Miyamoto: Games are too long

[FatCobra]

I like the DS, but most of the games out for it seem more like tech demos than actual games....

Of course I will have a forthing demand for it once MarioKart DS and Zelda DS are out for it.

[kong]

Where is this glut of games that take forever to finish? The gaming landscape is filled with tons of games of varying play times. I just don't see a trend towards overly long games. In fact I think the number of ridiculously short games balances out the few games that take a lifetime to finish. You simply can't please everybody when it comes to game length. Miyamoto sounds like an old jaded game designer if you ask me. Good luck pushing $60 games down peoples throats if they are over in a matter of a few hours.

He didn't say Pikmin sucked he said it was incredibly short. For $50-$60 I want a game that lasts more than 4-5 hours or it better have incredible replay value.

[neorichieb1971]

Its not about how long a game is though that I think he is bashing.

Its the storyline driven content.

I think Miyamoto just wants simple ideas and concepts like shmups really. Where you actually get better at a game rather than just complete it.

Like Crazy Taxi for example. That uses good 3D graphics, needs to be learned and is really fun to play (if you like that sort of thing).

[FatCobra]

I think Miyamoto just wants simple ideas and concepts like shmups really. Where you actually get better at a game rather than just complete it.

Like Crazy Taxi for example. That uses good 3D graphics, needs to be learned and is really fun to play (if you like that sort of thing).

Miyamoto helped create the old school gaming spirit after all. So I'd think he has a right to be jaded.

I love Crazy Taxi.

[Dylan1CC]

EDIT: I will add, thank goodness Metroid Prime 3 may be at launch, the Rev NEEDS both a Mario adventure and a Metroid adventure at launch to get a good foothold.

I take Miyamoto less and less seriously as the years roll on. That's not to say I don't have the utmost admiration and respect for him as a game designer, when it comes to games he made some of me, my brother and sister's fondest childhood memories. But he isn't really a game designer anymore, he just kind of goes around to all the different teams giving general input and making annoying statements like the above. And all statements like the above will do is make me worry that Mario 128 will be even shorter than Mario Sunshine and not the Mario 64 killer it should be.

This "pick up and play" works only for some games, otherwise if Nintendo keeps it up, they're gonna be viewed as little more than a minigame factory (profitable yes). It's very telling Zelda TTP which looks even more epic and vast than TOoT is being exclusively done by Aonuma. Miyamoto seems more interested these days in being a supervisor or "fun PR personality" for E3 trot outs who makes vague statements that sound artistic or interesting on the surface, but to the more discerning or jaded ear it sounds like he'd be more happy making really exotic children's toys.

[sethsez]

Miyamoto has a goofy grin and attatches his names to projects he's barely involved with.

Is there really anything else worth mentioning about him these days?

[FatCobra]

True. I don't consider Nintendo to be as good as they used to since the N64.

What where they thinking making the N64 cart-based in a CD-based world?!? It was a freakin' dinosaur and pissed off alot of third party support. That somewhat of a failure of a system convinced me to buy a Playstation. (Hey, I was a big RPG addict back then).

[Nemo]

I was referring to a real person, not a superplay made with thousands of savestates and recorderd inputs.

I've done it in 23 minutes, I like to see someone beat a modern game in that amount of time.

The real problem with gaming is it's all simulation BS, companies need to return to making arcade-style games.

[FatCobra]

The real problem with gaming is it's all simulation BS, companies need to return to making arcade-style games.

That's IT!!! That is what I might be bitching about!! The old school spirit that seems to be sorely lacking today is simply called by another name!! Ah-hah!!

Simulation is boring, I play videogames to escape reality when boredom rears its ugly head.

[sethsez]

I was referring to a real person, not a superplay made with thousands of savestates and recorderd inputs.

I've done it in 23 minutes, I like to see someone beat a modern game in that amount of time.

The real problem with gaming is it's all simulation BS, companies need to return to making arcade-style games.

Morrowind can be beaten in under fifteen minutes.

And there's no way you can beat Mario 3 in 23 minutes without using the warp whistles, which are supposed to be secrets and skip over the vast majority of the game's actual content.

[Nemo]

I was referring to a real person, not a superplay made with thousands of savestates and recorderd inputs.

I've done it in 23 minutes, I like to see someone beat a modern game in that amount of time.

The real problem with gaming is it's all simulation BS, companies need to return to making arcade-style games.

Morrowind can be beaten in under fifteen minutes.

And there's no way you can beat Mario 3 in 23 minutes without using the warp whistles, which are supposed to be secrets and skip over the vast majority of the game's actual content.

Of course I use the warp whistles, but in how many games do you actually do all the content in order to beat it, or even enjoy it. In the run I basically play through 3 of the 8 worlds, can you beat Morrowind in under 15 mins. by playing through 3/8ths of that game's content?

[sethsez]

No, but if the only goal is to get to the end of the game then who cares how much content you actually see along the way? I play Mario 3 because I love the levels, not because I love the end credits.

[FatCobra]

No, but if the only goal is to get to the end of the game then who cares how much content you actually see along the way? I play Mario 3 because I love the levels, not because I love the end credits.

I remember having 6-hour marathon sessions with Mario 3 on the NES because it didn't have a save feature and I wanted to play it thru all worlds.

I think the lack of the save feature on the NES is why Nintendo threw those whistles in the first place, but kept them kinda secert so only the better players could find them (this is before the internet became fully realized).

[sethsez]

I agree. The whistles are great if you just want to skip to your favorite world, but they're not really a fair measure of how quickly the game can be beaten. Sure, you can see the end credits, but if you've skipped past the majority of the game's content then what's the point? I mean, it makes for great bragging rights, but it's not really an accurate judgement of the game's length. Playing through all of Mario 3 can take quite a long time if you're not a perfect player, and it's time well spent (well, as far as gaming goes).

[incognoscente]

...
But he isn't really a game designer anymore, he just kind of goes around to all the different teams giving general input and making annoying statements like the above.
...

Kinda like Warren Spector--haha!

[Nemo]

No, but if the only goal is to get to the end of the game then who cares how much content you actually see along the way? I play Mario 3 because I love the levels, not because I love the end credits.

I love the levels in Mario 3 too, but for their challenge. I don't sit there and say, "Aww, that was a pretty goomba I just whallopped." The game is fun because of how it challenges your skill and what greater challenge is there in a game like Mario 3 than trying to beat it as fast as possible, metriculating its obstacles in the shortest amount of time without dying. Does everyone have to play this way? Of course not, but the beauty is that even if you play every last level you still only have a 2-2.5 hour game. The beauty of old-school games is that you have short, simple in structure games that allow the player to define his own replay value in them.

[sethsez]

Except people still speedrun modern games, and many can be beaten in under an hour (a speedrun of Gunstar Heroes takes 41 minutes, while a speedrun of Half-Life takes 45).

And I disagree about the greatest challenge being beating the game as fast as possible, simply because you don't actually play most of the game. That's why I find speedruns of Mario 3 to be so dull most of the time... there's absolutely no skill in just skipping past worlds 2-7. Sure, I guess it's technically more legit than entering a level select code, but I personally consider it just as pointless in an actual skill run. I'm much more interested in runs that beat every single level as quickly as possible.

[Nemo]

Except people still speedrun modern games, and many can be beaten in under an hour.

And I disagree about the greatest challenge being beating the game as fast as possible, simply because you don't actually play most of the game. That's why I find speedruns of Mario 3 to be so dull most of the time... there's absolutely no skill in just skipping past worlds 2-7. Sure, I guess it's technically more legit than entering a level select code, but I personally consider it just as pointless in an actual skill run. I'm much more interested in runs that beat every single level as quickly as possible.

The biggest challenge of the speedrun comes from doing it w/o losing a life. And old-school games generally have a difficulty progression so World 8 in SMB3 is harder than any previous world, and if you have beaten it, then you've handled its greatest challenges.

[sethsez]

I dunno, Worlds 3, 5, 6 and 7 all offer completely different challenges than 8 does, and I actually find them generally more difficult.

[FatCobra]

Except people still speedrun modern games, and many can be beaten in under an hour (a speedrun of Gunstar Heroes takes 41 minutes, while a speedrun of Half-Life takes 45).

And I disagree about the greatest challenge being beating the game as fast as possible, simply because you don't actually play most of the game. That's why I find speedruns of Mario 3 to be so dull most of the time... there's absolutely no skill in just skipping past worlds 2-7. Sure, I guess it's technically more legit than entering a level select code, but I personally consider it just as pointless in an actual skill run. I'm much more interested in runs that beat every single level as quickly as possible.

Of course, we are talking about games with defined levels, but what about those that have sandbox gameplay (like GTA and Morrowind)?

I'm guessing the guy that did the Morrowind speed run must have used a fast character (a male Argonian with the Steed Sign and Speed as a favored stat and Athletics as a Major skill would create a pretty damn quick character), used alot of glitches to his advantage, and took the backdoor route of the main quest (grabbing the key items and heading straight to the final area). That does take skill and luck. Skipping all of the nessicary quests does shorten the game quite a bit doesn't it?

Alot of the quests seems kinda pointless and repetitive anyway (go to point A, kill guy B, bring back item C to point D). Well, Morrowind is the kind of game where you can do nothing but just explore on your own and still have a fun experience, but what about GTA? At first I thought it was in the same situtation as Morrowind, what with the sandbox gameplay and all, but there's the missions, which are structured and unskippable, unlike Morrowind's main quest. Therefore, it's possible to speed run a GTA game, and not miss alot of the content.

As for Miyamoto wanting simpler games, I kinda agree with him. To me, just playing a videogame is part of the fun, what I am doing is the other. But put too much fluff in, and it'll become boring.

EDIT: Oh and by the way, World 4 in Mario 3 was always my favorite, followed by World 6.

[sethsez]

I don't think he used glitches. He just REALLY abused potions.

And I can't pick my favorite World. I love them all.

[FatCobra]

I don't think he used glitches. He just REALLY abused potions.

And I can't pick my favorite World. I love them all.

Hehe.....his character was a big drug addict. Now I have a mental image of a hopped up lizardman running at crackhead speed and saving the world 15 minutes after he got off the boat. Bet he's gonna wake up with a bad hangover and wonder WTF he's been called the savior of the world.

I love all the worlds of Mario 3, but World 4 (for it's large enemies) and World 6 (for it's difficulty) totally blew me away when I first played them.

[Vexorg]

Here's the speed demo of Morrowind: 14:26, to be exact. Save the world and find your destiny, all while you wait for your oil to be changed:

http://speeddemosarchive.com/Morrowind.html

[Dylan1CC]

I will add, I wish Miyamoto would jump back in the trenches and really fully produce and design a game with one of the teams hands-on. I'm sure he will be more involved with the Rev's initial games.

[Thunder Force]

UK Resistance once again provides critical analysis on the issue

[Dartagnan1083]

I agree with him. 50+ hours for an RPG is too fucking long. The stories ALWAYS suck, so who cares? Give me a good battle system, good characters, some fun stuff to find, crappy story, make it under 30 hours, and I'm happy.

I spent over 90 hours with Dark Cloud 2,
and I'm still not finished.
This is all on the same save file.
Plenty to enjoy there, even with a plotline that's horrid compared to Final Fantasy.

[FatCobra]

I agree with him. 50+ hours for an RPG is too fucking long. The stories ALWAYS suck, so who cares? Give me a good battle system, good characters, some fun stuff to find, crappy story, make it under 30 hours, and I'm happy.

I spent over 90 hours with Dark Cloud 2,
and I'm still not finished.
This is all on the same save file.
Plenty to enjoy there, even with a plotline that's horrid compared to Final Fantasy.

I'm guessing most of those 90 hours were spent leveling up your weapons?

[PaCrappa]

I like short games too.

Pa

[EddyMRA]

EDIT: I moved this reply to this thread, where it's more appropriate.

[Turrican]

I used to start and finish Super Mario World in roughly an afternoon, and getting each time all the 96 stages. It was a lot of fun. Of course you needed some practice in order to make this a routine.

But anyway, Miyamoto, here's my two cents. If I actually weight his words for what he's saying, then he's right, of course. That's probably the reason FF Tactics was the last of its genre I could finish.

However, it is not like all the games out there are too long: I still see the 20+ hours like Metal Gear Solid 3, Metroid Prime or RE4 like a good time value.

However, regardless of what Miyamoto is saying, I'm concerned of the attitude of his. I really would like him to start coding a game from scratch and quit being the manager/spokeperson of the company.

I lived with years with a big dumbass dork that kept talking this nonsense and he was in charge at nintendo. Nintendo's offer was getting smaller in size, undeniably worse than their competitors as an overall system, with atrocious third party policies and clever moves like stick to cartridges...

And the more and more Nintendo's errors were evident to public, the more vocal and talkative and arrogant the old cranky geezer was getting.

Please Miyamoto, don't become another moralist chairman that speak nonsense. You created Mario, you can do better than whine about violence in games, loss of fun factor, too complicated joypads, or whatever.