Ketsui the most overrated game this decade…

[Sonic R]

I guess I am in a shit mood, and maybe I read one too many threads…

But Yeah, I'm am calling it out now.

Ketsui is the most overrated game this decade, this era…
(other overrated games in the past - Radiant Silvergun, Battle Garegga)

Now be hearing me… I like Ketsui, its a good game and I personally feel it is a better offering by Cave as it has a less anal scoring system and the challenge is quite manageable for low skill fellows as well as high skill folks.

but I swear this game is held in holy regard among the fellowship of this forum…

I cannot wait til this game come out on Xbox 360 and shit on everyone sacred cow… It will funny how many people will bitch and whine about anything and everything especially how it regard they precious Ketsui. Maybe when Ketsui is available to many more people at a fraction of cost, it will be exposed for what it is, a mortal shooter.

I would like to know of who actually do not like Ketsui - naw i doesn't matter as just as with other overrated game, they have they haters as well…

Oh well, I'll wait for the defenders of Ketsui like the defenders of Lebron…

[adversity1]

http://www.normanbrent.com/_derived/cle ... Duncan.gif

You're Tim Duncan?

If you think Ketsui sucks, I want to hear your high score on it.

[jpj]

this happens to all great games. once the popularity reaches a certain point of saturation, you get the nerd-backlash(tm). with some people, their need to be different and esoteric will also extend to their taste in music, and film, etc.

i've owned ketsui for a few years, and maybe played forty or so credits on it i think cave (or specifically the ikeda made cave games) are quite formulaic. mind you, i would also say that it's a winning formula. for all the cave games that have 5 stages and 2 loops, ketsui is probably the best in terms of: graphics, music, bullet patterns, accessability. i obviously play other games more, but if the shmup crowd announced ketsui as the most finely polished cave game, and the best shooter ever made, i wouldn't argue with it either

how many times have you played it dude? i'm guessing only from drbooms chicago meets? maybe you'll warm up to it with some more play

but you've reminded me that i haven't played it in a long time, so i will fire it up later

[Zweihander]

Ikaruga was released this decade. This derails your theory.

However, within these forums, Ketsui is incredibly overrated, yes. (As opposed to Ikaruga being overrated everywhere)

[SamIAm]

Call me a poseur, say I have bad taste if you like. Radiant Silvergun and Battle Garegga are, coincidentally, the two shmups I have loved (and played) most of all for a long, long time. It just so happens that today, after a few one-off tries in previous weeks, I sat down in an arcade with Ketsui for a couple hours straight and came away feeling like it's the best game I've played in at least a year. You said it yourself - it's great for the casual and the hardcore alike. I feel like it's the kind of game where every time I play it, I learn something significant, and I'm immediately ready to put the new knowledge to use.

Also, I'm just praying that they produce a decent port. I'd buy a 360 for it, if it doesn't blow.

[Udderdude]

nerd-backlash(tm)

[ave]

Ketsui is the most overrated game this decade, this era…
(other overrated games in the past - Radiant Silvergun, Battle Garegga)

You just called three of the best efforts in 2d shooting history overrated. Do you like average shooters that lack new ideas better?

I cannot wait til this game come out on Xbox 360 and shit on everyone sacred cow… It will funny how many people will bitch and whine about anything and everything especially how it regard they precious Ketsui. Maybe when Ketsui is available to many more people at a fraction of cost, it will be exposed for what it is, a mortal shooter.

Actually I don't care about the Xbox release as I won't get it. Too expensive (had to buy a jp XB for that) and after the BLEX disaster it's probably no good either.
So I don't know what people you are talking about. Those who own it, play it and hype it like whatever, or those who have rarely or never played it and still say "wow best ever". I have spent many, many hours on this game so far and still like it everytime I start it - that happens rarely, maybe in a handful of shooters. Same with Battle Garegga, or Ikaruga - all games that you would probably call "overrated" because many people like and worship them.
Ketsui is no other, just because it is probably (just like DOJ) IMO a perfect "easy to learn, difficult to master" game (btw this could also be said of all the other overrated games you mentioned). Great music, great graphics, great learn-curve, great challenge for both beginners and experts, great overall experience.

To put it simple: I don't know why you think it's overrated. Or do you just think outstanding games must not be hyped in any way even if they are better than others just to preserve some kind of objectivity towards the subject?

[Sonic R]

http://www.normanbrent.com/_derived/cle ... Duncan.gif

You're Tim Duncan?

If you think Ketsui sucks, I want to hear your high score on it.

Did I say it sucks?

Overrated =/= suck

And I just love when someone attack a sacred shooter, the "lets see your high score" well 411 I am the suck my score is shit in EVERY thing so what I cannot have opinion because I am a bad player, you telling me I am a peice of shit? Fuck You then — if otherwise, please disregard.

Tim Duncan > Lebaby (see 2007)

how many times have you played it dude? i'm guessing only from drbooms chicago meets? maybe you'll warm up to it with some more play

I've played about 20-30 credits of it at three peoples homes (most recent being at drboom's)

Ikaruga was released this decade. This derails your theory.

However, within these forums, Ketsui is incredibly overrated, yes. (As opposed to Ikaruga being overrated everywhere)

I totally forgot about Ikaruga… I guess on a larger scope, beyond shmups.com its true Ikaruga is indeed more overrated.

[Zweihander]

Seriously, Ketsui is my favorite DS game only because there's no other bullet-hell games on it.

Radiant Silvergun is my favorite game of all-time.

I still won't argue against the fact that they are both overrated. Maybe nowhere near as much as, say, Ikaruga, but still. They dabble in the lands of Touhou when it comes to overrated-ness.

Also:



For fuck's sake, guys. Get off CAVE's cock.

[adversity1]

http://www.normanbrent.com/_derived/cle ... Duncan.gif

You're Tim Duncan?

If you think Ketsui sucks, I want to hear your high score on it.

Did I say it sucks?

Overrated =/= suck

And I just love when someone attack a sacred shooter, the "lets see your high score" well 411 I am the suck my score is shit in EVERY thing so what I cannot have opinion because I am a bad player, you telling me I am a peice of shit? Fuck You then — if otherwise, please disregard.

Tim Duncan > Lebaby (see 2007)

Why would you move right to me thinking you're a piece of shit? I didn't say anything like it. My high score in Ketsui is not exactly impressive, I've only reached the second extend once. But that's because I've only played the game maybe 30 times or so. Still, it's a fun game that challenges you to constantly veer near popcorn enemies for high multiplier chips and then kill bigger enemies for a multiplier bonus. If you're not playing Ketsui for score you are literally missing out on what seperates it from any other shooter. So that's why I asked for your score, because I have the feeling you didn't grasp the scoring mechanic at all.

For the record, you've also talked about how much you enjoy Otomedius and even defended the 360 DOJ port. I have a hard time taking your opinion seriously after those two.

[neorichieb1971]

Shmups forum formula =

Mr X slams Mr Y's opinion
Mr Y slams Mr X's opinion

Mr A comes to Mr X's defense
Mr B comes to Mr Y's defense

Thread goes of course, everyone has a group hug afterwards.

I like the last bit best

[Sonic R]

For the record, you've also talked about how much you enjoy Otomedius and even defended the 360 DOJ port. I have a hard time taking your opinion seriously after those two.

Sucks to be you.

Sorry I'm not highbrow enough.

[Zweihander]

ITT, someone's high score in a shmup dictates the credibility of their statements. I suppose this means if someone's high score in Ikaruga sucks, they're not allowed to say anything bad about it, since "this scoring system is a piece of shit" is not a valid opinion.

Ah, elitism. It must be lonely up top, but it's satisfying to look down on everyone below, right?

Ketsui's scoring system, in my opinion, can be fun. Then again, I've only played Demo Label. It's one of those things like chaining or buzzing, it's not for everyone, and if someone doesn't want to punish themselves with a scoring system they don't enjoy, there's no need to be a faggot and say "YUO DOENT LIEK IT CAUS U SUKK AT SCORIGN, HEERS MY SCOERS, LOLOL".

[adversity1]

I think that in most cases, if you haven't made it to the second extend in a shmup, it's too early for you to pass judgement on it. You can certainly say 'it's not for me', 'I wasn't into it', but when you start making objective statements about how good the game is, you have to back that up by actually understanding how the game works.

I've never played most of the Raiden series for instance, but I wouldn't start calling them overrated if I can't even make it to the point where the game really starts to get interesting.

Same with fighters too. I'm not going to claim that Virtua Fighter is overrated if I can't put up a decent fight in it (i.e. learned how to play it to an acceptable level).

[Elixir]

Sonic R: Have you played Ketsui? It's not like the DS version.

But yeah, I agree. Ketsui's overrated. Yes, it's a great game, and this is coming from someone who has owned the arcade board. But with that said, I've seen people here put Ketsui on their "top 10 games of all time" lists, and they haven't even played it. It's almost as bad as people who are obsessed with Touhou, but don't actually play the games at all.

I also think Ikaruga is fairly overrated as well. People are willing to call it Treasure's best game, but they quickly forget that Treasure also made Mischief Makers. Ketsui could be considered Cave's best game, but most people don't have access to most of Cave's library (Galuda 2, Pink Sweets, Death Smiles, DOJBL, so forth) so it's never accurate.

In short, it doesn't matter if a game is overrated or not, but whether you enjoy playing it. Ketsui being overrated doesn't necessarily mean it's inaccessible, but the game is currently inaccessible in price, availability, and I definitely wouldn't recommend it to newcomers, since it's pretty hard. DOJ-level hard. In fact I wouldn't recommend that to newcomers either. There's also the issue of the board being difficult to track down, and thus we come full circle with people foaming at the mouth over something they can't play.

[Jockel]

I've got to partially agree to sonic R though, i find Ketsui to be overrated, too. Still an awesome and really amazing game, and surely among CAVE's best, but the praise it's getting may seem a little too much.
I enjoyed Futari Maniac and Daifukkatsu more, but then again i'm not a high-level player.
@Zweihänder: You just had to bring up "Demo Label" again, had you?
Edit: And what Elixir said. Took me a little too long to type.

[neorichieb1971]

I can just look at a game and say its not for me. I don't need to force myself to play it for hours and hours to make a judgment.


Thats like saying you don't like bananas, but you have to eat 250 of them before others will certify your opinion on whether you decide to like them or not. Thats just silly!

Ketsui, much like Garegga and RSG are the odd cases where extremely accomplished games in their genre are owned by braggers. Whether it be for ownership alone, the price its for the game itself.

Someone who has invested money in something like Ketsui will NEVER let its limelight go away because if you stop talking about it, it just passes by unnoticed. If Ketsui were a car, it would be a lamborghini. The owners buy it because it makes people take notice. It may not be the best car ever, but its got its place in history. Ketsui most certainly has that.

[Zweihander]

I'd say ESPgaluda is my favorite CAVE game. I'd never say it's their BEST game, though, since "best" is a word of subjective opinion and cannot be proven by fact.

@Zweihänder: You just had to bring up "Demo Label" again, had you?

So the DS playable demo shouldn't be brought up at all, in a Ketsui discussion?

[Sonic R]

Zweihander, Elixer, Jockel get it…

The meaning of overrated

Its otherwise funny to see the Ketsui stans come out and start defending they sacred cow… and I never never say it sucks

[adversity1]

A game I've put 30 credits in is my sacred cow. Got it.

[Zweihander]

A game I've put 30 credits in is my sacred cow. Got it.

Nice avatar.

[adversity1]

A game I've put 30 credits in is my sacred cow. Got it.

Nice avatar.

That's from the demo version.

[Sonic R]

A game I've put 30 credits in is my sacred cow. Got it.

Right, cause a mother fucker need to play 1000 hours to have any feeling about any games they play.

Fucking Cave stan

[Jockel]

@Sonic R: You obviously haven't played Halo 3, or else you wouldn't call Ketsui the most overrated game

[Sonic R]

@Sonic R: You obviously haven't played Halo 3, or else you wouldn't call Ketsui the most overrated game

I guess I'm just speaking of shooters…

But Zweihander did mention Ikaruga, which overall is more overrated… Ketsui I guess, is more among the fellowship of the shooter community.

I would say COD4 is more overrated than Halo 3… heck more people praise COD4 than COD WAW

[adversity1]

A game I've put 30 credits in is my sacred cow. Got it.

Right, cause a mother fucker need to play 1000 hours to have any feeling about any games they play.

Fucking Cave stan

It must really suck that it takes you 1000 hours to reach the second extend.

[Sonic R]

A game I've put 30 credits in is my sacred cow. Got it.

Right, cause a mother fucker need to play 1000 hours to have any feeling about any games they play.

Fucking Cave stan

It must really suck that it takes you 1000 hours to reach the second extend.

It already been covered I suck and that I am shit to you. Are you forgetting already?

[jpj]

richie: that must make me jay kay

i think saying "game X is overrated" has got to be the most boring tired cliche in videogames. if you break it down, you're basically saying i enjoy the game, but other people enjoy it more; however ... my opinion is RIGHT and your opinion is WRONG

i just see posts like that and at least if you were saying something sucks, it could make for an interesting and polarised discussion. saying you like something, but eh... whatever. it's just feeble.

and it's a lot easier to knock something, than it is to praise it

ultimately, i just don't really concern myself with people enjoying games that i don't. maybe it's a trait of the "i'm right, you're wrong!" personality types. i chat about the stuff i like, and hopefully some others will share that

this game's price has risen a lot since i bought it. maybe 40%. and the price of out-of-print stuff is affected by three factors: rarity, reputation (ie how well known it is, if an import title), and lastly, how good it is. most expensive games tend to only have one of these characteristics, but in the extreme. for example quiz chibi chibi maruko chan on neo geo AES is not particularly well known, nor is it very good ... but it is very rare. other games (particularly in-house SNES games, as these never received very limited production numbers) are the opposite. mario kart, link to the past, secret of mana, et al, may well have sold over a million copies each worldwide, but they are great games, and as the word spreads, so the price goes up. final fantasy vii would be another good example of that. and ketsui is one of the games that fulfils all three criteria.

and as i often say: a game is only worth what a person will pay for it



(the time it took me to write this, there are probably 3 more posts already )

[SamIAm]

And now, semantics...

The "overrated" phenomenon happens, to one degree or another, with any piece of enjoyable artistic work that is released to a community. Are you merely trying to point out that that has happened greatly with this game? Because that's a rather boring point. I don't really give a fuck about "ratings" aside from how they point out new things to check out.

Do you have anything to say about the game itself?

EDIT: looks like jpj beat me to the point.

[Zweihander]

A game I've put 30 credits in is my sacred cow. Got it.

Right, cause a mother fucker need to play 1000 hours to have any feeling about any games they play.

Fucking Cave stan

It must really suck that it takes you 1000 hours to reach the second extend.

Why the second extend? Christ, it took me forever in RSG to get the first extend, and I'd already decided that this game dethrones ESPgaluda as my all-time favorite game. (though as mentioned, Galuda is still my favorite CAVE game, and likely always will be if Mushi is any sign of degradation in quality) I got three extends the first time I played Shienryu Explosion (1CC'd it on first try... I doubt anyone else here hasn't, so no big feat there, just saying), and already knew the game was shit after the first level. (kept playing because, well... nothing was fucking killing me...) Seriously, the whole "second extend" thing is bullshit already. It's like saying "You need to be X rank in at least X servers before you can decide you don't like an FPS", and don't try to say it isn't because comparatively it is, entirely.