introducing Duality ZF

[sjewkestheloon]

Matthew, any news on this? I'm eager to hear how you are getting along.

[Xonatron]

You are right to hold on to the product and polish it, as you only get one chance to make a first impression.

Because we are not experienced as developers, we decided to go with the "release early, release often" strategy that is common in the open source world. As a result, we got roasted because Chacker had a lot of bugs. OTOH, we now know what we need to fix (in terms of bugs, as well as gameplay and graphics) from the issues raised in the roasting.

Wow, your game did get roasted! You guys are cruel! But, truth being truth, it was rightfully so. You just have to read through the insults and grab some constructive critical content out of it. I hope our first attempt passes the test. In light of Dream Build Play 2009, we might do a sequel of Duality sooner than expected. I am not sure if six months is long enough wait to release a sequel, but our sequel will be a vast improvement over the first game (not merely just new stages).

i agree with everthing you said, BUT bear in mind that you'll never be happy with your product... it will never be perfect for you, no matter what you do, add or delete from it...

so yeah, take your time guys, just remember, when you feel you've achieved your goals with the game, release it... its usually better to remove features at the end of the proccess than adding them (you can do both, ofcourse!).

Good points and I've concluded the same, which is that we will never by happy with the results. This game is only half of what we have envisioned in our heads, but even the best of the best did not make it there first release. So this is ok. And the game is fun, which is what matters. And it shows potential, another huge point. For 400 points, I think it's well worth the price.

Unfortunately, against your good points, we *are* adding features at the end, and that's what we are waiting for to release it. This game will be "rushed" in the sense of comparing to an Xbox LIVE Arcade title, so any additional time we are taking is actually nothing in comparison to what it would take as a "more professional" release.

Matthew, any news on this? I'm eager to hear how you are getting along.

We should have some videos up soon. I'll post them to all the Duality: ZF threads here. We are working on one final can't-do-without feature (online scoreboards) as well as some gameplay tweaks and touchups. After that we might try to polish the UI a bit.

[Xonatron]

Why I ever put that release date in my signature, I don't know. It will be April 2009 for sure.

Maybe I should have taken id Software's "it will be done when it's done" approach...

[sjewkestheloon]

Great stuff! Looking forward to the teaser trailers.

[Kaspal]

Why I ever put that release date in my signature, I don't know. It will be April 2009 for sure.

Maybe I should have taken id Software's "it will be done when it's done" approach...

in my opinion, you should take it off... im gettin annoyed by it.

i mean, i know delays in game dev. are everydays stuff... it happens in most (if not any) project, but being an indie dev, haviing announce the game to be released 4 months ago and stuff, and then changin the release date every month is gettin ridiculous for me.

it may sound silly, but whenever that happens, i just drop support for the dev of the game, i may still play it, but maybe i wont buy it anymore.

in my very case (cuz i know someone will quote me and try to crush my oppinions), im avoiding loggin onto LIVE cuz i dont wanna spend my hard earned MSPs cuz i wanted to buy your game, but i dont really know how much longer i'll stand the itch.

so, yeah, take your time if you need it, but at least, stop changin the god damned release date and just release it when its effing done.

[Xonatron]

Kaspal, I just have to say I really appreciate that you are, or were, holding off spending your hard earned points for our game. It's more than we ever could have hoped or asked for. If we have taken too long, it is unfortunate if we were to lose your support, but please realize (not that you don't, but for anyone who may be reading) each decision we have made, including posting what we thought to be the release date of the game, has always been in the best interest of the game and in the best interest of getting the game done and delivered in the highest quality possible by our two-man team. The release dates were never a joke to us. We still hope to not disappoint upon actual release. We know that nobody else can see whether or not these decisions are good ones, only we can. So unfortunately you have to talk our word on it. In the end, the game should speak for itself.

[Kaspal]

Kaspal, I just have to say I really appreciate that you are, or were, holding off spending your hard earned points for our game. It's more than we ever could have hoped or asked for. If we have taken too long, it is unfortunate if we were to lose your support, but please realize (not that you don't, but for anyone who may be reading) each decision we have made, including posting what we thought to be the release date of the game, has always been in the best interest of the game and in the best interest of getting the game done and delivered in the highest quality possible by our two-man team. The release dates were never a joke to us. We still hope to not disappoint upon actual release. We know that nobody else can see whether or not these decisions are good ones, only we can. So unfortunately you have to talk our word on it. In the end, the game should speak for itself.

when you post videos, pix and release dates of a game, you're creatin hype... the very concept of your game, got me really hyped... so much that when the community games were first released, i bough 4000 MSPs just to get some of those, yours included.

when it got delayed the 1st time (sayin it 'd be out 20 days later) i said: its ok, i can take it, and shit happens.

when you delayed somethin like 10-15 more days, i didnt mind, cuz i was on vcations so i didnt even had the console with me.

you delayed it once more, but my X360 was dead (one nasty error i got sorted out later), so i was thinkin on buyin a arcade console to conserve the ones i already bought and yours that was scheduled to be released then in feb... you dont know, but i can assure you that when i got (FINALLY) my console repaired, the 1st thing i did (besides tryin it out once again, to see that everyhing was ok... and play some Castle Crashers too ) was to check if your game has been released already. to my surprise, it got delayed ONCE MORE!!!

bought another 4000 MSPs (cuz i wanted to buy your game, and some others that i had in queue, like Alien Homminid and R-Type), so again i told myself "its ok... if they're holding it to add better stuff and make a better experience for the game, its ok with me... lets hope this time they DO release it in march".

i think you read my comments about your delays in march.

now, delayin it ONCE AGAIN just gets annoying for me... i'd say i wont play your game ever, but thats a lie, cuz im hyped, and when it comes to shmups, if they are any good, i like to support devs. but trust me, i rather wait til you say "hey guys, its done!", than havin this nonsensical release date monthly change, that really gets on my nerves.

for stuff like that, i didnt buy Nanostray 2, even tho, i saw it on stores a couple times. not like they miss my 2 cents... but thats just the way it is with me. a lil childish some might say, may be so... but again, thats just me.... i dont like devs playin with me, by hyping me, and making me feel like a thirsty lad begging for a cup of water in the middle of the desert.

EDIT: i got one sugestion for you. since you're still devvin' the game, you can add a feature that will keep count of the ammount of time played on the game, so when you reach 1 hour of total play time in the demo, the demo stops runnin, and i can send you a big SCREW YOU GUYS over the net.

PS: yep... im pissed, and i needed to let it out.

[Xonatron]

Technical details:

Once we decided to not release the 200 pt Duality: ZF "version 1", and move directly to create the 400 pt feature-rich Duality: ZF "version 2", we have only changed the release date twice, the second time occuring in the post where I mentioned it myself. It had only happened once before that post.

So skipping that entire first game accounts for a lot of release date bumps.

In hindsight, all I can hope is that gamers understand the complete bypassing of the first version. And if they do not, we cannot change it. We know this amplified the "when is this game going to be released?" syndrome.

And, as for hype, wow... We haven't even begun to hype the game yet. The majority of gamers that will buy this game have not yet heard of it. You "shmups forums" crew are the few that knew about us right off the bat, and have actually played a part in the process of making the game.

And no worries about being pissed. It is probably a good thing that someone can get mad at our game not being released, yet. Not that I intended for this to happen, but it shows that hyping the game does work to some degree.

Patience my friend!

[sjewkestheloon]

Kaspal, I just have to say I really appreciate that you are, or were, holding off spending your hard earned points for our game. It's more than we ever could have hoped or asked for. If we have taken too long, it is unfortunate if we were to lose your support, but please realize (not that you don't, but for anyone who may be reading) each decision we have made, including posting what we thought to be the release date of the game, has always been in the best interest of the game and in the best interest of getting the game done and delivered in the highest quality possible by our two-man team. The release dates were never a joke to us. We still hope to not disappoint upon actual release. We know that nobody else can see whether or not these decisions are good ones, only we can. So unfortunately you have to talk our word on it. In the end, the game should speak for itself.

when you post videos, pix and release dates of a game, you're creatin hype... the very concept of your game, got me really hyped... so much that when the community games were first released, i bough 4000 MSPs just to get some of those, yours included.

when it got delayed the 1st time (sayin it 'd be out 20 days later) i said: its ok, i can take it, and shit happens.

when you delayed somethin like 10-15 more days, i didnt mind, cuz i was on vcations so i didnt even had the console with me.

you delayed it once more, but my X360 was dead (one nasty error i got sorted out later), so i was thinkin on buyin a arcade console to conserve the ones i already bought and yours that was scheduled to be released then in feb... you dont know, but i can assure you that when i got (FINALLY) my console repaired, the 1st thing i did (besides tryin it out once again, to see that everyhing was ok... and play some Castle Crashers too ) was to check if your game has been released already. to my surprise, it got delayed ONCE MORE!!!

bought another 4000 MSPs (cuz i wanted to buy your game, and some others that i had in queue, like Alien Homminid and R-Type), so again i told myself "its ok... if they're holding it to add better stuff and make a better experience for the game, its ok with me... lets hope this time they DO release it in march".

i think you read my comments about your delays in march.

now, delayin it ONCE AGAIN just gets annoying for me... i'd say i wont play your game ever, but thats a lie, cuz im hyped, and when it comes to shmups, if they are any good, i like to support devs. but trust me, i rather wait til you say "hey guys, its done!", than havin this nonsensical release date monthly change, that really gets on my nerves.

for stuff like that, i didnt buy Nanostray 2, even tho, i saw it on stores a couple times. not like they miss my 2 cents... but thats just the way it is with me. a lil childish some might say, may be so... but again, thats just me.... i dont like devs playin with me, by hyping me, and making me feel like a thirsty lad begging for a cup of water in the middle of the desert.

EDIT: i got one sugestion for you. since you're still devvin' the game, you can add a feature that will keep count of the ammount of time played on the game, so when you reach 1 hour of total play time in the demo, the demo stops runnin, and i can send you a big SCREW YOU GUYS over the net.

PS: yep... im pissed, and i needed to let it out.

Not being funny mate but there's no need to be a twat about this. Surely you have a modicum of patience and other games to play in the mean time?

[null1024]

I think he [kaspal] just doesn't want it to become another Duke Nukem Forever.
Release date: end of time.

Also, this game is another reason for me to get a 360.

[TodayIsForgotten]

I wouldn't worry about the game being pushed back. That's the beauty of time. It either happens or it doesnt and either way we'll soon forget after a certain amount of time. I wouldn't take it so hard Kaspal or atleast not make it seem like that through "misleading" text. Patience. Patience.

[Jason]

Hey guys.

I appreciate that anyone is excited and saving money for our game. I don't expect this. Please don't save your money. I don't want to leave people hanging and waiting.

This is our first commercial game. We're learning things take more time than we expect. Plus we keep recognizing from play testing that there are key features missing, so the TODO list grows. The last play test showed people were surprised to find out that it was a home-brew game, so the additional features matter.

Please don't save your money. When the game is done, either you'll have the money for it or not. Worst case is you can play the free trial. If you really like it, maybe you can buy it later, but, we don't expect you to.

Marketing is a difficult thing from a developer's perspective. Generating hype is not something I want to do before it's done. I don't want to release videos before it's done. Artists don't show off their artwork when it's half done. But I feel the pressure that I must. I hate release dates. But hype lets people know about the game and allows it a chance for success. But when there's hype, there's pressure to release the game before it's ready. I'm glad I haven't caved in to that pressure, because even the little things that we're adding now -- such as cool indications of damage -- add so much to the end experience that the game feels flat without it.

[Kaspal]

Hey guys.

I appreciate that anyone is excited and saving money for our game. I don't expect this. Please don't save your money. I don't want to leave people hanging and waiting.

This is our first commercial game. We're learning things take more time than we expect. Plus we keep recognizing from play testing that there are key features missing, so the TODO list grows. The last play test showed people were surprised to find out that it was a home-brew game, so the additional features matter.

Please don't save your money. When the game is done, either you'll have the money for it or not. Worst case is you can play the free trial. If you really like it, maybe you can buy it later, but, we don't expect you to.

Marketing is a difficult thing from a developer's perspective. Generating hype is not something I want to do before it's done. I don't want to release videos before it's done. Artists don't show off their artwork when it's half done. But I feel the pressure that I must. I hate release dates. But hype lets people know about the game and allows it a chance for success. But when there's hype, there's pressure to release the game before it's ready. I'm glad I haven't caved in to that pressure, because even the little things that we're adding now -- such as cool indications of damage -- add so much to the end experience that the game feels flat without it.

ok i wont save my money... too bad i already spent 50 bux in MSPs in hopes i could buy your game in the announced (now temptative) date. can i get a refund?.

and yes, i hate release dates too... specially, when theres delay after delay.

one way of avoiding leavin ppl hangin and stuff, is not announcing bogus dates... thats the easy way.-- i think you get my whole point now.

[Jason]

Kaspal, the release dates slipped mainly because the game was changed drastically -- there are now SIX game modes, not just one, the THREE control modes for each of those modes, not just two. All of them need to work properly in ALL difficulty modes, and from ONE to TWO to FOUR to EIGHT simultaneous fighters. That's a lot of modes of possible play, to ensure difficulties are just right -- not too easy, and not too hard. It's a LOT of testing. The release date was pushed back because you are now going to get 10x -- literally -- more game as a result. We are not ashamed of this. You will be happy for all of this additional content. This is why we've needed more time.

It will be the best buy for 400 points!

I appreciate everyone's feedback, good or bad!
Thanks for your time.

[Plastic]

Hey guys.

I appreciate that anyone is excited and saving money for our game. I don't expect this. Please don't save your money. I don't want to leave people hanging and waiting.

This is our first commercial game. We're learning things take more time than we expect. Plus we keep recognizing from play testing that there are key features missing, so the TODO list grows. The last play test showed people were surprised to find out that it was a home-brew game, so the additional features matter.

Please don't save your money. When the game is done, either you'll have the money for it or not. Worst case is you can play the free trial. If you really like it, maybe you can buy it later, but, we don't expect you to.

Marketing is a difficult thing from a developer's perspective. Generating hype is not something I want to do before it's done. I don't want to release videos before it's done. Artists don't show off their artwork when it's half done. But I feel the pressure that I must. I hate release dates. But hype lets people know about the game and allows it a chance for success. But when there's hype, there's pressure to release the game before it's ready. I'm glad I haven't caved in to that pressure, because even the little things that we're adding now -- such as cool indications of damage -- add so much to the end experience that the game feels flat without it.

ok i wont save my money... too bad i already spent 50 bux in MSPs in hopes i could buy your game in the announced (now temptative) date. can i get a refund?.

and yes, i hate release dates too... specially, when theres delay after delay.

one way of avoiding leavin ppl hangin and stuff, is not announcing bogus dates... thats the easy way.-- i think you get my whole point now.

You really are being ridiculous/childish...

I'm not a huge fan of the graphic style, but the gameplay looks absolutely great. May have to finally pick up an Xbox 360...

[the2bears]

ok i wont save my money... too bad i already spent 50 bux in MSPs in hopes i could buy your game in the announced (now temptative) date. can i get a refund?.

and yes, i hate release dates too... specially, when theres delay after delay.

one way of avoiding leavin ppl hangin and stuff, is not announcing bogus dates... thats the easy way.-- i think you get my whole point now.

I get your point, you're a real arse, aren't you? You can't stop from spending MSPs, so that's somehow these guys' fault? These guys don't owe you a thing, and you're being a real jerk about this whole thing.

Bill

[Pixel_Outlaw]

@ Kaspal

Find a pencil sharpener and stick that little nub of yours in it. Grind vigorously.

[Kaspal]

@ Kaspal

Find a pencil sharpener and stick that little nub of yours in it. Grind vigorously.

i'd rather stick a marker on your nub... and grind vigorously... i know you'll enjoy it more.

I get your point, you're a real arse, aren't you? You can't stop from spending MSPs, so that's somehow these guys' fault? These guys don't owe you a thing, and you're being a real jerk about this whole thing.

Bill

is not that i cant stop from spending them, is just that the last batch i got, among other things i got them 'cuz of their game... and then, they delay the release of the thinggy... i think at least i need to let that thing out and let them know that while its ok that they can delay the thing as much as they fuckin can, it'd be great if they stopped posting the damn temptative release dates... thats what annoyes me the most.

if i cant say it, well... i already said it, so theres nothing that you or anyone can do about it. if thats by deffinition being a jerk, well, i am... who isnt a jerk at some point in life anyways?.

You really are being ridiculous/childish...

i know... if you've got a problem with it, well, suck it up.

cheers.

[sjewkestheloon]

@ Kaspal

Find a pencil sharpener and stick that little nub of yours in it. Grind vigorously.

i'd rather stick a marker on your nub... and grind vigorously... i know you'll enjoy it more.

I get your point, you're a real arse, aren't you? You can't stop from spending MSPs, so that's somehow these guys' fault? These guys don't owe you a thing, and you're being a real jerk about this whole thing.

Bill

is not that i cant stop from spending them, is just that the last batch i got, among other things i got them 'cuz of their game... and then, they delay the release of the thinggy... i think at least i need to let that thing out and let them know that while its ok that they can delay the thing as much as they fuckin can, it'd be great if they stopped posting the damn temptative release dates... thats what annoyes me the most.

if i cant say it, well... i already said it, so theres nothing that you or anyone can do about it. if thats by deffinition being a jerk, well, i am... who isnt a jerk at some point in life anyways?.

You really are being ridiculous/childish...

i know... if you've got a problem with it, well, suck it up.

cheers.

I'm normally quite a placid person but boo-fucking-hoo to you, you miserable complaining git.

[dmauro]

ok i wont save my money... too bad i already spent 50 bux in MSPs in hopes i could buy your game in the announced (now temptative) date. can i get a refund?..

I hope you guys aren't considering this guy's opinion at all. Don't feel obligated to reply to him either.

[Kaspal]

@ Kaspal

Find a pencil sharpener and stick that little nub of yours in it. Grind vigorously.

i'd rather stick a marker on your nub... and grind vigorously... i know you'll enjoy it more.

I get your point, you're a real arse, aren't you? You can't stop from spending MSPs, so that's somehow these guys' fault? These guys don't owe you a thing, and you're being a real jerk about this whole thing.

Bill

is not that i cant stop from spending them, is just that the last batch i got, among other things i got them 'cuz of their game... and then, they delay the release of the thinggy... i think at least i need to let that thing out and let them know that while its ok that they can delay the thing as much as they fuckin can, it'd be great if they stopped posting the damn temptative release dates... thats what annoyes me the most.

if i cant say it, well... i already said it, so theres nothing that you or anyone can do about it. if thats by deffinition being a jerk, well, i am... who isnt a jerk at some point in life anyways?.

You really are being ridiculous/childish...

i know... if you've got a problem with it, well, suck it up.

cheers.

I'm normally quite a placid person but boo-fucking-hoo to you, you miserable complaining git.

actually, im quite a placid person tooo (not that i think you or anyone else believe me but, oh well!)... but when something gets o your nerves, you usually stop being like that. so thx for your comments.

I hope you guys aren't considering this guy's opinion at all. Don't feel obligated to reply to him either.

so when things get a lil outta hand, you just have to ignore "that jerk"?...

[TodayIsForgotten]

Alright alright. We have enough dick holes and assholes on every message forum. Lets leave the asshole remarks to the main forums.

Yes, I think Kaspal could simply leave his 5 bucks in ms points untouched for the game. Yes, i think Kaspal is portraying his anger after all it is a message board. Lets not resort to name calling or finger pointing. He made his point. SO did others.

[Xonatron]

I agree with TIF, we all made our points. We fully appreciate all of your support. As some of you are developers, you may very well understand our position. Our release date has been delayed and delayed more. That is a fact. What is also a fact is our game has gotten enormously better. And, what was once a single game is now six games. This is us giving you more bang for your buck. Needless to say, we absolutely do not feel we have ripped anyone off or have not caused the loss of any money. The game will be released. We surely have not ignored anyone on these forums, and have specifically addressed Kaspal's complaints. We came here to listen.

With that, the previous topic is complete from our perspective.

On to better news, we have released new screenshots of Duality: ZF:



















screenshots from:
New Duality: ZF Screenshots
http://xona.com/2009/03/31.html

[Ed Oscuro]

Eight independently controlled fighters at once. A 2D shooter first:

Does game have Friendly Fires? Where one player's ship shoots the other and causes damages.

On topic of the hour, the scrolling background: So it doesn't work like Thunder Force II when you have the multiple players and so it bounces every which way when somebody approaches the edge, right? Why not use honored tactic of the scrolling scenery, with cows (like Seibu Thunder & Lightning game) and other auspicious events going on the ground. It could be like Treasure games, where you see the excitement of futuristic buildings going past! I see...cheese wedges on the ground, in some of these screenshots, I think. Cheese that has been tasty, before.

Apologies if it's too late to change these issues, I guess they're for future consideration.

Keep up the good work please! Quality before a quick release, that's never a problem.

[dmauro]

Where'd your website go?

[Jason]

Where'd your website go?

It's back!

[Jason]

Does game have Friendly Fires? Where one player's ship shoots the other and causes damages.

No way! That'd be like Contra having friendly fire. Each fighter's maximum firepower covers the entire screen.

Or did you mean 'combination fire' like Raiden, where the firepower increases when bullets bounce off each other's fighters? We don't have this. Ideas are in the works for version 2 though.

On topic of the hour, the scrolling background: So it doesn't work like Thunder Force II when you have the multiple players and so it bounces every which way when somebody approaches the edge, right?

The play area is wider than the screen. I've played around with a LOT of camera motions, including Thunder Force II (which didn't have multi-player) and it falls apart with multi-player. Now, the view attempts to show the most area around the active players in a smooth manner.

Why not use honored tactic of the scrolling scenery, with cows (like Seibu Thunder & Lightning game) and other auspicious events going on the ground. It could be like Treasure games, where you see the excitement of futuristic buildings going past! I see...cheese wedges on the ground, in some of these screenshots, I think. Cheese that has been tasty, before.

We don't have the resources for all of that. If we had a dedicated artist for our game, we would do these things. I think what we got from what we have (2 programmers) is more than originally expected.

Cheese wedges?

[worstplayer]

Looks like delays were worth it after all. This looks completely crazy.

[Square King]

Looks like delays were worth it after all. This looks completely crazy.

Totally agree. This will be a pleasant surprise later this month. And 400 measly points? Awesome.

[Ed Oscuro]

Each fighter's maximum firepower covers the entire screen.

Eh, can't a single person park their ship somewhere and clear everything then? Or are there tons of insane enemies that soak up everything you can throw at them point-blank?

Now, the view attempts to show the most area around the active players in a smooth manner.

Like a Samurai Spirits zoom?