year's Top 25 discussion thread. Had I done so, I would have carried over last year's position in my reply to MadScientist: to not split the vote for Psyvariar Medium Unit and Psyvariar Revision. Thanks for that heads-up and also for outlining the differences between the two titles.

[Sonic R]

My stats:

Top 25:
39-43 @ .906

Honorable mention:
30-39 @ .769

Hard to believe that I own 39 games (40 if counting Mobil Light Force) of the top 25s! I don't have Batrider, ESPRade, or Guwange… I used to play alot of Batrider back in the Summer of '07 though…

[MadScientist]

Top 25:
35 of 43 = .814

Honorable mention:
34 of 39 = .872

Thanks for the answers to my earlier questions. In my MAME-front-end, I just have Blood Bros. etc.. in a 'run 'n gun' playlist, but, to use a taxonomy term, I'm more of a lumper than a splitter (i.e. the less genres the better). That reminds me, Brad Cook's review of Blood Bros. for All Game Guide is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen - he gets anal about the historical timeline of the game FFS!!!

http://www.answers.com/topic/blood-brothers-game

[kengou]

Top 25s:
32/43 = 74.41 %

Honorable Mentions:
21/39 = 53.85%

Many of the games I haven't played, like the thunderforces and the R-Types, I've played only one of that particular series and that was enough to know that I wouldn't like the rest. I'd consider myself familiar enough with the R-Type series to know I don't like any of them, for example. Or, if I know that I generally don't like older Horis, then I know that I don't like stuff like Gate of Thunder and just don't bother to play it. And I've certainly played more shmups than the ones featured on these lists. For instance I've played Truxton II but not the first one, and only the first one is featured on the list. So yeah, I'd be hesitant to base someone's eligibility to vote for their favorite 25 shmups entirely on what percentage of the previous top 25 and honorable mentions they've played. It doesn't seem like a great measurement.

Still, I guess I won't be voting this year?

[Ruldra]

Top 25:
18/43 = 41%

Honorable Mention:
13/39 = 33%

Only accounting for games I really know. Not counting games I played a long time ago or played briefly.

Guess I'm out.

[Turrican]

I know one person that will grumble, but two people that will cheer. It will be... interesting.

Well, I do certainly hope that you're referring to me, because I'm grumbling right now.

[BIL]

75% and 71%. Hmm, missed the first percentage and just made the second. I'll leave my vote's fate up to you guys, of course (edit: thanks incognoscente, guess I'm in this year!). It did occur to me that after sitting out 07 and 08, I should maybe give it one more year. Getting there.

[incognoscente]

Thanks for your stats, Sonic R, MadScientist, kengou, Ruldra, and Bill!

Many of the games I haven't played, like the thunderforces and the R-Types, I've played only one of that particular series and that was enough to know that I wouldn't like the rest. I've certainly played more shmups than the ones featured on these lists. For instance I've played Truxton II but not the first one, and only the first one is featured on the list. So yeah, I'd be hesitant to base someone's eligibility to vote for their favorite 25 shmups entirely on what percentage of the previous top 25 and honorable mentions they've played. It doesn't seem like a great measurement.

A form of this rule has been present even in years past, but I think its requirements were so high that many people summarily dismissed the rule. I've certainly relaxed the percentages, but I feel there is much work to be done.

One thing I have noticed about your data, Bill's, and Zaarock's (via PM) is that with two simple changes, you'd all easily be eligible. Change one is counting the lists together instead of separately. Since a number of non-danmaku shooters make it to the Honorable Mention list but not the Top 25, such a change could help someone like God or Zaarock. The other change is to lower the total requirement to 50%. Treated this way, the combined lists could be thought of as similar to a random sampling of shooters. If, out of a random set, you have played more than 49%, then you've played a ton of shooters and I want you to vote. If, out of our less random (and sometimes redundant-looking) list, you have played more than 49%, you've undoubtedly played far more shooters than just our list and I want you to vote.

Another option I could pursue is to create a separate list altogether with broader categories, less redundancy by series and developer, and a few extra niches more commonly overlooked by the Top 25 and ask potential voters to evaluate themselves based on that. The requirement for a passing grade on such a broad test would most likely be somewhere lower than 50%, so it would need a good deal of fine-tuning, too.


I am also open to hearing other ideas, both from voters and from non-voters. I do not consider this rule immutable.

[Turrican]

Nothing is cast as shmup because that term means slightly different things to different people.

However, we could always look back at the origin of the term to see if any controversial category of games has ever been branded as "shmup" in the past. Old UK magazine scans, for example. Just in case one wants to add an extra layer of "historical etymology" in consideration.

One goal was to address the more common perennial questions: "Can I vote for OutZone?" "Can I vote for Bangai-O?" "Can I vote for Ikari Warriors?" "Can I vote for Contra?" (spoiler! 3 affirmatives and 1 negative.) Another goal was to address a common arguing point: that the inclusion of Ikari Warriors demands the inclusion of Contra, since both are "run and guns."

You are right to say that the inclusion of one doesn't automatically imply the inclusion of the other. However the hybrid nature of the Run'n gun subgenre of shooting games might just cloud your judgment on this.

"Does Contra belong in the category of shmup?" While there is a minority group that sees platform-shooters as shmups, they are a very small minority. If appeasing that minority could be done without annoying other groups, I might be tempted to try. However, platform-shooters as shmups is not an issue on which most forum members are apathetic. I would only serve to annoy the majority of the forum to appease a select few. It is not worth the headache to me.

Here your argument is rather weak, Incognoscente. You are playing with statistics; probably there'll be more angered by the inclusion than those happy by it. It's a valid criteria to avoid backlash on the forum, but I guess a deeper analysis wouldn't have hurt. While you choose to include the overhead form of run'n guns for a reason (the removal of a "double standard"), you don't offer much reason to keep these away, other than the fact that only a minority will be pissed by this.

Why Contra doesn't belong in shmups? Well, for once, because it constitutes quite a large part of the Run n Gun subgenre, but also because you have constantly to deal with jumping on platforms and gravity. And these things detract from the shmups' core, shooting and avoiding bullets.

"Does Ikari Warriors belong in the category of shmups?" I would like to begin with an observation. Guwange and Ikari Warriors are not so far removed, and Guwange and OutZone are even less far removed. Ikari Warriors has two quickly noticeable elements that separate it from Guwange, though both elements can be found in other games we have counted as on-topic. Ikari Warriors contains vehicles (also seen in Boogie Wings) and has push-scroll functionality (also seen in In the Hunt). I do not know precisely what percentage of users want to vote for one of these long-excluded games. I have a hunch it may be a slight majority. I've seen many players wanting to vote for Ikari Warriors or OutZone in the past and have seen new faces pick up either game in recent years. Certainly the group that would vote for these games is larger than the group that would vote for platform-shooters. To exclude these games may annoy a large group of people; contrariwise, to include these games may annoy a large group of people.

Defining a shmup is a matter of taking several elements into consideration. it also has been in the past, a matter of "reverse-engineering" definitions starting from games we knew to fit in the genre. Ikari Warriors is a spawn of Commando, and that game belongs to its own category of shooting game. Do we want to Include Ikari Warriors? Last time I attempted at a definition, I didn't apply a double-standard to overhead games just for the sake of it. In Ikari, you begin at the bottom and go up. But in Granada you are already shooting enemies in a maze, taking cover in angles; If you allow Granada I suppose you also allow Alien Breed, Chaos Engine, Gauntlet. All these games are included by removing the "double standard" and to rephrase your statement, "Gauntlet and Legend of Zelda with a fully powered up Master Sword are not so far removed".

You haven't explained in detail the cases of Bangai-O (*) (whose robot is, if no button is pressed, governed by gravity as Contra men are) or, for that matter, Assault Suits Valken, or Thexder all games I suspect to be eligible at this round. To make things short, I'll say this: as arbitrary as the old rules were, based on geometry and such, they were that way to prevent the inclusion in the genre of games whose emphasis isn't on simple shoot and avoid. removing something like push-scroll for overhead games seems something with little effect in the big scale of things, and yet now I'm dealing with games such as Gauntlet or Chaos Engine where the emphasis is clearly on "maze and get keys to open passages".

All these games you struggled to include, from Commando to Bangai-O, sacrifice the urgency of avoiding and shooting to a greater complexity and interaction with backgrounds. I cannot honestly see myself considering them shmups, so I definitely hope this experiment will be of little consequence in future.

P.S. abovementioned games in yellow await official confirmation so that I can cast my vote for them.

(*) edit: my bad, I noticed you effectively addressed the jump/limiteless fuel thing in your second post speaking of Mr.Heli. I'm not entirely convinced by this but I guess following this strickly would allow Bangai-O and Thexder and rule out Cybernator. Of course, that's a very minor difference so just like push-scroll it's only a matter of waiting for the year that someone is just fond enough of Valken to include it as well...

[LSU]

My familiarity stats:

Previous 25s: 42/43 = 97.7% (Zanac Neo continues to elude me)
Previous honourables: 34/39 = 87.2%

I'll post my vote once I've figured out if I want to include Robotron: 2084 this year. If memory serves it was eligible last year as well, but I was somehow reluctant to include it since it is my absolute favourite game of all time and would therefore have to jump straight to the top of my list. It just seemed a little out of place with all the other titles - but maybe this year I will reconsider!

(EDIT: I included Robotron this year. And since I did that, I also added another of my old favourites - Sinistar - which I assume is eligible, since titles such as Asteroids and Bosconian are listed as being OK.)

[nimitz]

I'll post my vote once I've figured out if I want to include Robotron: 2084 this year. If memory serves it was eligible last year as well, but I was somehow reluctant to include it since it is my absolute favourite game of all time and would therefore have to jump straight to the top of my list. It just seemed a little out of place with all the other titles - but maybe this year I will reconsider!

Yeah, same here, I don't include Robotron in my list since it feels out of place in a list with consisting of (scrolling) shmups only.


as for my personal stats,

100% of the top 25 shmups
95% of the honorable mentions (have not played Ketsui and R-type Final)

That being said, theres a few games that I have only played for a few credits in the bunch:
-Thunderforce V
-Shikigami no shiro 2
-Stargate
-Blazing Star

[neist]

Lets see, my stats:

Top 25: 22/43 = 51%
Honorable Mention: 22/39 = 56%

It hurts that I've never owned a cab or an import or modded PS1 or Saturn. It excludes a lot of things on that list.

The thing about self-screening is that it shows humility and thoughtfulness, so the average person who screens himself out is more qualified than some people who actually vote. neist, your multidirectional shooter expertise is exactly why I think someone like you should vote, or at least put up a list in this thread. Niche subgenres are naturally never going to place well, so there is no need to worry that their inclusion would skew things at the top. Then again, I just like looking at people's lists more than I care about the final results anyway.


incog: I think the more common term for those games like Blood Bros is gallery shooter. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought games like Psyvariar Medium Unit and Revision were combined (like Ibara/Black Label etc) to prevent vote splitting. So it doesn't matter which you specify or if you leave it out.

Yes.

Sweeeeeet.

Sweet, this means a whopping two people will include Granada now! Now time to stump for Twinkle Tale.

I will consider voting depending on how the current discussion goes. I still have a while to do so if I needed. As far as a list goes, here's some games off the top of my head that are decent. Some of them may be questionable as to their inclusion, but all of these are decent, in no particular order

1. Granada
2. Chaos Engine/Soldiers of Fortune
3. Sub-Terrania
4. Kiki Kaikai/Pocky & Rocky series
5. Smash TV
6. Robotron: 2084
7. Loaded/Re-Loaded
8. Twinkle Tale
9. Bangai-O (if you consider it so, and all versions have their merits)
10. Shooter: Starfighter Sanvein
11. Alien Breed
12. Gunroar
13. Ikari Warriors
14. Guerrilla War

I'm not sure if I'd say it's the same with shmups, but multi-directional shooters are highly cloned and ported. There's really only maybe 5-10 variations of the same thing thats simply repeated over and over again. When I get some more motivation I want to create definitions for all the current games and start some sort of web-based list. Possibly even track down screens and info on all the games. It'd be a fairly huge undertaking at any rate.

And Granada is a great game. Second favorite Genesis game.

Thanks for your stats, Sonic R, MadScientist, kengou, Ruldra, and Bill!

Many of the games I haven't played, like the thunderforces and the R-Types, I've played only one of that particular series and that was enough to know that I wouldn't like the rest. I've certainly played more shmups than the ones featured on these lists. For instance I've played Truxton II but not the first one, and only the first one is featured on the list. So yeah, I'd be hesitant to base someone's eligibility to vote for their favorite 25 shmups entirely on what percentage of the previous top 25 and honorable mentions they've played. It doesn't seem like a great measurement.

A form of this rule has been present even in years past, but I think its requirements were so high that many people summarily dismissed the rule. I've certainly relaxed the percentages, but I feel there is much work to be done.

One thing I have noticed about your data, Bill's, and Zaarock's (via PM) is that with two simple changes, you'd all easily be eligible. Change one is counting the lists together instead of separately. Since a number of non-danmaku shooters make it to the Honorable Mention list but not the Top 25, such a change could help someone like God or Zaarock. The other change is to lower the total requirement to 50%. Treated this way, the combined lists could be thought of as similar to a random sampling of shooters. If, out of a random set, you have played more than 49%, then you've played a ton of shooters and I want you to vote. If, out of our less random (and sometimes redundant-looking) list, you have played more than 49%, you've undoubtedly played far more shooters than just our list and I want you to vote.

Another option I could pursue is to create a separate list altogether with broader categories, less redundancy by series and developer, and a few extra niches more commonly overlooked by the Top 25 and ask potential voters to evaluate themselves based on that. The requirement for a passing grade on such a broad test would most likely be somewhere lower than 50%, so it would need a good deal of fine-tuning, too.


I am also open to hearing other ideas, both from voters and from non-voters. I do not consider this rule immutable.

I definitely think this second change at least is in the right direction. I really don't mean it as a good decision for my own benefit, but in consideration that there are players of many tastes. The titles that usually sift out to the top of the lists are considered the 'best', but they are more accurately the most popular. With stricter limitations it's only inevitable that the lists will tend to look the same year after year. Not only are you reducing the voting pool to people have incredibly similar tastes, said voters may pass by newer games that are good that appeal to different tastes.

I probably have more thoughts on the subject, but as for now I have things to do so I can't type them all out now. I'll do that a little bit later.

[BulletMagnet]

In case you want another set of familiarity stats...

Top 25 - 38/43 - 88%

HM - 31/39 - 79%

[nimitz]

Not sure if this could be of any help but I had a (purposely) short definition of a PURE shmup I made a while back with the help of the folks on #shmups.

2d action game with absolute directional control (up = up) in which the directional movement does not always influence the direction of your main fire.

Also, you cannot control the scrolling direction or stop it completely (you may change the scrolling speed). (if there is no scrolling, you obviously have no control over it)

This definition manages to include pretty much every shmups, including oddities such as Forgotten Worlds and Zero Gunner 2, but also keeps multi-directional shooters (Robotron) and borderliners (Outzone) out.



Also, I think it would be nice to have a thread where people can comment their top 25 list, like add annotations next to some games, i think this would be a lot more entertaining to read people's lists with this kind of annotations.

[Herr Schatten]

Also, I think it would be nice to have a thread where people can comment their top 25 list, like add annotations next to some games, i think this would be a lot more entertaining to read people's lists with this kind of annotations.

I think this is a great idea.

[The Coop]

Also, I think it would be nice to have a thread where people can comment their top 25 list, like add annotations next to some games, i think this would be a lot more entertaining to read people's lists with this kind of annotations.

I think this is a great idea.

Until the inevitable "That's you're reason? Disqualify him!" bullshit starts up.

[WarpZone]

Surprised at the favorable votes for Dangun so far after iirc being sidelined a lot in the past. Was there some kind of competition/resurgence of interest in the past year? (I haven't been around much.)

Although I just meet the familiarity percentages, I'll be sitting out again as I haven't played a couple Cave games that I have a feeling would make my list. I'll also be keeping an eye on some of the less familiar titles that are mentioned.

Those that dislike Ikaruga and Gradius V can also breathe a sigh of relief because they would be high on my list

[twalden]

Pardon my forum noobness. Anyone can get in on this, as long as they're experienced with a majority of the titles from previous years?