Autofire in older shmups

Ruldra · Post by **Ruldra** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:31 am

What do you think of using emulator autofire in shmups that are meant to be beaten without it? Games like Image Fight, Varth, Gemini Wing and Darius Gaiden aren't as challenging when you use autofire to shoot at ungodly speeds and kill everything before they fire at you.

Is it cheating? Do you avoid using it? Do you use autofire delay to make it fair? Or you just don't care?

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:42 am

I use them to save wear and tear on my fingers and buttons (and because I don't care for additional difficulty). It's pretty much cheating though so most top-level scoreboards have listings for turbo and non-turbo.

Cthulhu · Post by **Cthulhu** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:55 am

I pretty much always use auto-fire now, as my fingers really can't handle hammering away like they used to. There are a few games where autofire pretty much kills the difficulty, but I just avoid those... I don't really consider "PRESS THE BUTTON FASTARFASTAR" to be a fun gameplay mechanic anymore.

ZOM · Post by **ZOM** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:07 am

I consider it cheating.
That being said, I still use auto-fire on those games since my fingers can't handle constant fast-tapping for more than
5 minutes, not anymore.
I should mention though that most of the time I set the auto-fire rate to something I could pull off myself (read: very slow),
this way I don't feel like I'm cheating.

Enhasa · Post by **Enhasa** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:26 am

I'm not a fan of it in concept, but I do typically use autofire. Nobody wants RSI, but mainly, the shmupping norm is to use autofire, so using it maintains a level playing field. Back in the day, I didn't use autofire, so I do have an appreciation of how much difference it makes, and I don't go around saying such and such game is easy without mentioning the autofire.

(As an aside, by default the Japanese use autofire and programmable pads for everything ranging from arcade to PC to console games. In the speedrunning/timeattack world, western gamers typically don't use autofire, so this causes a barrier and is one reason why tool-assisted plays are so popular in Asian countries.)

Post by **Ghegs** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:28 am

Ganelon wrote:I use them to save wear and tear on my fingers and buttons (and because I don't care for additional difficulty).

This. On one side of the coin, I want to keep myself RSI-free as long as possible and on the other side, I don't want to have to replace my controllers constantly due to worn-out buttons.

And like Enhasa said, even japanese use it. Companies even released official controllers with autofire. Hudson released an autofire-capable controller in the Famicom days and the television ad for it focused on how you don't have to keep tapping in Star Soldier anymore.

And really, if a game's difficulty comes from the fact that you have to keep tapping the buttons in order to get proper firepower...it's not a well-designed aspect of the game.

sfried · Post by **sfried** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:31 am

For pads: Autofire is ideal.
For sticks: It's easier for a person to drum the button with two fingers, thus manual is better in this case.

MathU · Post by **MathU** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:07 am

I definitely think it's cheating, and I don't use it. You don't get bragging rights when you beat Image Fight with autofire.

DEL · Post by **DEL** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:11 am

Ruldra wrote;

Games like Image Fight, Varth, Gemini Wing and Darius Gaiden aren't as challenging when you use autofire to shoot at ungodly speeds and kill everything before they fire at you.

Wot? I didn't know that Gemini Wing benefits greatly from autofire

. Dammit, I did it the hard way.
I agree on Darius Gaiden of course.

As for the question, I don't think that autofire is cheating because the Japanese rinse the autofire on every arcade shooter (in their arcades).
So if they do it, why should we punish ourselves?

freddiebamboo · Post by **freddiebamboo** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:48 pm

As long as there are separate hi score tables for people that use auto then there is nothing wrong with it.

I can't even begin to imagine the hell that Darius Gaiden is without autofire...

Fenrir · Post by **Fenrir** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:00 pm

Difficult to say. There should even be a "standard" for buttons, then. What if I mod (or have?) a stick with buttons so soft and responsive that even delicately drumming on them with two fingers makes it work?
Maybe Darius Gaiden's difficulty has been calibrated for normal arcade sticks which require a good dose of mashing, blood and sweat. Using it with a soft-buttoned stick would be the same as pseudo-cheating?

For example, the neo geo home sticks have very soft buttons, while the arcade cabinets have way harder buttons. Have those who play Andro Dunos at home a major advantage to those playing it at an arcade?
And what if they save their high scores on a card and put it on an arcade cabinet in the local arcade... do they have bragging rights? dududu

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:10 pm

the memory cards only save your progress, not your actual scores, i think

i think you have to allow autofire scores. simply because if you don't, people would just cheat anyway

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:16 pm

yeah autofire sucks give me crippled fingers anyday

PC Engine Fan X! · Post by **PC Engine Fan X!** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:46 pm

Here's an interesting tidbit on the 1986 arcade PCB release of Capcom's Zetta Gattai Sidearms/Hyper Dyne Sidearms:

The default autofire is faster in-game than if you were to use an external autofire PCB hack to play on a Sidearms PCB. Back in 1988, I used to be able to get to final mechanical worm boss at the end of the game on my first life and have six lives in reserve. But it would end up being a 2CC because all my lives would go up in smoke trying to take it down. ^_~

What is this suicide trick on the last worm boss that increases your overall Sidearms score I keep hearing about?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

BIL · Post by **BIL** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:06 pm

I don't exactly feel good using autofire (I'm compelled to take what a game dishes out), but then again, I feel worse about wearing down pads / sticks. And as Ghegs said, hammering a button isn't much of a legitimate challenge in my book anyway. So I use auto with the really bitch-awful tappers like Darius Gaiden, that make me think I'm going to wreck my stuff. For more reasonable tapping like the original Raiden's, that's pretty much on par with Contra (NES) and other standards, I prefer to go without autofire.

MathU · Post by **MathU** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:39 pm

freddiebamboo wrote:As long as there are separate hi score tables for people that use auto then there is nothing wrong with it.

I can't even begin to imagine the hell that Darius Gaiden is without autofire...

I can. There's more strategy involved because you use safe moments to hammer the fire button, while in dangerous situations you could be better off just holding the button down and focusing on dodging.
I honestly feel using autofire in it takes a lot of out the original game.

EDIT: MORE strategy involved...

toaplan_shmupfan · Post by **toaplan_shmupfan** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:39 pm

I use autofire for any shmup game that allows it built into the game or via a menu option (if ported to a console), and I don't consider that cheating unless the autofire rate is substantially faster than that of mashing on the button or even tapping two fire buttons.

The faster autofire on Saturn version of Darius Gaiden, for example, could border on being considered cheating since Darius Gaiden already has a built-in (but slow) autofire, and that the extra fast autofire requires a code rather than a menu selection.

Other older console shmups, for example, the Sega Genesis versions of Fire Shark, Twin Cobra, and Hellfire... those autofire rates are not extremely fast. In those cases (among others from other developers) it is more or less just smart usage to prevent wearing out controller buttons and the firing rate can actually still be made faster by manually tapping on two separate fire buttons (in the case of both Fire Shark and Twin Cobra, this can also be set in the options menu which buttons are fire buttons and bomb buttons).

The Genesis version of Truxton is an interesting case of its own, because they made button A a manual fire button and button C a very fast autofire game. Such an autofire wasn't ever built into the arcade game, so yeah, it could be considered to be cheating. However, the game is IMHO difficult enough even on the console that I tend to think that autofire is almost a requirement to make the game much more playable than its arcade version. I just wouldn't try to make any claims of a high score achievement when using the button C autofire, though others may also vary in that opinion.

Then there are cases where using autofire can actually have a negative effect on the overall gameplay. Enable autofire on the Capcom Classics Collection PS2 version of 1942, and instead of three shots spaced out evenly as a continuous fire, the autofire rapidly bursts out three shots, leaving a significant time gap before the next three shots are burst out. Tapping the button instead of holding down the button with autofire enabled prevents this issue, so for that game it is actually better just to leave autofire off.

Varth also has autofire built into the game. I find that, at least in the case of the Capcom Classics Collection 2 PS2 version, all it does is eliminate the need to release and repress the fire button to restart the game's built-in autofire (which otherwise stops after a specified number of shots have been fired) and doesn't appear to make the firing rate any faster. So, I wouldn't consider that cheating.

lgb · Post by **lgb** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:57 pm

Note to self: opinion is fact.

bkk · Post by **bkk** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:21 pm

Is it cheating to mod a console for RGB when it is meant to output only composite?

Post by **Ghegs** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:29 pm

bkk wrote:Is it cheating to mod a console for RGB when it is meant to output only composite?

If it is, all my Famicom gaming is nothing but one huge cheat-a-thon.

SFKhoa · Post by **SFKhoa** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:31 pm

I like to milk bosses, is that cheating for score?

FIL · Post by **FIL** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:49 pm

I've played in mame leagues that would consider it cheating, yes.

lgb · Post by **lgb** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:02 pm

Ghegs wrote:
bkk wrote:Is it cheating to mod a console for RGB when it is meant to output only composite?
If it is, all my Famicom gaming is nothing but one huge cheat-a-thon.

And using a bigger TV is cheating because the developers didn't anticipate that, did they?

If you want to be a jerk about it, then yes it is, on a technical level. The same with modchips/boot discs or third party controllers.

PC Engine Fan X! · Post by **PC Engine Fan X!** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:12 pm

Using one of those cool external autofire PCBs with a Jamma setup, it does give some of those older arcade shmup titles like Konami's A-Jax/Typhoon and Data East's Darwin 4078 PCB a new lease on life since they weren't endowed with autofire from the get-go. ^_~

I recall playing on some Galaga cabinets where the arcade operators installed an autofire chip hack...it does change the gameplay dynamics compared to playing it without autofire. Same thing could be said with Konami's Time Pilot/Time Pilot '84 arcade games...autofire does help out quite a bit indeed. Saves wear 'n' tear on the player's hands/fingers. ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

Zeether · Post by **Zeether** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:18 pm

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=9278

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:43 pm

If you use autofire in non-autofire shmups, the original game devs will hire the Yakuza to hunt you down and murder you in your sleep.

True story.

Sonic R · Post by **Sonic R** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:43 pm

I use auto fire. and I couldn't give a fuck if it is cheating. The highest level shooting players in Japan use it. So are they score tainted?

I suffer from severe hand injuries as a youth and my right hand has deformity. Auto fire help me have comfort and play good. So it may help me do better? Fuck it.
Call me Barry Bonds.

I am juicing on a new level now. I have been using auto fire in Shooting Love and am now able to have comfort and ease in the mini games challenge. A-Rod bitches… My scores are rising on a new level… I'm a go play some more now… Fuck the right way its all about living wrong anyways…

Aw yeah…

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:48 pm

Sonic R wrote:I suffer from severe hand injuries as a youth and my right hand has deformity. Auto fire help me have comfort and play good. So it may help me do better? Fuck it.
Call me Barry Bonds.

lgb says that's a motherfuckin' trophy, man. Cherish it.

lgb wrote:
Ghegs wrote:
bkk wrote:Is it cheating to mod a console for RGB when it is meant to output only composite?
If it is, all my Famicom gaming is nothing but one huge cheat-a-thon.
And using a bigger TV is cheating because the developers didn't anticipate that, did they?

If you want to be a jerk about it, then yes it is, on a technical level. The same with modchips/boot discs or third party controllers.

infinite leeching in a game that allows it != not cheating

imo if one hand isn't clasped around your dick while trying to control your ship and fire at the same time with your other hand you're fucking cheating

PC Engine Fan X! · Post by **PC Engine Fan X!** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:48 pm

Udderdude wrote:If you use autofire in non-autofire shmups, the original game devs will hire the Yakuza to hunt you down and murder you in your sleep.

True story.

Ah, it would easy to spot them with their garish Hawaiian shirt attire coming down the road. Beat Takashi's Sonatine film comes to mind...a classic. ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

croikle · Post by **croikle** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:04 pm

Twiddle wrote:imo if one hand isn't clasped around your dick while trying to control your ship and fire at the same time with your other hand you're fucking cheating

New high score challenge table coming up...

What game, though?

Autofire in older shmups

Autofire in older shmups

The 411 on autofiring rates on 1986 Capcom's Sidearms PCB