No sound with Galuda 2 and Supergun ...

Gwyrgyn Blood · Post by **Gwyrgyn Blood** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:22 pm

I recently finally got a supergun, but unfortunately I'm getting no sound at all running ESP Galuda 2. I've fiddled around a bit and read around on common reasons but I still can't find the solution.

The supergun is a custom by D-Lite.
I've checked the audio adjuster on the PCB itself, tried turning it all the way both ways and not a different. I tried the stereo/audio switch. Tried different cables too, didn't help.

I looked inside the supergun... wires L and 10 are wired up to audio (not sure how exactly). According to the PCB instructions, there's 'Audio (GND)' for pin M but nothing is wired to that on the supergun. The guy who sold the supergun to me says it's worked fine on everything he's thrown at it ... so I'm kind of doubting the SG is at fault.

Only off thing is that the Jamma connector is a little too wide for the PCB, so it doesn't get all the way in... BUT I still get video/input and everything else working just fine. Here's some pictures of the setup:
http://www.dragoninstall.com/junk/supergun%20001.jpg
http://www.dragoninstall.com/junk/supergun%20002.jpg

I haven't yet tried a different supergun or a different PCB as this is the only stuff I own, and my friend who does own other stuff is pretty busy and lives over an hour away. Does anyone have any other possible solutions to this problem? I'm really stumped here.

cody · Post by **cody** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:30 pm

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... +sh3+sound

When i get some free time, I'm going to wire up this $5 ebay attenuator and see if it works better than the circuit d-lite was apparently using.

Gwyrgyn Blood · Post by **Gwyrgyn Blood** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:47 pm

The impression I'm getting from other people is that it's either the audio attenuation or the voltage. I'm getting NO sound at all though, other than a 'pop' when I turn the thing on.

What exactly is audio attenuation for in the supergun anyway? And if that's the problem, what does it look like, and is it OKAY to remove it?

Edit: Here's a picture of the internals of the thing:
http://www.dragoninstall.com/junk/supergun%20008.jpg

Not really that helpful I know. :/

cody · Post by **cody** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:07 pm

It's in the supergun because JAMMA boards are designed to drive a speaker directly, not plug into an amplifier

In d-llite's case, it likely looks like a pair of resistors.

It's not okay to remove it unless you're going to wire the audio up to an 8ohm speaker , instead of plugging it into your tv or amp.

Gwyrgyn Blood · Post by **Gwyrgyn Blood** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:18 pm

Right, I see the resistors there. The guy who sold it to me though said he ran all kinds of PCBs without sound problems at all, even Ibara (I think), which would make it really weird that it would not work with this.

Edit: I guess my question is, what are my options to fix the problem? I would MUCH prefer to be able to play this on any TV/whatever instead of having to have speakers laying around. If I have to rip out the audio attenuation circuits and buy some 8ohm speakers I will, but I'd rather have it set up so I don't have to.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:55 pm

Unless that gun has an audio attentuation on/off switch, you're basically screwed. Most D-lite superguns are HORRIBLE for playing Cave SH3 boards (any thing from Mushihime-sama on), and I think they have problems with PGM boards like Ketsui too. If you want to get sound, the only way I could do it with Galuda 2 when I had a similar supergun was to connect the PCB while the supergun was powered on. This is a bit risky, as you have a risk of electric shock.

The best thing you could do is sell it and buy a Sigma AV7000 instead. They are a million times better for Cave games.

Gwyrgyn Blood · Post by **Gwyrgyn Blood** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:15 pm

I don't see why this one can't do sound and other ones can. Can't I just build or buy a different audio attenuation circuit and put it in if it's so terrible?

And I tried connecting the PCB while it was already on and it did nothing to help.

As far as getting a Sigma AV7000, I wouldn't even know where to begin. I'm pretty fed up with all the bullshit I've dealt with trying to get anything, and so far I'm just a lot poorer with nothing to show for it.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:19 pm

IIRC the reason why the SH3 boards don't output sound on a D-lite gun is because they output sound at a much lower amplitude than other boards. So basically the sound is not strong enough to get through D-lite's wiring. Something like that.

I too was fed up with the Dlite supergun I had, after I spent a lot of money on it. I later got one made by him w/ a JROK converter and an audio attentuation on/off switch. That one worked fine with Galuda 2! My current Sigma is better though. Check Yahoo japan auctions. Sigma AV7000s pop up from time to time. One just sold for about $140 a few weeks ago!

Oh, for the trick to get sound, make sure you connect the PCB slowly while the gun is on. I would connect one end and slowly move it down and connect the other. Then the sound would come through. Then again mine had a JAMMA harness, and it doesn't look like yours does. So maybe that's a factor as well.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:47 pm

Is everyone sure its the gun at fault?

I don't see any harm in this but its worth a try.

Pull pins L+10 from the jamma connector and put a speaker to it. black = ground pin. If you get sound do what these guys suggest, otherwise your just spending money for no reason.

Gwyrgyn Blood · Post by **Gwyrgyn Blood** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:58 pm

EOJ wrote:IIRC the reason why the SH3 boards don't output sound on a D-lite gun is because they output sound at a much lower amplitude than other boards. So basically the sound is not strong enough to get through D-lite's wiring. Something like that.

Don't really understand this... all the whole thing is is two resistors, and then some wires to the output, along with a power source to the output. If it was a matter of not enough amplitude ... wouldn't that just mean the resistors were too strong? I guess I just don't know how these things work at all.

neorichieb1971 wrote: Pull pins L+10 from the jamma connector and put a speaker to it. black = ground pin. If you get sound do what these guys suggest, otherwise your just spending money for no reason.

I don't really follow what you mean with 'black = ground pin'. The manual only states:

L - Speaker -
10 - Speaker +
M - Audio (GND)

So what goes where if I wanted to plug it directly into speakers?

Well also there's the matter that I don't own a pair of 8ohm speakers or anything so I couldn't even really try it if I wanted to.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:05 pm

Gwyrgyn Blood wrote:
EOJ wrote:IIRC the reason why the SH3 boards don't output sound on a D-lite gun is because they output sound at a much lower amplitude than other boards. So basically the sound is not strong enough to get through D-lite's wiring. Something like that.
Don't really understand this... all the whole thing is is two resistors, and then some wires to the output, along with a power source to the output. If it was a matter of not enough amplitude ... wouldn't that just mean the resistors were too strong? I guess I just don't know how these things work at all.

Yeah, it means the audio attentuation circuit is too strong. It cuts off the sound because the sound on the SH3 boards is not strong enough to pass through it (without being cut off). So you need to remove that audio attenuation circuit D-lite puts in his guns. If you can solder, doing this would be a cheaper fix than getting another gun.

Gwyrgyn Blood · Post by **Gwyrgyn Blood** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:13 pm

I can solder fine if that will fix things. But should I remove the resistors entirely or replace them with lighter ones? If I remove them, isn't that dangerous to the TV speakers? Cody was saying earlier that you can't (or shouldn't) remove the resistors unless I was going to run them to an 8ohm speaker.

SuperGrafx · Post by **SuperGrafx** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:17 pm

EOJ wrote:
Yeah, it means the audio attentuation circuit is too strong. It cuts off the sound because the sound on the SH3 boards is not strong enough to pass through it (without being cut off). So you need to remove that audio attenuation circuit D-lite puts in his guns. If you can solder, doing this would be a cheaper fix than getting another gun.

I'm the guy who Gwrygyn Blood bought the SuperGun from.
I've used many different types of pcbs with this particular SuperGun (Street Fighter II, Tiger Road, Neo MVS, Snow Bros and yes, even Ibara) with no audio issues to speak of. From what I understand, D-Lite told me he had to put this attentuation circuit into the SG in order to make the audio "safe" to run through a TV or external speaker setup. Prior to D-Lite's unit, I was using my own homebrew SG with an audio solution that consisted of a single Radio Shack 8 ohm speaker.

Oddly enough, I never had any audio issues with Ibara using this gun. That's why I'm a bit confused as to why Galuda2 isn't working properly, but now I'm reading that Cave boards have all sorts of issues on D-Lite's units and I can't figure out why I never had any issues.

I'm at a loss. I suggested that we try another PCB to see if something got damaged in shipping.

cody · Post by **cody** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:26 pm

I believe that pins M & 11 (AudioGND / Audio +) are for boards that have preamp output, which doesnt include the cave sh3 boards (can anyone else verify this?)

If that's correct, you would want to disconnect whatever d-lite has hooked to pins L & 10, and connect those pins to a single 8ohm speaker. Doesn't really matter which wire goes to which terminal of the speaker; jamma is mono, so you only want one speaker.

Once you verify that the board puts out sound, you'll need to replace the resistors with a better attenuation circuit if you want to hook it up to a tv.

Like I said, if i get some time I'll test out the one I got, because they're easy to find on ebay and dirt cheap.

Gwyrgyn Blood · Post by **Gwyrgyn Blood** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:38 pm

cody wrote:I believe that pins M & 11 (AudioGND / Audio +) are for boards that have preamp output, which doesnt include the cave sh3 boards (can anyone else verify this?)

If that's correct, you would want to disconnect whatever d-lite has hooked to pins L & 10, and connect those pins to a single 8ohm speaker. Doesn't really matter which wire goes to which terminal of the speaker; jamma is mono, so you only want one speaker.

Are you saying to hook L&10 up to the speaker or M&11? Your wording was a little confusing there.

Unfortunately all I found laying around was a Bose speaker, which says 'Compatible with amplifiers or receivers rated 10-100 watts/ channel rated 4 to 8 ohms. IEC 50W continuous 6ohms' ... which I'm guessing won't work to test it.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:40 pm

This doesn't make much sense to me.

If the SH3 output is so low that an attenuation circuit will kill it completely, surely the output isn't enough to damage an amplifier or TV.

If so you could just bypass the att circuit for that one game or install a switch.

cody · Post by **cody** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:40 pm

Hook up L and 10 to the bose speaker.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:41 pm

Gwyrgyn Blood wrote:
cody wrote:I believe that pins M & 11 (AudioGND / Audio +) are for boards that have preamp output, which doesnt include the cave sh3 boards (can anyone else verify this?)

If that's correct, you would want to disconnect whatever d-lite has hooked to pins L & 10, and connect those pins to a single 8ohm speaker. Doesn't really matter which wire goes to which terminal of the speaker; jamma is mono, so you only want one speaker.
Are you saying to hook L&10 up to the speaker or M&11? Your wording was a little confusing there.

Unfortunately all I found laying around was a Bose speaker, which says 'Compatible with amplifiers or receivers rated 10-100 watts/ channel rated 4 to 8 ohms. IEC 50W continuous 6ohms' ... which I'm guessing won't work to test it.

To temporarily test it you won't do any harm at all. Unless you connect it wrong. These things take time to screw up, its not an instant thing.

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:51 pm

neorichieb1971 wrote:This doesn't make much sense to me.

If the SH3 output is so low that an attenuation circuit will kill it completely, surely the output isn't enough to damage an amplifier or TV.

If so you could just bypass the att circuit for that one game or install a switch.

Typically the resistors are there to protect the PCB preamp, not the speakers or whatever you're attaching to the audio output. (although they may help in that regard, and it'll sound like crap without it)

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:58 pm

Cave should just add RCA's to the PCB's from pre-amplification stage. That would solve everything... I know, its never gonna happen.

Gwyrgyn Blood · Post by **Gwyrgyn Blood** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:16 pm

Success! The PCB is putting out sound just fine to a speaker. So yeah, it's the SG's fault (thank god). I'm going to wire the thing up to temporarily run through the speaker, but hopefully Cody or someone else will help me get the thing rewired to do proper output to TV.

PC Engine Fan X! · Post by **PC Engine Fan X!** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:22 pm

Gwyrgyn Blood wrote:Success! The PCB is putting out sound just fine to a speaker. So yeah, it's the SG's fault (thank god). I'm going to wire the thing up to temporarily run through the speaker, but hopefully Cody or someone else will help me get the thing rewired to do proper output to TV.

For Gwyrgyn Blood,

That's great that your ESPgaluda II PCB outputs sound to a speaker...just get a Y-harness to output to a pair of 8 ohms rated speakers -- it'll sound better than with just one speaker for the time being.

I do have a 100w Sony bookshelf speakers rated at 8 ohms that work just fine with my Supergun setups -- although some would say that particular 100w speaker setup would be overkill (hook up a pair of such rated speakers to a Taito G-Net motherboard setup and it won't "even break a sweat" either...). Some fellow arcade PCB hobbyists would say that using a 20w to 30w pair of speakers rated at 8 ohms would be adequate enough for casual arcade PCB playing... ^_~

The CPS-2 Progear No Arashi/Progear PCB is the only Cave/Capcom produced PCB that would have the RCA audio ootput jacks built-in from the get-go (of course, this would be on the CPS-2 'B' board though)... ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

Gwyrgyn Blood · Post by **Gwyrgyn Blood** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:12 pm

I talked with SegaSonicFan, who knows a bit about Audio, and he suggested that keeping the audio volume dial on the PCB itself set low would have roughly the same effect of getting the audio output to the right voltage, so it's safe to run the wires strait from the Jamma to the RCA output, IF you keep the volume on the PCB set low enough.

Now I've tried wiring that up but still had no sound. I looked at the wiring in the SG (after now having removed the audio attenuation circuit), and it seems like only pin 10 actually goes to anything, pin L doesn't go anywhere. The RCA jack is just hooked up to 10 and GND. Is it normal for L not to be wired at all when dealing with mono sound, or should that be what the RCA jack's ground is wired up to?

MKL · Post by **MKL** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:47 pm

Gwyrgyn Blood wrote:I talked with SegaSonicFan, who knows a bit about Audio, and he suggested that keeping the audio volume dial on the PCB itself set low would have roughly the same effect of getting the audio output to the right voltage, so it's safe to run the wires strait from the Jamma to the RCA output, IF you keep the volume on the PCB set low enough.

Of course and you wanna know something funny? It was suggested above to get a Japanese supergun instead, since those work fine even with later Cave boards. Well that's because they don't have any audio attenuation at all... The attenuation trend originated on neo-geo.com I think (and D-Lite's a mod over there) and suddenly all the people building superguns followed it like a flock of sheep (these people usually aren't all that tech-minded) and the voice spread that if you fed jamma audio directly into TV/receiver it would damage it. Fact is I've heard of all sorts of supergun-related problems but not a single case of TV speakers blown because of amped jamma audio. Actually I'm not saying not to attenuate audio but that circuit isn't the only way. I've built a supergun with a different circuit myself and the guy I sold it to does have most later Cave boards. I'm going to ask him if audio is fine on them with my supergun.

Gwyrgyn Blood wrote: The RCA jack is just hooked up to 10 and GND. Is it normal for L not to be wired at all when dealing with mono sound, or should that be what the RCA jack's ground is wired up to?

Never use Jamma L as the audio negative if you hook it up to TVs/stereo receivers since these use ground as audio neg. Jamma amplifiers are a wholly different type, they're bridged amplifiers and don't use ground as the negative, in fact jamma L is not a ground. So for supergun purposes it should never be used.

oxtsu · Post by **oxtsu** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:47 pm

I use 10+L, line-level and direct, never any problems with SH-3 hardware.

Gwyrgyn Blood · Post by **Gwyrgyn Blood** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:48 pm

I screwed around with it a bit more... the only way I could get audio out was to use Pin 10 and Pin M. When I hooked up L to the other speaker output, I got no sound. Same thing if I tried to output 10 to both speakers.... weird. Maybe I just needed to turn the volume up more on the board? It seems already even with 10/M I need to turn up the knob pretty far to get decent volume.

Well either way, 10 and M worked and got me sound.

BTW, does anyone know if it's possible to run Cave games through a Capture Card at all? It seems the funky timings throws things off. Is it maybe possible to go PCB > VCR > PC ? That'd look terrible but it could be used to record.

Edit: Nope, same signal problems. :I

How do people capture from Cave PCBs normally?

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:31 pm

How do people capture from Cave PCBs normally?

I did the following.

-Hooked my Super Gun up to my capture card
-Hit record

Not sure why you're having a problem. There are quite a few other users here capturing from the same hardware.

General Martok · Post by **General Martok** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:03 am

Gwyrgyn Blood wrote: BTW, does anyone know if it's possible to run Cave games through a Capture Card at all? It seems the funky timings throws things off. Is it maybe possible to go PCB > VCR > PC ? That'd look terrible but it could be used to record.

Edit: Nope, same signal problems. :I

How do people capture from Cave PCBs normally?

did you try to record with DScaler by any chance ? DScaler only supports 50hz or 60hz signals ...I dont know which refresh rate Galuda 2 uses , but you could try different programs like vrtualdub (or however it is called).
Could also be dependet on the capture chip on your card or the video encoder of your supergun

Gwyrgyn Blood · Post by **Gwyrgyn Blood** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:13 am

GaijinPunch wrote:
I did the following.

-Hooked my Super Gun up to my capture card
-Hit record

Not sure why you're having a problem. There are quite a few other users here capturing from the same hardware.

The signal comes out distorted, crazy colors and all that. What card/software do you use?

I have a WinFast TV2000 XP Expert and tried it through DScaler. I tried Virtual Dub too but didn't really fiddle around that much with it.

The encoder is a JROK 3.1 if I recall.

Gozer · Post by **Gozer** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:06 am

I'm looking to buy Espgaluda 2 at some point.

I own a D-lite supergun that has a audio attenuation on/off switch. My ketsui board works just fine with this supergun. Do I have a good chance at having no audio issues with galuda 2?

I shouldn't have a problem because I have the attenuation switch, right?